As a parent and/or a homeschooler, is it your job to

[pqr]

Originally Posted by pqr

People who do not have this are, in my view, missing something.

 

Oh good grief.

 

I do think there's something missing here...A sense of humour.

:rolleyes:

 

Call me strange, many people do, but I find absolutely nothing funny in mocking genuine patriotism, it is tawdry at best and disloyal at worst.

 

Yes, all nations have problems, every nation could be better, no nation (just like no mortal man) is perfect, but that does not give excuse for some of the comments made, especially those that are not only in poor taste but patently untrue. This is not humor, a joke about 10 gallon hats, big belt buckles and poor geographic knowledge is humor, these comments strike at the core beliefs of country and are made by Americans...simply not funny.

 

I revere my nation, I love her with all my heart, men have died for her, men are dying for her, men will die for her. This is not funny, it is sad beyond belief that it need be but makes one proud that we, as a nation, raise men of such character and conviction.

 

God Bless the United States and long may her flag wave.

[Orthodox6]

I am comfortable around people who feel (and exhibit) a strong sense of patriotism. I respect them. Some have posted to this thread. When I run across them in real life, I show my respect by quietly keeping to myself individual topics related to patriotism for which I would be called a dissenter. As one of my sons notes, patriotism and a sense of nationhood tie together. He and I have had some good conversations recently about the disappearance of the sense of nationhood, not only in the U.S., but in Western Europe.

 

For me, nonetheless, my religious beliefs and duties rank far above any requirements of patriotism. They are not co-mingled, as in some religions. On reflection, I think that is why I end up, as noted in the first paragraph, a dissenter at points.

[WishboneDawn]

Nevermind, nevermind, nevermind.

 

Do as you will PQR. Meanwhile I'm not an American and so reserve the right to snigger at the fact that the beaver is our national animal.

Edited June 23, 2011 by WishboneDawn
Too much snark

[nmoira]

Nevermind, nevermind, nevermind.

This whole conversation puts me in mind of what was perhaps the only funny A. Whitney Brown SNL monologue way back when. The jist of the piece was the danger of confusing and symbol with what it stands for, using an analogy I'll skip sharing for fear of offending the easily affronted.

 

ETA: I mean the sub-thread, not the entire thread. There has been some interesting conversation.

Edited June 23, 2011 by nmoira

[keptwoman]

As I was feeding the dog kangaroo meat the other day, I was wondering if other countries feed their pets the national emblem. I have no idea what our official animal is, but I'm sure for most foreigners it would be the kangaroo.

[leeannpal]

Well said.

 

I am personally not a fan of patriotism. Pride in one's country is strange to me. I agree to an extent with pp who doesn't care for group pride--it is frightening how much violence grows out of group pride and the automatic hatred or demonization of "the other" that comes with it. But I do think having a community, whether that be through clubs or homeschool groups or whatever, is very healthy for individuals and society at large.

 

I can never say that I'm "proud" to be an American. To me, that kind of thinking is what divides us from other people. Am I grateful to be an American? Abso-freakin-lutely! And I want my kids to be grateful that they live in a stable country where women are treated humanely and fairly, where laws (and a generally civilized culture) protect them from some of the gross injustices daily perpetrated on so many people throughout the world. I want them to be responsible, thoughtful, contributing citizens of whatever country they live in (which will likely be the United States). But I don't actually want them to feel proud about it because I find patriotism divisive.

 

So, to answer the question more directly, I obviously don't think it is a parent's responsibility to teach patriotism. I do think it's a parent's responsibility to expose their children to history and "facts" (which are sketchy in history) and let them make their own decisions about patriotism and everything else.

 

Very well said!

[Laura Corin]

So I might differ there is plenty of patriotism among some members of the Commonwealth.

 

 

The existence of patriotic songs no more implies passionate patriotism than the existence of plentiful Anglican churches implies passionate membership of the Church of England. Both are remnants of the passions of a previous age.

 

For your reference: my boys have been at a fairly traditional private school for the last year. I have attended every public event over that year and have never heard a patriotic song sung. At yesterday's prize giving, the main speech concerned service in other lands, but there was no puffery about Scotland or the UK.

 

ETA: I asked the boys this morning about patriotic songs. Calvin said that the headmaster wanted 'Jerusalem' for the Leavers Service, but the director of music abhors the song, so the school didn't sing it. Musical taste trumping patriotism?

 

Personally, I can't remember the last time I was at an event which involved singing a patriotic song. If the Queen happened by, then we would all sing the national anthem. Otherwise, it's the Last Night of the Proms and the Olympics. Maybe Wimbledon?

 

The departure of troops? One can support the individuals who choose to risk death for us without being particularly patriotic. I myself attend the annual Remembrance Day service in my town, despite not coming from a military family and not being a church goer: I recognise and honour the individual sacrifice.

 

Laura

Edited June 24, 2011 by Laura Corin

[pqr]

There's a generational shift that you are not recognising

 

The existence of patriotic songs no more implies passionate patriotism than the existence of plentiful Anglican churches implies passionate membership of the Church of England. Both are remnants of the passions of a previous age.

 

For your reference: my boys have been at a fairly traditional private school for the last year. I have attended every public event over that year and have never heard a patriotic song sung. At yesterday's prize giving, the main speech concerned service in other lands, but there was no puffery about Scotland or the UK.

 

ETA: I asked the boys this morning about patriotic songs. Calvin said that the headmaster wanted 'Jerusalem' for the Leavers Service, but the director of music abhors the song, so the school didn't sing it. Musical taste trumping patriotism?

 

Personally, I can't remember the last time I was at an event which involved singing a patriotic song. If the Queen happened by, then we would all sing the national anthem. Otherwise, it's the Last Night of the Proms and the Olympics. Maybe Wimbledon?

 

The departure of troops? One can support the individuals who choose to risk death for us without being particularly patriotic. I myself attend the annual Remembrance Day service in my town, despite not coming from a military family and not being a church goer: I recognise and honour the individual sacrifice.

 

Laura

 

I suspect that you are right, sadly so but right.

In essence this means that the cultural malaise that has struck Europe and now appears to be hitting the US; a malaise where pride in nation, love of country, duty, honor etc have been supplanted by a moral nihilism has fully infected the UK.

I did not realize that it had become so bad in the UK, I suppose I should have, but hoped that the flame of patriotism still flickered....of course many of the Brits I know are of the "old school" I just do not know how many are left.

I love Vera Lynn but you are telling me that her song, There'll Always be an England. (and yes I know that you are in Scotland)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuryChlOrvw

There'll always be an England

While there's a country lane,

Wherever there's a cottage small

Beside a field of grain.

There'll always be an England,

And England shall be free

If England means as much to you

As England means to me.

is now wrong. How terribly sad.

I suppose that this is just one of the many reasons that I homeschool, as my children will be raised to love country, and if necessary sacrifice for her. That is what patriots do and as for the rest....

Of course the troops who went to the Falklands did not do so out of any need to defend Norfolk or London, they went to the South Atlantic to recapture a piece of their nation that had been seized by an invader. I suspect that a strong argument can be made that they did not as you put it “choose to risk death for us†(as the Home Islands had not been attacked) but rather because Britain had been attacked, and patriotic ardor came to the fore. The crowds singing Land of Hope and Glory were not doing so because the Luftwaffe was again darkening the skies over London.

This thread reminds me of the famous Oxford Union debate of '33 which passed that odious resolution...."That this House will in no circumstances fight for its King and Country".,,,of course during the War they did do their duty so perhaps (hopefully) this anti-patriotic nonsense is simply bluster.

[WishboneDawn]

The existence of patriotic songs no more implies passionate patriotism than the existence of plentiful Anglican churches implies passionate membership of the Church of England. Both are remnants of the passions of a previous age.

 

For your reference: my boys have been at a fairly traditional private school for the last year. I have attended every public event over that year and have never heard a patriotic song sung. At yesterday's prize giving, the main speech concerned service in other lands, but there was no puffery about Scotland or the UK.

 

ETA: I asked the boys this morning about patriotic songs. Calvin said that the headmaster wanted 'Jerusalem' for the Leavers Service, but the director of music abhors the song, so the school didn't sing it. Musical taste trumping patriotism?

 

Personally, I can't remember the last time I was at an event which involved singing a patriotic song. If the Queen happened by, then we would all sing the national anthem. Otherwise, it's the Last Night of the Proms and the Olympics. Maybe Wimbledon?

 

The departure of troops? One can support the individuals who choose to risk death for us without being particularly patriotic. I myself attend the annual Remembrance Day service in my town, despite not coming from a military family and not being a church goer: I recognise and honour the individual sacrifice.

 

Laura

 

I think there's also a difference in the flavour of patriotism though which was more my original point. There are flamboyant displays in some countries and more reserved displays in others. I'd venture to say many of us outside the US are quite patriotic but it doesn't get recognized as such because it's more quiet or humourous nature gets misinterpreted by some as a lack of patriotism or as "mocking" our country.

 

I really do believe I live in the most wonderful country in the world. I don't think I need to turn out solemn monologues every time the subject comes up to display it. If a person can't recognize my affection and commitment to my country in my beaver jokes or Tim Horton's slams then perhaps there's something in my country's character they don't understand but to assume it's some kind of inferior patriotism is rather smug and narrow IMO.

[Lady Florida.]

No, it's not my job.

[EthiopianFood]

As I was feeding the dog kangaroo meat the other day, I was wondering if other countries feed their pets the national emblem. I have no idea what our official animal is, but I'm sure for most foreigners it would be the kangaroo.

 

Nope, no eagle kibble here! :lol:

[Laura Corin]

I think there's also a difference in the flavour of patriotism though which was more my original point. There are flamboyant displays in some countries and more reserved displays in others.

 

I got diverted by the discussion of patriotic songs.

 

An analogy. My mother has never said that she loves me. She's a reserved person who comes from a non-demonstrative culture. It doesn't mean that she feels any less about me than did my husband's Texan parents who told him daily that he was loved. It's a different style.

 

The story of Wootton Bassett might give a clue as to style. There's no pomp, no ra-ra. Just quiet respect and, yes, patriotism.

 

Laura

[keptwoman]

I think there's also a difference in the flavour of patriotism though which was more my original point. There are flamboyant displays in some countries and more reserved displays in others. I'd venture to say many of us outside the US are quite patriotic but it doesn't get recognized as such because it's more quiet or humourous nature gets misinterpreted by some as a lack of patriotism or as "mocking" our country.

 

I really do believe I live in the most wonderful country in the world. I don't think I need to turn out solemn monologues every time the subject comes up to display it. If a person can't recognize my affection and commitment to my country in my beaver jokes or Tim Horton's slams then perhaps there's something in my country's character they don't understand but to assume it's some kind of inferior patriotism is rather smug and narrow IMO.

:hurray::hurray: Well said.

 

I get to feel affection for two countries, it's a priviledge. I'm glad I don't feel compelled to choose.

[pqr]

I got diverted by the discussion of patriotic songs.

 

An analogy. My mother has never said that she loves me. She's a reserved person who comes from a non-demonstrative culture. It doesn't mean that she feels any less about me than did my husband's Texan parents who told him daily that he was loved. It's a different style.

 

The story of Wootton Bassett might give a clue as to style. There's no pomp, no ra-ra. Just quiet respect and, yes, patriotism.

 

Laura

 

Please, oh please tell me that they still sing this one! I can see not singing Jerusalem (though it is a magnificent hymn) but this one must still be sung, else I give up all hope.

 

And you ladies with your thing for men in skirts...opps I mean kilts :-) should love this song.

 

Scotland the Brave.