Going from TT4 to Saxon 7/6

[Coffeetime]

My older ds will be attending a classical school in the fall. The school uses Saxon math but uses it a grade level ahead so he will be entering 5th grade and beginning Saxon 7/6. When he took the school's academic assessment at the beginning of summer, however, he didn't test into 7/6, and I didn't expect him to considering he was still finishing TT4. The school will place him in the 5th grade class because he did well in all other subjects, but during the summer they asked us to help him become fluent in long division and multi-digit multiplication. We've been working on these, along with keeping up with math facts, multiplication tables, computation of addition and subtraction with regrouping etc. and he's doing very well.

 

My question for Saxon users is: is it going to be enough for him to be fluent in those areas of computation or do you think he'll fall behind, considering the fact that he's basically skipping 5th grade math? I haven't seen Saxon 7/6 so I'm just unfamiliar with how much review there will be of concepts taught in 6/5. I've heard differing opinions and my main concern is that it will move too quickly for him to grasp concepts that may be new to him, but review to the rest of the class.

 

My idea was to also skim through a 5th grade text quickly this summer and just introduce things like divisibility, prime factorization etc... but every time I try to do so I just end up transferring my stress and doubt on to him (he's already a first born perfectionist who's afraid of failure:tongue_smilie: ) and then we're both stressed out! :willy_nilly:

 

Sorry, for the rambling...

Edited July 19, 2011 by Coffeetime

[TracyR]

This has been our experience and you can take it with a grain of salt but Saxon 7/6 is a difficult level.

My oldest went into 6th grade this year and into a school that used Saxon. Before hand we had only completed a few lessons of CLE 4 math so she didn't have a full year of it at the time. Their 400 level math is the equivalent of Saxon 7/6 IF you do the entire level, which we did not.

 

With this said my daughter struggled mightly this year. It was actually the first time I have ever seen her really struggle.

Her math computation was week because for many years I struggled to get her to do timed math drill. She dug her heals in terribly and I was never able to get her to memorize her math facts. So that came slow to her. There were many concepts that she couldn't wrap her mind around because the program itself was spiral and she was used to math programs like Bob Jones, Singapore, Calvert , K12 which all were mastery math programs. She managed to pass math with a C but it was a pure struggle. The math book had me stumped at times and wasn't very helpful to me when she would come home with it. I didn't care that they threw in math problems that had either been taught a long time ago, were maybe touched on, or never taught at all.

 

Fastforward to now and I'm having her finish the 400 level math here of CLE at home. There have been many times that she's blurted out, " Uh, mom if I would have just known this when doing the Saxon 7/6 it would have made my year so much easier." So I just don't believe in or think that skipping grade levels in math is a good idea at all. Each grade level introduces new math concepts that build upon each other.

 

So my thought is its going to be a VERY BAD idea for him to skip 5th grade math, and in all actuality he'll be skipping 6th grade math as well as 6th grade math is techincally 6/5. In every Saxon math book they review the first 35-40 lessons very quickly of the grade before. So in 7/6 he'll have about 35-40 lessons of 6th grade math and the rest will be 7th grade math.

I really found that in a brick and mortar school setting is that if your child has not started with Saxon and the higher up the level the less likely they are going to do well with it. 1. Because they are not being put into a level they need to be in but the level the school is putting them in, and 2. If your coming from a mastery program that they functioned well in that spiral is just going to not make sense to them. Some days I wondered if my daughter's head was going to explode! LOL.

 

Granted CLE's math is spiral but it also gently introduces new topics and doesn't throw topics in that they've never learned before either.

 

I don't want to discourage you but your going to be in for one heck of a year , your going to need more then just practicing those concepts at home. I did this with my daughters before they entered the school by buying the Saxon level texts and if they haven't practiced them a lot then its just not going to help much because they haven't been exposed to the program long enough to reap the benefits from it to just jump into the deep water like that.

[mrs.m]

Have you tried the Saxon placement tests to see what level your DS would belong? He might be ok. But I just don't think a summer of practicing long division will cut that big of a leap. I think you should see if the school has some other ideas or you will need to be prepared for some long evenings of math homework.

[mrs.m]

This has been our experience and you can take it with a grain of salt but Saxon 7/6 is a difficult level.

My oldest went into 6th grade this year and into a school that used Saxon. Before hand we had only completed a few lessons of CLE 4 math so she didn't have a full year of it at the time. Their 400 level math is the equivalent of Saxon 7/6 IF you do the entire level, which we did not.

.

 

I'm not understanding what you are saying here. If this is the case then your DC would have been prepared to go into Saxon 7/6 after CLE 300. My DD used Saxon 7/6 last year and my DS is using CLE 300 right now. There is absolutely no way that he would be remotely prepared for Saxon 7/6 after CLE 300. I doubt that he will be prepared after CLE 400. Saxon 7/6 is the level before pre-algebra. Did you mean CLE 400 is equivalent to Saxon 6/5?

 

I love CLE but I don't think it is that advanced. I also love middle school Saxon and I don't think it is at all behind. :confused: My experience is that CLE transitions very nicely into middle school Saxon. And I have never experienced Saxon throwing in problems that have never been introduced before. The practice problems have numbers that tell you what lesson they came from so the student can look back and review if necessary.

Edited July 20, 2011 by jannylynn

[AmyinMD]

My dd did TT4 and went into Saxon 6/5 after. It is challenging for her after doing TT but it's working well so far. I think it is going to be a huge jump to go from TT4 to Saxon 7/6.

[Coffeetime]

So my thought is its going to be a VERY BAD idea for him to skip 5th grade math, and in all actuality he'll be skipping 6th grade math as well as 6th grade math is techincally 6/5.

It is my understanding that 5/4 is 4th grade, 6/5 is 5th grade, and 7/6 is 6th grade. So he'll only be skipping 1 grade level, not two. :)

 

 

Her math computation was week because for many years I struggled to get her to do timed math drill. She dug her heals in terribly and I was never able to get her to memorize her math facts. So that came slow to her. There were many concepts that she couldn't wrap her mind around because the program itself was spiral and she was used to math programs like Bob Jones, Singapore, Calvert , K12 which all were mastery math programs.

 

I do have to say that his computation level is high. We do a lot of drill. He's a bright child and picks up on things quickly, and we've used a spiral math approach and it seems to work well for him.

 

So I just don't believe in or think that skipping grade levels in math is a good idea at all. Each grade level introduces new math concepts that build upon each other.

This is my concern, I've heard both that it moves quickly and that it's a very comprehensive review of previously introduced topics and I don't know which is more true, I guess. :tongue_smilie:

 

Have you tried the Saxon placement tests to see what level your DS would belong? He might be ok. But I just don't think a summer of practicing long division will cut that big of a leap. I think you should see if the school has some other ideas or you will need to be prepared for some long evenings of math homework.

 

The school gave him the Saxon placement test along with various math sheets to complete. I didn't get his exact score from the school on the placement test, they just told me that he needed fluency in long division and multi-digit multiplication. These hadn't been covered at all in TT4. The thing is, it's not unheard of for this particular school to place children in lower grade levels- so I don't *think* they would just place him in 5th if they really didn't think he could do the work... :001_unsure:

 

Do you personally use Saxon? TT4 was super slow and didn't challenge ds at all and I was planning on switching him to MM5 next year (before we decided to enroll him). Looking at both those programs, MM5 looks pretty comparable to what I HAVE seen of Saxon 7/6, if not slightly more difficult- if you are familiar with those can you tell me if you think that's the case?

[mrs.m]

It is my understanding that 5/4 is 4th grade, 6/5 is 5th grade, and 7/6 is 6th grade. So he'll only be skipping 1 grade level, not two. :)

yes.

 

This is my concern, I've heard both that it moves quickly and that it's a very comprehensive review of previously introduced topics and I don't know which is more true, I guess. :tongue_smilie:

 

It's hard to explain but both are true. There's a lot of review from the previous year at first but then it starts to build on the newly introduced topics. The reviewed topics from the previous year are retaught.

 

The school gave him the Saxon placement test along with various math sheets to complete. I didn't get his exact score from the school on the placement test, they just told me that he needed fluency in long division and multi-digit multiplication. These hadn't been covered at all in TT4. The thing is, it's not unheard of for this particular school to place children in lower grade levels- so I don't *think* they would just place him in 5th if they really didn't think he could do the work... :001_unsure:

 

I think the school probably knows what they are doing. He might be ok especially if he found TT to be slow. :)

 

 

Do you personally use Saxon? TT4 was super slow and didn't challenge ds at all and I was planning on switching him to MM5 next year (before we decided to enroll him). Looking at both those programs, MM5 looks pretty comparable to what I HAVE seen of Saxon 7/6, if not slightly more difficult- if you are familiar with those can you tell me if you think that's the case?

 

Yes, my DD is moving into 8/7 this year. She completed 7/6 last year. I'm not famliliar with MM. I didn't care for the instruction style in the samples so we never used it. I can't comment on how it compares to Saxon 7/6. We tried TT for awhile and didn't like it because it wasn't challenging enough for DD.

[wapiti]

Do you personally use Saxon? TT4 was super slow and didn't challenge ds at all and I was planning on switching him to MM5 next year (before we decided to enroll him). Looking at both those programs, MM5 looks pretty comparable to what I HAVE seen of Saxon 7/6, if not slightly more difficult- if you are familiar with those can you tell me if you think that's the case?

 

I haven't seen Saxon 7/6, but I can comment on MM 5. Lots of instruction on decimals and fractions, lots of geometry, intro to negative numbers, percent. You can see from the TOC that there is some review in the first chapter on various topics (which would include multi-digit multiplication, for example) but it is fairly brief on each topic. There is a nice section on solving word problems with bar diagrams. However, long division and multi-digit multiplication are covered extensively in MM 4. It might be efficient to use MM topic books this summer on the topics he needs to work on before starting Saxon 7/6. I'd probably also see about getting a used copy of 7/6 to feel sure you've identified all the holes (it might be a hard TOC to pick apart), plus to acclimate him to the format. HTH :) good luck!!

[gracyomalley]

My only comment, which may or may not be helpful, is that my oldest did Saxon 5/4, then MM 4, then TT7...my middle did TT4 and is presently doing MM 4...MM 4 is harder than TT4, and covers much more - I have Saxon 6/5 - she could have done that too with a little stretching, I just don't like saxon much.

 

I don't have Saxon 7/6, but suspect it would be similar to TT 6 or 7, not TT 5, and that like all saxon books, the last 30 lessons will be quite advanced, and the first 30 quite slow...but not for a kid who just did TT4.

 

If the school thinks it will be ok, and recommended working on specifics, and those are going well, than I would trust a bit - but know that the schools often consider 80% mastery (which in our house would signal to me that the kid doesn't really get the subject matter...), so they may be saying "if you cover this we think your child can "get through" Saxon 7/6."

 

There will be many adjustments for your child next year, and it sounds like math will be one of them! As long as you have a kid who is willing to work really hard to keep up - you will be ok!

erin

[JudoMom]

 

I do have to say that his computation level is high. We do a lot of drill. He's a bright child and picks up on things quickly, and we've used a spiral math approach and it seems to work well for him.

 

 

 

 

The school gave him the Saxon placement test along with various math sheets to complete. I didn't get his exact score from the school on the placement test, they just told me that he needed fluency in long division and multi-digit multiplication. These hadn't been covered at all in TT4. The thing is, it's not unheard of for this particular school to place children in lower grade levels- so I don't *think* they would just place him in 5th if they really didn't think he could do the work... :001_unsure:

 

Do you personally use Saxon? TT4 was super slow and didn't challenge ds at all and I was planning on switching him to MM5 next year (before we decided to enroll him). Looking at both those programs, MM5 looks pretty comparable to what I HAVE seen of Saxon 7/6, if not slightly more difficult- if you are familiar with those can you tell me if you think that's the case?

 

We've only ever used Saxon (and we use it a "grade ahead"). I would give him the placement test at home so you can see for yourself what he misses. Since his computation is good, and he picks up on things quickly, I think he'll probably do fine. Definitely get him fluent in long division and multidigit multiplication. Be prepared to go over the lessons with him at night if he's struggling.

[RootAnn]

I think that after Abeka 3, my oldest tested into Saxon 6/5 and TT 6. (I have her do placement tests for other programs "for fun".)

 

I think it'll be a huge stretch to go into Saxon 7/6 after TT4. I second the recommendation to use some of MM's math topics (dark blue?) to cover the material. Is your ds okay with afterschooling? It might be good to keep that option open for math for when he gets frustrated with Saxon. (At the algebra & up levels, I really despise how Saxon teaches the material. I'm not familiar with the 5/4-6/5-7/6 levels.)

 

Good luck!

[Meriwether]

Could you get Saxon 6/5 to use at home? You could skip the lessons he is comfortable with. Do the lessons in the middle of the book. Not necessarily all the review questions but at least the lesson practice. The lessons at the end should be repeated somewhat in Saxon 7/6. If you started soon, you might be able to cover a lot of ground before 7/6 gets difficult.

[Mandy in TN]

Prior to Saxon 54 a child should know his addition/subtraction and multiplication/division facts cold.

 

Upon completion of 54 a child should have mastered multiple digit multiplication and division.

 

Upon completion of 65 a child should be fluent in fractions.

 

Upon completion of 76 a child should have mastered the 4 operations with fractions and decimals.

 

TT4 to Saxon76 will be quite a jump.

Mandy

[Coffeetime]

We've only ever used Saxon (and we use it a "grade ahead"). I would give him the placement test at home so you can see for yourself what he misses. Since his computation is good, and he picks up on things quickly, I think he'll probably do fine. Definitely get him fluent in long division and multidigit multiplication. Be prepared to go over the lessons with him at night if he's struggling.

 

I gave him the Saxon placement test this morning. He completed the 5/4 and 6/5 portions and he only missed 6 problems total (they are allowed to miss 8), but approx. 10 problems required *some* explanation from me (either reminding him of what he had learned previously or asking him to look at it again and redo the problem more carefully) and I know the student is supposed to work independently. He actually had an easier time on the 6/5 portion because we've been doing some 5th grade math this summer. Argh! This has me so stressed out!

 

 

I think that after Abeka 3, my oldest tested into Saxon 6/5 and TT 6. (I have her do placement tests for other programs "for fun".)

 

I think it'll be a huge stretch to go into Saxon 7/6 after TT4. I second the recommendation to use some of MM's math topics (dark blue?) to cover the material. Is your ds okay with afterschooling? It might be good to keep that option open for math for when he gets frustrated with Saxon. (At the algebra & up levels, I really despise how Saxon teaches the material. I'm not familiar with the 5/4-6/5-7/6 levels.)

 

Good luck!

 

I have the MM Multiplication and Division 3 topic book and have been working through that with him... it's just that our personalities aren't jiving when it comes to school anymore and it's really becoming a big stress in our lives. He does great when I just hand him a bunch of worksheets and he works through them on his own, but as soon as I sit down to teach him a new concept everything falls apart. :confused: I guess at this point I need to just continue working through the MM book and my plan was to do LoF Fractions with him next month along with continuing his drills in Multi-digit multiplication and long division. Poor kid. Lots of math for the summer. :(

[Coffeetime]

 

I don't have Saxon 7/6, but suspect it would be similar to TT 6 or 7, not TT 5, and that like all saxon books, the last 30 lessons will be quite advanced, and the first 30 quite slow...but not for a kid who just did TT4.

 

TT4 was really slow and easy for him- I wished I would have put him in TT5 last year as he could have done it easily. I sure would be less stressed out about this if I had! LOL

 

If the school thinks it will be ok, and recommended working on specifics, and those are going well, than I would trust a bit - but know that the schools often consider 80% mastery (which in our house would signal to me that the kid doesn't really get the subject matter...), so they may be saying "if you cover this we think your child can "get through" Saxon 7/6."

 

That makes sense. Thank you.

 

There will be many adjustments for your child next year, and it sounds like math will be one of them! As long as you have a kid who is willing to work really hard to keep up - you will be ok!

erin

 

Thank you! I need some encouragement, at this point. :tongue_smilie:

[Coffeetime]

I guess at this point I need to just continue working through the MM book and my plan was to do LoF Fractions with him next month along with continuing his drills in Multi-digit multiplication and long division. Poor kid. Lots of math for the summer. :(

 

I'm actually changing my mind and thinking that I should focus on working on the types of problems he missed or needed extra explanation on on the Saxon placement test, instead of working through MM- and trust the placement test rather than try to cover a bunch of new concepts (that weren't even on the placement test) in such a short period of time. (I assume what's on the Saxon placement test is what they expect mastery of before moving on to the next level.)

Like I said, he only missed 6 outright, and the ones he needed prompting on were mainly topics we had covered before, but he hadn't seen in quite a while... I would continue his drill and may also let him do LoF Fractions. What do you all think?

Edited July 20, 2011 by Coffeetime

[TracyR]

See then the test is invalid. The student is supposed to work through the placement test on their own without explanation or having you redo the problem.

 

I made an error , after doing CLE 400 a student can easily go into Saxon 7/6 ( that was my bad).

 

As for throwing in problems that were not touched upon I belive the school edition Saxon math and homeschool editions are different. I compared them to the ones we have and they were very different. School editions contain 30 problems, the Investigations are included in the books and yes, there were problems thrown in that we just couldn't figure out because there was no explanation on how to solve them. It would reference back to a lesson yet there was nothing there to help us learn to solve the problem. It was very frustrating and I did not like it at all. There was many times we had to reference our computer or ask the teacher what in the world it was asking them to do.

[Coffeetime]

See then the test is invalid. The student is supposed to work through the placement test on their own without explanation or having you redo the problem.

 

Yes, I realize that.:) I was using the test as a method of identifying where his "gaps" were, as suggested by another poster so I wasn't as concerned about protocol. I guess my point was that there were fewer problems we hadn't covered than I thought there would be. I thought it would be a lot harder than it was. We had actually covered most of the material, although he clearly wasn't at mastery level in all of the concepts.

 

I *think* (after agonizing about it all day) that I will use the 5th grade text I have to fill in the gaps I have identified using the placement exam. He has for several weeks been doing daily practice problems in long division, long division with a 2-digit divisor, multi-digit multiplication, addition and subtraction w/regrouping, and drills in math facts (addition, subtraction, multiplication and division). We'll continue those, of course, as well as adding daily practice in order of operations, Solving for unknowns, and operations with decimals. I'll have him work through LoF Fractions over the next month and toward the end of summer I will have him retake the placement exam. That's my plan... at the moment. ;) Any suggestions/opinions are still welcome, however!