Sahamamama Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) I've been wondering about the necessity of formal grammar study at all in the primary grades (K/1st/2nd), as well as the need for ongoing grammar study, year after year after year. Is formal grammar needed at this age? Last year in K, we worked through FLL 1 orally. This year we're working through FLL 2 for 1st grade. It hasn't killed us yet, we enjoy writing to grandparents and pen pals, my daughter has learned the parts of speech and some mechanics. But... What is the point of teaching parts of speech to a six year old? :confused: My student will be technically "ready" next school year (2nd grade) for FLL 3, but I'm having second thoughts about doing formal grammar with her for 2nd grade. In fact, I've even had the thought of not doing any more formal English grammar until 5th grade, when we might do JAG. Until then, we would continue doing what we now do -- read for 2+ hours daily; engage in attentive conversation; listen to audiobooks; memorize and recite poems and Bible passages; practice skills in cursive, copywork, dictation, spelling, narration, and storytelling; and write letters and stories to pen pals and grandparents. And start Latin gently (with PL) in 3rd grade. A possibility for 2nd grade (instead of FLL) might be MCT Grammar Island, which I know she would enjoy. We could come back to this story several times. It doesn't seem like a year's worth of "work" to me, but that's actually a good thing. Another option is to stop doubting The Method (e.g., early grammar instruction), and simply keep working through FLL 3 and/or R&S English 3. I suppose I need convincing that formal grammar instruction is necessary for a 2nd grader. Or not. :bigear: Edited to add: Sorry to ramble, really. I've had a terrible time with wrapping my head around what seems to be a seismic shift in my thinking about building a child's confidence and skills in the English (or native) language. I feel the WTM-way is more incremental and mechanical, less organic and poetic than this child particular needs it to be. Edited to also add: This particular child has spoken in complex, paragraph-length sentences with perfect articulation from the age of 18 months. People used to stop us in Home Depot to engage in conversations with her, because they got a kick out of this little girl speaking so clearly and well. She never said "throwed the ball." She never said "catched the ball." She always said, "I slept well," even though her grandmother asked, "Did you sleep good?" :D This child was born speaking the King's Perfect English, and my gut tells me that in 2nd we should read even more than we do now. And tell stories. But not do a formal grammar program.... I suppose this child is the reason why I feel this way. Hmmm... Edited August 2, 2011 by Sahamamama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I believe the WTM recommendation for early grammar is so that by time children are writing on their own, the grammar will be so automatic that you can talk about the parts of speech or various grammar mechanics when discussing their writing, and they won't have to think "Now what is that again?" That said, if you want to delay it, I don't think it will harm your child in any way. I'm doing grammar early, but once we finish the ALL series (in middle school, I think?), we'd be done with grammar. You could also do it like 8FillTheHeart does it - pointing out grammar in copywork as you do that, not using an actual program. I was just reading about how she does writing in this post and this post the other day. I can't see myself doing that yet because *I* need to relearn the grammar, so I'm doing a formal grammar program with my son, relearning it with him. :D Perhaps when I get to my 3rd child, I'll know grammar like the back of my hand and be able to just teach it via copywork like that. I think it's an excellent method! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 A possibility for 2nd grade (instead of FLL) might be MCT Grammar Island, which I know she would enjoy. We could come back to this story several times. It doesn't seem like a year's worth of "work" to me, but that's actually a good thing. This is the route we are taking with my poetic-organic son. A rising Second Grader, he has had a scant amount of grammar exposure in school (when I say scant I mean scant) and just before we started MCT (in mid-July) we discovered the fun old "Grammar-land" book by Nesbit. What he has learned in a couple weeks blows my mind! And it has been a lovely experience. I think you are on the right track here. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RootAnn Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I'm in the "don't teach formal grammar" until they are older camp. We start in 3rd. My kids are still young, so YMMV. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted August 2, 2011 Author Share Posted August 2, 2011 Boscopup, thank you for posting that link to 8fillstheheart's posts. I never would have found those without your link, trust me. Some people here the other day were talking about The Deep Web, and I was thinking, "Heck, I just got the shallow end figured out." :glare: Thanks for the feedback, SpyCar. Sometimes I think our children sound like identical boy-girl twins. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I would say that probably your dc doesn't need to. In fact, the authors of Writing Strands and Understanding Writing would agree with you. And I don't believe that native speakers of English need to study their own grammar for 12 years, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanceXToo Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 (edited) I think it can wait! ETA: Not sure if I'd wait til 5th but til 3rd or maybe even 4th? Sure! Edited August 2, 2011 by NanceXToo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I would not postpone it to 5th - but starting about 3rd grade does not seem "drastic" or "late" to me at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I must chuckle at the difference in perspective between WTM-land (where waiting until 2nd Grade to teach formal grammar is "delayed") and Public School-land where that same scenario seems terribly advanced. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I would not postpone it to 5th - but starting about 3rd grade does not seem "drastic" or "late" to me at all. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I have not seen Grammar Land. Do you think a download is adequate or should the child have this book in their hands physically versus digitally? Anything that cements the POS, I am all for it. :) I have a grammar-challenged daughter due to public school's remedial approach ... well, compared to WTM as Bill mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 I would not postpone it to 5th - but starting about 3rd grade does not seem "drastic" or "late" to me at all. :iagree: Also, have you seen the Ruth Heller grammar books? They are wonderful and poetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan in TN Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 We go through FLL in 1st and 2nd grades, but I don't emphasize the "grammar" part of it. We have fun memorizing definitions and doing the other lessons. We start R&S English in 3rd grade. With my 1st and 3rd children, this was fun for them and they love it and learn quickly. It was more of a struggle for my 2nd child - grammar and math just aren't her thing, but she got the basics. Generally, the plan is to go through R&S 6, and then in 7th-12th, we do some basic grammar review and go through books like Elements of Style, Style: Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace, Eats, Shoots, and Leaves, and Our Mother Tongue along with lots of writing instruction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Teaching the Trivium says wait. I don't have an opinion :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted August 3, 2011 Author Share Posted August 3, 2011 Teaching the Trivium says wait. I don't have an opinion :-) I'll bet you do. Want to pm me with it? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Teaching the Trivium says wait. I don't have an opinion :-) If the Bluedorns say wait, I would do the opposite :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I have not seen Grammar Land. Do you think a download is adequate or should the child have this book in their hands physically versus digitally? Anything that cements the POS, I am all for it. :) I have a grammar-challenged daughter due to public school's remedial approach ... well, compared to WTM as Bill mentioned. I downloaded my copy to my...er, um...iPad :tongue_smilie: Works great! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I downloaded my copy to my...er, um...iPad :tongue_smilie: Works great! Bill I was looking at the download. I haven't settled on a tablet yet. I keep hoping that Apple will buckle to the masses for flash support :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I was looking at the download. I haven't settled on a tablet yet. I keep hoping that Apple will buckle to the masses for flash support :lol: The masses have purchased 25 million iPads ;) :D You are late to the party! :party: Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrissySC Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 LOL @ Bill I have patience in my purchase. :P I will not download a 1.99 book for a few days to make sure that I want it. LOL I am not an impulse buyer. :) Those poor car salesmen. I think they run when they see me coming now too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I'll bet you do. Want to pm me with it? :D Honestly, my head is a whirl lately with all that I am reading. I am questioning some things I have thought for a long time and doing much more listening than talking/writing. I do know that I have not been taking the time to cement the basics and some of those basics go all the way back to grade 1. I think we are encouraged to race ahead too quickly and this forces us to abandon subjects that have not been mastered. Sometimes we are able to forge 6 years and even 10 years past where the hole is and we have no idea we need to go that far back and keep trying to attack the problem 1 or 2 or 3 years back. We waste much more time and grow hopeless. Some things I am having to fix because of my brain damage like my complete loss of 3rd grade division. But when working on fixing that, I learned about the additive method of carrying in subtraction and know I never learned that. Strayer-Upton 3/4 starts with the assumption that a student has had no formal math at all and I am learning things in the first 100 pages :-0 I just looked at the art pacs that are not published by Rod and Staff, but most of us think they are. I need to go back to grade 1. I am in love with WRTR and that is kindergarten? So if I had little ones right now and I had to have an opinion on what I would be doing THIS week, I would only be covering the grammar in WRTR or some other Spalding knock off, and working on making sure all the grade 1 and kindergarten stuff was covered. I think slow and steady wins the race, especially for 1st generation homeschoolers. I think we gain very little trying to keep up with families that either already have a stronger educational background or are choosing to skip essentials to plow ahead. I don't agree with everything the Bluedorns have to say, or The core, or LCC, or TWTM, but each books brings some balance and the Bluedorns certainly shouldn't be discarded entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I don't agree with everything the Bluedorns have to say, or The core, or LCC, or TWTM, but each books brings some balance and the Bluedorns certainly shouldn't be discarded entirely. Personally I haven't found any common ground with the Bluedorns and many points of strong disagreement, including their advocacy of delayed academics. I also don't think one can have "Classical" education if you throw out all the great works of the Greeks and the Romans because they were pagans. In my mind the Bluedorns offer up debased version of a Classical Education stripped of some of the greatest minds and writings in human history. Their vision doesn't deserve the the appendage of expropriated term "Classical" as a description of their eductional philosophy. I guess Classical sounds better than neo-Medieval or old-line Fundmentalist. I am sorry for all you have been through. Sounds rough. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Bill what do you think about their instructions on creating a language arts notebook? And a foreign language notebook? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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