Bare Bones for 4th Grade

[Daisy]

What do you consider bare bones for 4th grade? I'm trying to get a line-up for my 9yo son (he'll be 10 in Feb 2011) who we really believe has dysgraphia (in the process of trying to get him some help).

 

He thinks he hates school and is a terrible writer. He frequently compares himself to his sister and is really starting to get down on himself about his inability to write and spell. He is also very accident prone (clutzy) and reaching an age where his own inability to be neat is really irritating him. The good news though is that he is a wonderful reader and is really very clever. He also loves science.

 

I want to limit his frustration this year while still focusing on improving his writing. His day routinely goes longer than his junior high sister and I would really like to change that (for his sake). Here's our line-up. Can any of you give me any advice on really streamlining this for him? Does the writing seem about right or too much? Is there anything you can see that we could do without this one year? You'll note we use a white board frequently. He does better with the marker/board.

 

Core Subjects...

 

R&S Math 4 (I'm going to try and have him write in the book. If not, I'll copy his problems the night before and he can just write in the answers).

 

R&S English 3 (orally as much as possible with diagramming on a white board)

 

AAS 3 (Hoping to start moving through this more quickly but he struggles with retention. This is all done with a white board).

 

IEW - TWSS - My acting as his scribe with much of it. I'm hoping to have him copy the final drafts as handwriting practice (a few lines a day).

Pathway Readers with workbooks and free reading on alternate days (this will require writing but I think the phonics practice in these will help his spelling??)

 

Subjects done with his sister...

 

Bible - My own program with no writing for him. He also does Awana club and that requires some writing.

 

History - MOH3 and a notebooking page. This does require some daily writing.

 

Science - God's Design for the Physical World. I'm not going to have him write anything for this. We'll just do lots of experiments and hands-on fun.

 

IEW Poetry Memorization - Hoping this will improve his ability to articulately convey a thought.

 

Electives...

 

Building Thinking Skills

 

Maps, Charts, & Graphs D

 

Artpac 3 (Thought this MIGHT help with fine motor control?)

 

I'm also considering typing with the online free program. Any thoughts?

[jelbe5]

This is my very humble opinion. :001_smile: I looked at your list and went "Oh my" in my head. If you are seeking "bare bones" I think you should let most of the writing/English programs go and just pick one . . . perhaps Rod and Staff. If there will be some writing involved with History then you have additional writing aside from Rod and Staff. I would suggest letting him read books that he is interested in (free reading) and he might narrate to you and you could type down his narrations if you so choose (oral composition). I think that would cut down on the amount of work for both of you . . . but again, that is just my very humble opinion . . . :001_smile: To me, "bare bones" would be reading, some writing with support and math . . .

 

Editing to add that Jump In! is a great writing program, but again, I would just pick one program, not do Jump In! on top of Rod and Staff. Also, my older dd's spelling improved dramatically when she began to type and use the spell check. You could let him type/write and develop personal spelling lists for him based on mistakes . . . just another thought . . .

Edited June 26, 2011 by jelbe5

[Donna T.]

Hi, Daisy! I really like your list. I do have two thoughts. First, I think I would probably drop the Pathway Readers workbooks and I would consider replacing R&S English 3 with First Language Lessons 3. My oldest son really struggled with handwriting at that age and I found that FLL was so much better for him than R&S. He liked FLL better because it has the diagrams already drawn out and he greatly preferred the workbook pages. He went back to R&S for level 4 after FLL 3 and was ready for it at that point. But, that one year with FLL 3 really developed his confidence and he loves grammar that year. R&S was really intimidating to him but he has done a great job with it since using FLL 3. I like R&S very much but found FLL to be alot gentler at that level.

 

Those are just the two things that I would consider.

[Just Robyn]

I agree that that doesn't look "bare bones." I would drop the Pathway readers/workbooks. If he is doing AAS and reading well, that should be enough. I would also drop IEW TWSS. As much as I love IEW Poetry, if you're really going for bare bones, then maybe that could be dropped too. I would probably see how it goes and drop it only if the days were still too long and/or if he really didn't like it.

 

That's just what I would do.

[Allison TX]

Hi Daisy.:) I have an 11 year old son with some lds and I think your list would have been too much for him in 4th grade. He is now a very good reader but still struggles with writing and spelling.

 

Anyway, I would cut out IEW and just focus on Rod and Staff, with most of it done orally. You can add IEW back in when he's older if you really want to use it. I like your idea about copying the problems for him from the R&S math book. I don't think there will be enough space to write in the 4th grade text. The Pathway readers and workbooks are probably too much. He's already getting great spelling instruction with AAS, and if he's a good reader then he doesn't need more phonics. Also, I would limit the history notebooking to just writing a narration, and not alot else, unless he enjoys it.:) I also like your idea about adding typing. I wish I had done that years ago.:)

 

Just some thoughts.:)

 

By the way, I really enjoy your blog.:)

[Daisy]

LOL. I realize it isn't bare bones. I just don't know what to cut out to make it bare bones. Thus why I welcome ALL your thoughts. Go ahead and rip it apart. It will give me a good idea of what to prioritize.

[Donna T.]

I would also drop IEW TWSS. As much as I love IEW Poetry, if you're really going for bare bones, then maybe that could be dropped too. I would probably see how it goes and drop it only if the days were still too long and/or if he really didn't like it.

 

That's just what I would do.

 

Oh, yes, I meant to say that also. I will be using IEW SWI-A with my 4th grader this year but I will type all of it for him (he will dictate and I will type while he watches) and I may just drop it all together and pick it up in 5th grade.

[amsunshine]

Just a couple of thoughts: I agree with the previous poster who recommended dropping R&S3 for FLL3. Using FLL would also eliminate the need for IEW Poetry memorization, as poetry memorization is built into FLL. Dictation and narrations are part of FLL as well. With the daily writing in history that you have planned, this may be enough to eliminate the need for an additional writing program, such as IEW.

[Daisy]

I've never even looked at FLL. What level would he need? Any clues? We did R&S English 2 and he did fine with it (mostly oral).

 

So FLL would take the place of IEW, R&S, and Poetry Memorization? And he'd get additional writing in history? Hm, sure sounds more simple.

[wapiti]

Absolutely typing!! Writing might be much easier for him when he can get it out faster by typing. I'd start with the free on-line program (my kids like this http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/typing/levels/level1.shtml). Learning typing might be a fun summer project - once he gets going, let him play away typing stories or something, if he wanted to. Then hopefully he'll be able to start typing his writing assignments in the fall.

 

At some point, I'd also do a cursive program if you haven't already. That is something that many OTs also recommend - it's easier not to have to pick the pencil up off the paper for every letter. Your plate is so full, that might also make a better summer activity (i.e., next summer, LOL).

 

If you want to work on fine motor control, working on gross motor may help (I'd probably put off the art, as probably being frustrating for him at the moment). Pop over to the SN board to ask about "sensory diet" types of activities (moving heavy things, etc.). The SN board is likely to have other helpful ideas as well. ETA, look at that, right there on the front page http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286588

 

Also, regarding handwriting specifically, I think there is a Brain Gym activity that might help (I'll have to double-check later - book's upstairs) called Lazy 8's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyWZzDNGUFk. Also, he might enjoy this more general set of Brain Gym exercises, especially first thing in the morning, or right after lunch, etc.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL4an7UC3wA. The book might be available at your library http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Gym-Teachers-Paul-Dennison/dp/0942143027/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309131616&sr=1-1 It seems kind of OT-ish to me, and you can do it at home, for free, between the book and the youtube videos.

Edited June 26, 2011 by wapiti

[Joyofsixreboot]

My ds was 4th grade last year. He absolutely could not write. (He's in VT now). Our year looked like this

 

CLE Math-could work in book

CLE LA-did some orally and some written

Reading-we used old Open Court readers and he narrated back to me along with other history and science related reading

History and Science were largely read alouds

 

Doing most things orally really reduced his frustration level and made him more willing to try when we did do some research reports.

[2_girls_mommy]

Ok, I will go against the grain and say that I would keep R&S 3. If he did fine w/R&S 2 then he should transition into it just fine. It covers writing. Granted it doesn't get into writing until the end of the year, but you will be doing writing with your history notebooking page daily. So I would drop IEW writing.

 

I have never used IEW. I am sure it is better than just R&S writing alone for writing, but if you want to go bare bones, that is what I would do. You can incorporate writing in other places, or do a lesson of IEW occasionally.

 

The rest I might keep. I haven't used the Pathway Readers and workbooks, but the workbooks might be something I would ditch if it was getting to be too much. I would keep the readers, because he has to read! Or you could do them orally too if you need the phonics review. But he would be getting the phonics in the spelling program, so again, it would be my next thing to drop.

[Emmy]

My ds was 4th grade last year. He absolutely could not write. (He's in VT now). Our year looked like this

 

CLE Math-could work in book

CLE LA-did some orally and some written

Reading-we used old Open Court readers and he narrated back to me along with other history and science related reading

History and Science were largely read alouds

 

Doing most things orally really reduced his frustration level and made him more willing to try when we did do some research reports.

 

To me, this is what bare bones is. Math, LA split between oral and written (FLL is a great idea btw), lots of reading and narrating/telling back (I don't use readers though) and history/science as read alouds (with activities or experiments if that's your thing). Then you have plenty of time and energy (on his part) to work on writing. Now I would hope after a year of doing 'bare bones' that he could add things back in the next year but if you really want to focus on writing and give him a shorter day to help his self esteem, I would cut way back to the 3R's and have the rest be reading/read alouds.

[Daisy]

To me, this is what bare bones is. Math, LA split between oral and written (FLL is a great idea btw), lots of reading and narrating/telling back (I don't use readers though) and history/science as read alouds (with activities or experiments if that's your thing). Then you have plenty of time and energy (on his part) to work on writing. Now I would hope after a year of doing 'bare bones' that he could add things back in the next year but if you really want to focus on writing and give him a shorter day to help his self esteem, I would cut way back to the 3R's and have the rest be reading/read alouds.

 

I don't usually use readers with workbooks, but I thought maybe they would help. I feel like I'm just throwing stuff at him hoping something will actually help him with his writing. I'm just overloading him and causing him to burn-out. I feel like he is behind and it is driving me crazy! I'm having a hard time readjusting MY expectations for him. :blushing:

 

I've been too hard on him and really have been thinking that his writing issues are my fault rather than seeing there really is a problem. I think I've done every terrible parenting/teaching thing mentioned in the dysgraphia book I read. Sigh. I feel like his feelings of inadequacy about writing are largely due to my badgering him over it. For a long time I've just seen him as a wiggly boy who needed to develop some discipline and diligence.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Daisy

[farmwife]

I have a son who LOVES Pathway readers, the workbooks however are just icky. So if your son loves the readers as much as mine...KEEP them, but drop the workbook.

[Donna T.]

I've never even looked at FLL. What level would he need? Any clues? We did R&S English 2 and he did fine with it (mostly oral).

 

So FLL would take the place of IEW, R&S, and Poetry Memorization? And he'd get additional writing in history? Hm, sure sounds more simple.

 

I would try FLL 3 (if you decide to try it at all). It is gentle but covers the basics so well. But, if he did well with R&S 2 then there is probably no reason to change. If he is doing some additional copywork, the AAS, and some oral narration, he should be well covered for LA, in my opinion. Personally, I would not drop the IEW Poetry. It is so effortless to use. My boys love it and are eager to learn the poems. You could use the poems for additional copywork if you think it would benefit him.

 

One thing that may be helpful for him is to have him copy some lines from the poem that he is learning over a period of time... maybe a full week even, and then after he has a piece memorized, have him write a line or two (keep in short!) without looking at the model. So, he has looked at it for his copywork and memorized the poem and THEN have him try to write a little bit of it down from memory. That will help him to put the words that are already in his head on paper. It is a very basic exercises but really helps them to begin to write with some confidence. You can make it more challenging by using the more complex portions of the poems he is learning.

 

Just an idea! One that I happen to like :001_smile:.

[Mandy in TN]

What do you consider bare bones for 4th grade?

 

To me, this is what bare bones is. Math, LA split between oral and written (FLL is a great idea btw), lots of reading and narrating/telling back (I don't use readers though) and history/science as read alouds (with activities or experiments if that's your thing). Then you have plenty of time and energy (on his part) to work on writing. Now I would hope after a year of doing 'bare bones' that he could add things back in the next year but if you really want to focus on writing and give him a shorter day to help his self esteem, I would cut way back to the 3R's and have the rest be reading/read alouds.

:iagree:

 

Core Subjects...

 

R&S Math 4 (I'm going to try and have him write in the book. If not, I'll copy his problems the night before and he can just write in the answers).

 

AAS 3 (Hoping to start moving through this more quickly but he struggles with retention. This is all done with a white board).

 

Subjects done with his sister...

 

Bible - My own program with no writing for him. He also does Awana club and that requires some writing.

 

History - MOH3 and a notebooking page. This does require some daily writing.

 

Science - God's Design for the Physical World. I'm not going to have him write anything for this. We'll just do lots of experiments and hands-on fun.

 

The items above plus FLL would be more bare bones.

 

I love IEW, but if you are using IEW TWSS, would you just use the grammar portion of R&S? It may be easier to just use FLL. I have never used FLL, but it looks like it would be a good fit for your ds. Wouldn't it cover what you are currently planning to cover with 3 programs- R&S, IEW, and IEW Poetry Memorization?

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Testimony]

I saw your list:

 

"Core Subjects...

 

R&S Math 4 (I'm going to try and have him write in the book. If not, I'll copy his problems the night before and he can just write in the answers).

 

R&S English 3 (orally as much as possible with diagramming on a white board)

 

AAS 3 (Hoping to start moving through this more quickly but he struggles with retention. This is all done with a white board).

 

IEW - TWSS - My acting as his scribe with much of it. I'm hoping to have him copy the final drafts as handwriting practice (a few lines a day).

 

Pathway Readers with workbooks and free reading on alternate days (this will require writing but I think the phonics practice in these will help his spelling??)

 

Subjects done with his sister...

 

Bible - My own program with no writing for him. He also does Awana club and that requires some writing.

 

History - MOH3 and a notebooking page. This does require some daily writing.

 

Science - God's Design for the Physical World. I'm not going to have him write anything for this. We'll just do lots of experiments and hands-on fun.

 

IEW Poetry Memorization - Hoping this will improve his ability to articulately convey a thought"

 

I agree with a previous poster who said to do FLL. You can go to FLL3 from R&S 2. I would recommend that you drop IEW, both writing and poetry, because FLL will do that for you. FLL provides the lines for the diagrams for the child. It has poetry and tells you how to memorize them. Also, FLL 3 covers grammar so you would not need R&S English either. If you will have him do daily writing with the history, then do you need a writing program? May I suggest Writing with ease?

 

Just a thought!

 

Sincerely,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[WIS0320]

Could you let him complete some of his work typing on a keyboard? I know that can be a wonderful relief for some kids who cannot easily master the mechanics of handwriting. It isn't that they can't produce solid content, it is just so laborious to do so and the focus is so intently on the writing it down that learning material is much more difficult.

 

(Not that I've been at this long, so obviously my opinion is only worth a little bit ;) )

[ereks mom]

To me, "bare bones" means math, science, history/geography, reading, English, and Bible. I would concentrate on only those subjects, and if he enjoys art, incorporate it into the history, reading, or Bible courses by using Dover or Bellerapohon coloring books or History Pockets or Literature Pockets.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Core Subjects...

 

R&S Math 4 (I'm going to try and have him write in the book. If not, I'll copy his problems the night before and he can just write in the answers).

 

R&S English 3 (orally as much as possible with diagramming on a white board)

 

AAS 3 (Hoping to start moving through this more quickly but he struggles with retention. This is all done with a white board).

 

IEW - TWSS - My acting as his scribe with much of it. I'm hoping to have him copy the final drafts as handwriting practice (a few lines a day).-- see writing suggestions below

Pathway Readers with workbooks and free reading on alternate days (this will require writing but I think the phonics practice in these will help his spelling??)-- I would drop this and allow him to just enjoy free reading or living books to go along with history/science

 

Subjects done with his sister...

 

Bible - My own program with no writing for him. He also does Awana club and that requires some writing.

 

History - MOH3 and a notebooking page. This does require some daily writing.

 

Science - God's Design for the Physical World. I'm not going to have him write anything for this. We'll just do lots of experiments and hands-on fun.

 

IEW Poetry Memorization - Hoping this will improve his ability to articulately convey a thought. ---How often do you do this? I would suggest doing this maybe once a week or so. Not daily. Or maybe alternate this with English so he does not do both everyday.

 

Electives...

 

Building Thinking Skills -- again- I would not do this daily, maybe once or twice a week alternating with the maps, Charts and Graphs D

 

Maps, Charts, & Graphs D

 

Artpac 3 (Thought this MIGHT help with fine motor control?)

 

I'm also considering typing with the online free program. Any thoughts?

 

 

My thoughts are to drop what I turned red. Add in more writing with History and Science (beginning outlining and such-- ex: what is the main idea of this paragraph? Have him answer that in a complete sentence to start learning outlining skills. Short summaries, creative writing of topics of his choice or short history/science writing assignments)

[walkermamaof4]

I just wanted to encourage you by saying that we did R&S 4 math with my dd who has LDs and she was able to write almost all of it in the book. By 5th she was able to do it on paper entirely too! I think/hope your ds will too.

 

We didn't love FLL and used MCT instead and do really love it. We do it all on the white board. There isn't a heavy writing component in Island level though, or at least not yet. Anyway, without your seeing FLL, I wouldn't totally jump board on orally doing R&S grammar. But I agree that you should drop Pathway workbooks and IEW. I bought the Pathway workbooks for the same dd. She read the books to me and needed comprehension help, so I thought it made sense. But it was way too much to add to our day and I didn't love them, so I ended up selling them unused. Such a big waste of money! And I have IEW sitting on my shelf unused too. I borrowed R&S grammar 3 from my sister a few weeks ago and just think MCT will fill our need fine. It is really helping us all see the beauty in language rather than detest writing as my kids did before. HTH!

[Daisy]

R&S English is definitely my comfort zone. I've used it up through level 6 with my daughter. I'm confident enough in grammar to teach it without a book. I don't think I'll jump ship from it unless it proves not to work with him. FLL looks interesting but some of the samples actually have more writing on some days then R&S English has.

 

So does this looks doable??

 

R&S Math 4 (daily)

 

R&S English 3 (3-4x a week)

AAS 3 (4x a week)

Independent reading (This what I've done for years so I guess I'll stick with it; daily)

 

Bible - no writing (daily)

History - notebooking (4x a week)

Science - no writing (3-4x a week)

 

Typing (daily)

IEW Poetry (He loves poetry. I don't really think this is going to be a problem. Daily for about 10 minutes).

 

I forgot to add that he is spending the summer slowly working through his Cheerful Cursive book.

 

Maybe Building Thinking Skills, Art, and the map skills books can just be as he shows interest since I already own them?

 

Does that sound better?

[eloquacious]

Do you have anything that he could dictate to that would transcribe? An iPhone would do Dragon Dictation (free) or something similar. This might help him get his thoughts out without worrying about spelling or writing, at least initially, and then he could go back and edit.

[Mandy in TN]

R&S English is definitely my comfort zone. I've used it up through level 6 with my daughter. I'm confident enough in grammar to teach it without a book. I don't think I'll jump ship from it unless it proves not to work with him. FLL looks interesting but some of the samples actually have more writing on some days then R&S English has.

 

So does this looks doable??

 

R&S Math 4 (daily)

 

R&S English 3 (3-4x a week)

AAS 3 (4x a week)

Independent reading (This what I've done for years so I guess I'll stick with it; daily)

 

Bible - no writing (daily)

History - notebooking (4x a week)

Science - no writing (3-4x a week)

 

Typing (daily)

IEW Poetry (He loves poetry. I don't really think this is going to be a problem. Daily for about 10 minutes).

 

I forgot to add that he is spending the summer slowly working through his Cheerful Cursive book.

 

Maybe Building Thinking Skills, Art, and the map skills books can just be as he shows interest since I already own them?

 

Does that sound better?

Looks like you have a plan to move your ds forward, have him working less hours a day than his older sister, and reduce his frustration with putting pencil to paper. So, when the day starts, you know that you will be doing Bible, math, poetry and typing. Then, you will round robbin the rest of his studies. You may also want to have a cut off time. After putting forth genuine effort for x number of hours, call it a day.

 

HTH-

Mandy

[Daisy]

Thanks everyone.

[nukeswife]

Just wanted to say that if you like the looks of TWSS you could use that in your history and science lessons. TWSS teaches you how to teach writing and you pick what subject areas you'll use it in. My son loves IEW writing, but I used SWI because we don't do narrations and such for history and don't do science ala WTM. He loves Mr. Pudewa when he watches the videos. One thing Andrew said that my son really latched on to was "NO Pencils" and NO Erasing, he tells the kids that they should use a pen and that no erasing is allowed, they should simply line out (one line) anything they don't want and then keep going. Writing papers should be messy in the beginning. My dh loves to say there is no such things as a first and only draft. I let me son turn in his rough draft as a royal mess, but then he types that and any other revisions can be easily made on the computer where he can then print out his final draft. It's worked out so well.

 

I sure hope you find something that works for you both. I know what it's like to have a child that is down on themselves over something that isn't their fault. My dd has struggled with reading for so long, and will start vision therapy in the fall, hopefully as the year goes on what we do will result in happier children.