s/o educational standards

[cathmom]

The minimum of the minimum is measured by the system they officially belong to and within which they get tested annually in all subjects (even if it were not a requirement, I find that I would need it for my mental peace),

 

 

I think you're really lucky, Ester Maria, to be in a system where there are accepted levels. I've read about Maria Montessori, and Italy had national exams even back then. I think that the US is too huge and varied and individualistic to agree on national standards.

[Halcyon]

There seems also to be some notion that you've either got your nose to the grind with textbooks and Latin declensions OR your children are comfortable in the 'real world' so know how to climb a tree and wave silk scarves around in an imterpretive dance.

 

 

[momma aimee]

:lurk5:

[Carpe]

There seems also to be some notion that you've either got your nose to the grind with textbooks and Latin declensions OR your children are comfortable in the 'real world' so know how to climb a tree and wave silk scarves around in an imterpretive dance.

 

Can we do Latin and interpretive scarf dancing? Maybe as one subject? That would be awesome.

[Peela]

I think its too complex to be too black and white about it- there is a lot more to homeschooling than academics. I know plenty of people who never intended to reach the academic levels I aimed for, yet their kids' gifts in various areas were nurtured.

However, I don't really have a problem with sweeping generalisations either- thats just human. Many of us know families where it seems the kids are being hard done by- not given the support and nurturing academically, that they could be, even on a fairly basic level. But even though I have no problem with generalisations and concern, I think its also sensible to remain openminded- and give them some space for their way of living. If I am not living with them, I can't really know what is going on. Its IS too easy to judge- best to do it lightly.

I know one family with 6 kids whose mother seemed to lurch from one crisis to the next for years- and often made jokes and looked for support, for not getting around to doing the academics with her kids. I was concerned. I talked about it with other mums- judged her. Yet years later- her kids are amazing. They are well behaved, polite (I had one stay over for a night and he was sooo nice to have over, helped around and did dishes without being asked etc), independent, the olders have part time jobs in interesting places, some are getting basketball scholarships to the U.S.- its a life. They are not living in the gutters somewhere! So they didn't get to academics for a couple of years- they are ok, and homeschooling still opened doors for them and gave them advantages.

 

I think its human to judge and make generalisations- but also wise to not be too heavy about it, to leave a gap, to be willing to change one's mind, and/or see the positive things that are going on as well. And one or 2 years is not the whole childhood. Who knows- the kids may pick up in teenage years as they develop goals.

 

Plenty- plenty- of kids at school do not do well, do not do their homework, and fall through the cracks. Many of them might be better off at home at least following their own passions. Why do we judge homeschoolers by a stricter standard than schooled kids?

[cathmom]

I know one family with 6 kids whose mother seemed to lurch from one crisis to the next for years- and often made jokes and looked for support, for not getting around to doing the academics with her kids. I was concerned. I talked about it with other mums- judged her. Yet years later- her kids are amazing. They are well behaved, polite (I had one stay over for a night and he was sooo nice to have over, helped around and did dishes without being asked etc), independent, the olders have part time jobs in interesting places, some are getting basketball scholarships to the U.S.- its a life. They are not living in the gutters somewhere! So they didn't get to academics for a couple of years- they are ok, and homeschooling still opened doors for them and gave them advantages.

 

I think its human to judge and make generalisations- but also wise to not be too heavy about it, to leave a gap, to be willing to change one's mind, and/or see the positive things that are going on as well. And one or 2 years is not the whole childhood. Who knows- the kids may pick up in teenage years as they develop goals.

 

Plenty- plenty- of kids at school do not do well, do not do their homework, and fall through the cracks. Many of them might be better off at home at least following their own passions. Why do we judge homeschoolers by a stricter standard than schooled kids?

 

Bravo! Great post!

[Kirch]

I think for me, it's hard to wrap my mind around telling someone that it's okay to *consistently* work at something less than your child's full ability or potential. Now, I'm talking about overall--obviously, each and every day is not going to live up to that. I also know there are seasons when stuff happens and it might not be possible for a while. But if a child isn't ever challenged, isn't generally being asked to step up and do work that he/she is capable of? I have a hard time with that idea. Education should foster growth, and treading water isn't going to do that. Or at least thinking it's okay to tread water and never really get back to reaching for more isn't going to do that.

 

Clearly, that level will be different for different children, and it's our responsibility as homeschoolers to know our kids' needs--academic needs, emotional needs, maturity, etc. So if your 4th grader needs to do 2nd grade math because that's where he's at academically, it would be silly to bow to pressure to put him in 4th grade math just because that's where he "should" be. But if he's capable of 4th grade math (or whatever), I guess I feel like a parent is doing him a disservice if he's not doing 4th grade math (unless it's a temporary thing and the long-term focus is to get him back to working at his full potential).

 

Even then, though, I'd be hesitant to judge in a real-life situation--who knows what kind of info I'm not privy to? I thought Peela said it really well:

 

I think its human to judge and make generalisations- but also wise to not be too heavy about it, to leave a gap, to be willing to change one's mind, and/or see the positive things that are going on as well. And one or 2 years is not the whole childhood. Who knows- the kids may pick up in teenage years as they develop goals.

[Rosy]

I always assumed that my kids would be ahead of the public schools, just because they're homeschooled. Then my son came of age. His test scores are very low, and he does what is required of him with as little effort as possible, so his retention is low. That combined with the fact that he won't take the time to read the question and answers and then choose the best answer on a standardized test means that on paper he is nowhere near where he "should" be.

 

So what are my options. Teaching him for longer than the 2.5-3 hours we're already doing school isn't my best option--he has already checked out. Getting a tutor doesn't address the problem. Lecturing him about the importance of education won't do any good. Taking any sort of punitive approach will just make him dread school. Right now he actually sort of likes it, he just isn't very good at it. :P

 

Since I know my son, I know that he will passionately pursue the things that interest him, so the approach I take is to continue to work with him in all of the core subject areas, nudging him forward enough to challenge him without discouraging him. Besides that, he has lots of time to dream and think and look at books. I trust that someday he'll be self-motivated, and then he won't be starting from ground zero but he also won't feel like learning is too hard or not fun.

 

Why am I sharing all of this? It is account of one child who is not meeting public school standards, whose mom isn't pushing him to do so or concerned about getting him caught up. If I was less secure I might be posting questions like "Is it ok for my 4th grader to use WWE2?" or "Please tell me that someday I won't have to review basic addition and subtraction with my 9 year old"...and many people would decide that I'm too lax or lazy or unfit to homeschool or whatever. I'm confident that I'm doing right by my son and that he wouldn't be better off elsewhere, but not everyone is...and some people might turn their back on educating their kids because of the judgments of others. Yes, I know the original thread was about people who simply put zero effort into teaching their kids...but how do I determine whether another family is putting in sufficient effort?

 

FYI, he has two sisters who are substantially ahead of grade level and one who learns very differently.

[venusmom]

For what it's worth...our school's test scores are pretty low. My son was in ps and in 2nd grade - every time I popped in - which was often because I was concerned...the classroom was darkened and a kids movie - not educational movie - was being shown. Then science lab last year consisted of a popular kids science show - every time they went, which was every 4 days. The teacher only had to plan an activity for a school that had 4 grade levels, 2nd - 4th, so she could have planned something along the same lines for all 4 levels and only had to plan every 4 days - but she showed a cartoon - well - until I complained. I had requested an excellent teacher that year and spent the entire year researching what my options were - and decided to homeschool. Therefore - I think there are probably some better school's than ours - but nobody has a more vested interest in my kids than I do. I also am reading 'Rediscovering the Lost Tools of Learning", by Douglas Wilson. Though he doesn't really endorse homeschooling - he clearly prefers it over public school. His views are strong - but he has some great advice - he also prefers a classical education. I just got my copy of WTM...so I'm excited to start reading it. I'm pretty new at homeschooling - and I worry about teaching my kids well enough - but as far as I can tell - homeschooled students have every opportunity to do as well in life as other types of education. I know there are different variables - but those are there for every type of school we could choose for our dc's.

[Donna]

I think its too complex to be too black and white about it- there is a lot more to homeschooling than academics. I know plenty of people who never intended to reach the academic levels I aimed for, yet their kids' gifts in various areas were nurtured.

However, I don't really have a problem with sweeping generalisations either- thats just human. Many of us know families where it seems the kids are being hard done by- not given the support and nurturing academically, that they could be, even on a fairly basic level. But even though I have no problem with generalisations and concern, I think its also sensible to remain openminded- and give them some space for their way of living. If I am not living with them, I can't really know what is going on. Its IS too easy to judge- best to do it lightly.

I know one family with 6 kids whose mother seemed to lurch from one crisis to the next for years- and often made jokes and looked for support, for not getting around to doing the academics with her kids. I was concerned. I talked about it with other mums- judged her. Yet years later- her kids are amazing. They are well behaved, polite (I had one stay over for a night and he was sooo nice to have over, helped around and did dishes without being asked etc), independent, the olders have part time jobs in interesting places, some are getting basketball scholarships to the U.S.- its a life. They are not living in the gutters somewhere! So they didn't get to academics for a couple of years- they are ok, and homeschooling still opened doors for them and gave them advantages.

 

I think its human to judge and make generalisations- but also wise to not be too heavy about it, to leave a gap, to be willing to change one's mind, and/or see the positive things that are going on as well. And one or 2 years is not the whole childhood. Who knows- the kids may pick up in teenage years as they develop goals.

 

Plenty- plenty- of kids at school do not do well, do not do their homework, and fall through the cracks. Many of them might be better off at home at least following their own passions. Why do we judge homeschoolers by a stricter standard than schooled kids?

 

:iagree: I love the way you said this.

 

I think there are many ways to make a living and be happy in life and many types of people with different talents, abilities, and interests. Not every child is going to reach a high academic level whether homeschooled or in PS. Not everyone needs to know Latin or high level math or organic chemistry. I also think standards cannot be a black and white thing ie. you must know this at this age. Homeschooling allows us to chose what our children learn and when the time is right for them to learn it.

 

I do think there are times when a parent is doing a disservice to their children by "homeschooling" them. If the child is not learning or progressing in something because the parent does not have the time or inclination to teach them then they might be better off in a situation where they will learn the basics or be assisted in progressing in some area.

 

I expect my child to be working and learning at a pace that is challenging to her. She would not get that in school so I homeschool her but that is my reason for homeschooling. I don't expect every person to be homeschooling for the same reasons as I am. I don't expect their homeschool to look like mine.

 

I have read many books on unschooling for example, where kids end up doing really neat things when allowed to follow their own interests. I am less judgemental about others ideas on homeschooling and more open to allowing my dd time to follow her own interests as a result. I can't say we unschool but my entire homeschool philosophy is much more relaxed than when I first started homeschooling. We go through some subjects much more slowly. For example we've spent the entire year on American History up to the Revolutionary War this year. If I was going by some state standards it might look like she wasn't keeping up because we didn't cover a lot of different topics but we have gone so in depth with this subject doing tons of readings, art projects, and supplements that she now has a wonderful understanding of this time in history. We worked a little every week on history but went where our bunny trails led us. Will we take another year to do the next 100 years, who knows?

[ktgrok]

I think the "standard" put out by Florida is a good one. It says the child should be making progress commensurate with their ability. So "behind" would mean when a child is capable of significantly more but is not making progress for lack of teaching. It's not about the child, it's about the teacher.

[Amy in NH]

After taking some graduate level work in education, my perspective has totally shifted. I used to be 100% attached to the idea that TWTM was the standard for educational excellence for every child. Now I believe that the individuality of each student is much more important than any standard.

 

John Dewey has some excellent words on the value of learning through real experience and the ownership of education resting with the student. Children who are too young to fully own their own "education" gain an amazing amount of knowledge and skill through real experiences - the focus for young children should be experiential. That's not to say I don't "teach" my young children, but in an ideal world I might consider all the bookwork to be supplemental to the rich variety of experiences I provide for them both inside and outside the home. An important component of this is the teaching of goal-setting, planning, and reflection on those experiences. When children grow old enough to understand that they need deeper knowledge in a particular subject in order to be successful in meeting their own goals, they will seek out that advanced knowledge. They become self-motivated learners with the cognitive maturity to quickly grasp the conceptual materials they seek, and they'll end up with a unique education tailored to their own interests. As a homeschool mother, I am a facilitator.

 

So, yes, I cover the basics. My kids could all read by 5 (I think this is an essential skill), math is non-negotiable, we basically follow TWTM (especially with the young children), but it's not a hill to die on for me anymore. I'm a lot more relaxed. And by the time they're in the middle of the logic stage they start to opt out of some WTM requirements. It goes something like this:

Q: don't like Latin - what language do you want to learn?

A: Mandarin for 1 year, Italian for the next, Japanese the year after

 

Q: don't like history because you feel like you covered it already - how about an alternative history?

A: I'm more interested in the history of science

 

etc.

 

Standards, and the public education model, assume that education is one-size-fits-all, children are not individuals but carbon copies, and that their education should be a rigidly manufactured product to set specifications. That's just not realistic, and IMO not the best way to educate anyone.

 

People who work to become educated will retain what they have learned because they were the ones who wanted it. Spoon feeding doesn't work. Forcing it in doesn't work. They have to want it. It has to be relevant to the life and experiences of the student.

 

My final thought on this issue regards alternative career paths. The vocational-education path has been let to grow-over since "tracking" was discontinued in the 1980s. All parents/kids now believe they need to attend college to become successful adults. Not only is this a false notion, but one that is injurious to our community economy. Academically talented students are not exposed to experiences with the trades; they wouldn't know if they'd like that type of work (which can be very satisfying and well-paying). Students who do pursue a trades-oriented vocational education are typically not academically successful. The result of such a system is "all workers and no chiefs" in the trade-work world, the decline of our national skillset, and loss of innovation. The one-size education enforced by standards has created this condition and is perpetuating it. IMO, an academically rigorous education a la TWTM should not be forced at the expense of these types of experiences.

Edited June 10, 2011 by Amy in NH
PS: I don't believe the other grad students took away the same message I did.

[momma aimee]

I think its too complex to be too black and white about it- there is a lot more to homeschooling than academics. I know plenty of people who never intended to reach the academic levels I aimed for, yet their kids' gifts in various areas were nurtured.

However, I don't really have a problem with sweeping generalisations either- thats just human. Many of us know families where it seems the kids are being hard done by- not given the support and nurturing academically, that they could be, even on a fairly basic level. But even though I have no problem with generalisations and concern, I think its also sensible to remain openminded- and give them some space for their way of living. If I am not living with them, I can't really know what is going on. Its IS too easy to judge- best to do it lightly.

I know one family with 6 kids whose mother seemed to lurch from one crisis to the next for years- and often made jokes and looked for support, for not getting around to doing the academics with her kids. I was concerned. I talked about it with other mums- judged her. Yet years later- her kids are amazing. They are well behaved, polite (I had one stay over for a night and he was sooo nice to have over, helped around and did dishes without being asked etc), independent, the olders have part time jobs in interesting places, some are getting basketball scholarships to the U.S.- its a life. They are not living in the gutters somewhere! So they didn't get to academics for a couple of years- they are ok, and homeschooling still opened doors for them and gave them advantages.

 

I think its human to judge and make generalisations- but also wise to not be too heavy about it, to leave a gap, to be willing to change one's mind, and/or see the positive things that are going on as well. And one or 2 years is not the whole childhood. Who knows- the kids may pick up in teenage years as they develop goals.

 

Plenty- plenty- of kids at school do not do well, do not do their homework, and fall through the cracks. Many of them might be better off at home at least following their own passions. Why do we judge homeschoolers by a stricter standard than schooled kids?

 

becuase, they are home. it is one thing for a kid to slip though cracks at school, a paid 40 hour a week stranger is in charge -- it is education in mass production.

 

But a child being educated at home, may well struggle and 'achieve low' because of challanges the child has -- and all understand that, at home or in school -- but they should not 'function lower' due to the simple facts butts have been sat on (theirs or their parents).

 

it is one thing for the public school to fail a child, but for the parents to -- that is simply unacceptable.

 

so YES I think homeschooled children and parents are and should be held to a higher standard than the public school child. It makes perfect sense to me.

[Night Elf]

Plenty- plenty- of kids at school do not do well, do not do their homework, and fall through the cracks. Many of them might be better off at home at least following their own passions. Why do we judge homeschoolers by a stricter standard than schooled kids?

 

I think about this as well when I see the advice that if someone can't homeshool well, they should put their children back in school. I would agree that some school is better than no school, but I disagree with the idea that someone else wants to define "well". For example, I've seen arguments both for and against the 'better late than early' type of learning. I'm a proponent and think the idea has merit. That would mean that someone with young children wouldn't push academics. But to someone else, that would seem the children aren't being well-educated and they should be placed in school. Another example is unschooling. I worked much harder at unschooling my children than I do with using curriculum. But seeing that I wasn't using a curriculum bothered some people and they assumed my children weren't being challenged intellectually. I just get a little upset at the idea that public school should be considered an automatic backup plan, because for some people it's really not.

 

The ironic thing about this topic is that I have only ever personally experienced harsh judgment from other homeschoolers. I guess sometimes it might be a defense mechanism. Some homeschoolers that don't get supported in their choice feel like they have to prove something so they get upset when they see other homeschoolers not working as hard? I don't know, just making guesses off the top of my head.

[Night Elf]

My final thought on this issue regards alternative career paths. The vocational-education path has been let to grow-over since "tracking" was discontinued in the 1980s. All parents/kids now believe they need to attend college to become successful adults. Not only is this a false notion, but one that is injurious to our community economy.

 

We're fighting this right now actually. My dd19 was bombarded with guilt by a couple of college bound friends, her dad, and her stepmom to go to college to BE someone. They literally told her she would be a nothing if she didn't have a college degree. Her best friend asked her how she would get married, own a house and car, and have children if she didn't have a college degree. :001_huh: Over the past year, they have reduced their nagging. However, I get the impression it's not because they accept her choice but they have given up on her and believe they will be there while she crashes and burns to pick her up with an "I told you so."

 

My dd19 has worked at the same job for nearly 2 years now and has been told she will become the general restaurant manager by the end of the summer. All we know is that it is a salaried position, but in my eyes, it's a career path. It's a nice little asian cafe. It's one of 5 of them owned by a few guys, none of them with college degrees. My BIL owns a Domino's franchise and he doesn't have a college degree. She'll have to work hard like they all did, but she sure is off to a good start. She just feels hurt that some of the people she feels are important to her are not supportive of her choice.