For those who have radically accelerated, how to do WTM?

[2smartones]

At what age or grade did you transition to logic and rhetoric? How did you cram the 3 cycles of 4 historical periods into fewer years? How ... well ... everything? Enlighten me, because some days, I feel overwhelmed, especially considering asynchronous development (when a child is ready for one WTM stage in one subject area but another stage for another subject area). I'd like to listen to all of your stories (especially if your children are in college or older). I'd like to soak it all in. There are days when I feel we're transitioning, and days when I feel like we're spinning our wheels.

 

:lurk5:

[SunshineMom]

:lurk5:

[LittleIzumi]

I need to read TWTM at some point :lol:. I just googled their particular stages and the shift from grammar to logic is, "displayed by an increasing impatience with rote memorization and a growing capacity to understand the whys behind principles and rules"? Dd does that constantly with eeeeeeverything at 5, so that can't be all of it. She does logic as a subject but she can't be IN the logic stage at 5. I must read TWTM to figure out what I'm missing, lol.

[matilda]

My reading of WTM is not that you would be cramming 4 years of history into 3, but that if the child is ready in the 4th year (or sooner), you would help them to start making the connections of Logic or the analysis of Rhetoric. You will still be studying the same material, just digging a little deeper and instead of memorizing, you will be discussing or expecting a higher level of narration/outline. I feel like this is what makes WTM wonderful. I am not locked into a certain level for any subject. If we are ready to dabble in a higher level of thinking, then we can.

[Kates]

Honestly, I stick with the history time periods, science areas, etc., but not with the grammar/dialectic/rhetoric stages. They just don't apply to highly/exceptionally/profoundly gifted kids.

 

For example, when my child asked me (at age 2, no less), "Who's God and why can't I see him?" I knew I was in trouble ;) At age 6, when he was doing 8-function math problems (with 4+ digit numbers) in his head and taught himself subtraction through algebra, I realized that we weren't in Kansas anymore. And at age 7, when we were studying mummification and he blurted out, "Well, that's stupid - they're dead!!!" we went through the varying religious viewpoints of the region and compared them to Judaism and Christianity...I gave up trying to teach him in grammar-school terms. :D

 

Highly advanced kids often develop abstract thinking skills much earlier than "normal" kids - therefore, the grammar/dialectic/rhetoric age ranges don't apply in the same way. My 13yo is on track with the rotation, but he's been in the rhetoric stage for at least two years. We analyze the literature, he writes full papers, he does analysis and reaction projects, he does the full lab reports, he does the higher math. We talk about not only the who, what, how, and why, but the "so what?" We go through not only the info, but the worldview behind it.

 

There are two schools of thought - compact the info into fewer years, or expand the standards to let them dig deeper in the same amount of time. I tend to go with the 2nd ;) I've found that letting my son dig until he's satisfied, rather than just covering the material and moving on at the speed of light (which is what doing "normal" school feels like at times), is a better option for him. He'll be working on several AP and CLEP level classes for the next few years, and has decided to spend what would normally be his jr. and sr. year working on a distance degree. He'll still enter college as an on-campus student around age 18, but if all goes according to his plan, he'll enter as a junior.

 

Hope that helps?

[2smartones]

...not that you would be cramming 4 years of history into 3, but that if the child is ready in the 4th year (or sooner), you would help them to start making the connections of Logic or the analysis of Rhetoric...

 

But what if your child will graduate 3-4-5+ years early? It seems you'd be skipping or combining stages somewhere along the way. You may do year 3 of history at the grammar level but do year 3 at the rhetoric level the next cycle. Where's the logic level for that time period? Does it "just happen" somewhere along the way? And what about all the extra reading and such. How do you have time for that when there's SO. MUCH. STUFF. to soak in, in every. single. subject? I'm picturing a toddler who wiggles free from your grip in the store and takes off running for the toys... except in an academic sense. When to slow down? When to push? When to advance to the next stage? When to skip a stage entirely? How to find the time for hundreds and thousands of years worth of knowledge and still have time for piano lessons or soccer or friends.

 

The reason I even bring all this up is that people in my real life world who send their kids to classical homeschool academies look at me like I'm crazy when I say we really don't do the grammar stage. Why would we? It's just rote memorization of things they've known for years, right? Their child may be learning what a noun is. Mine is learning how to write a well thought-out paragraph with topic sentence, details in order, colorful words (with a thesaurus, of course)... Not just the name of the current president, but why we need three branches of government and how they all work together.

Edited June 3, 2011 by 2smartones

[Kates]

I need to read TWTM at some point :lol:. I just googled their particular stages and the shift from grammar to logic is, "displayed by an increasing impatience with rote memorization and a growing capacity to understand the whys behind principles and rules"? Dd does that constantly with eeeeeeverything at 5, so that can't be all of it. She does logic as a subject but she can't be IN the logic stage at 5. I must read TWTM to figure out what I'm missing, lol.

 

Actually, she can. It's not common, but highly advanced kids develop logical and abstract thinking skills years before we think they can. My son was there around age 5, though I didn't understand the levels at the time.

[JenneinCA]

We are not going to get three complete cycles of WTM style history or science in. We are instead teaching to the child.

 

Math at the level for the child. Science at the level for the child. Writing at the level for the child. And so on. None of them line up with age/grade. I have given up caring about the level on the cover and instead choose what works. It isn't always pretty and it is HARD on me. But I haven't found any other solution.

 

I am muddling along doing the best I can because that is all I can do. Maybe someday I will feel confident about the choices we made, but today isn't it.

[Kates]

But what if your child will graduate 3-4-5+ years early? It seems you'd be skipping or combining stages somewhere along the way. You may do year 3 of history at the grammar level but do year 3 at the rhetoric level the next cycle. Where's the logic level for that time period? Does it "just happen" somewhere along the way? And what about all the extra reading and such. How do you have time for that when there's SO. MUCH. STUFF. to soak in, in every. single. subject? I'm picturing a toddler who wiggles free from your grip in the store and takes off running for the toys... except in an academic sense. When to slow down? When to push? When to advance to the next stage? When to skip a stage entirely? How to find the time for hundreds and thousands of years worth of knowledge and still have time for piano lessons or soccer or friends.

 

The reason I even bring all this up is that people in my real life world who send their kids to classical homeschool academies look at me like I'm crazy when I say we really don't do the grammar stage. Why would we? It's just rote memorization of things they've known for years, right? Their child may be learning what a noun is. Mine is learning how to write a well thought-out paragraph with topic sentence, details in order, colorful words (with a thesaurus, of course)... Not just the name of the current president, but why we need three branches of government and how they all work together.

 

When to slow down and when to push...now that's the million-dollar question. The answer that I've come to is that you just plain won't spend 4 years in each. Quite frankly, your child is probably through much of the grammar stage already - they'll pick up the little details WHILE analyzing the application of them. Still do teach them - if she doesn't know what a linking verb is, or how to state a fraction, teach it to them - but don't dwell on them. Once they've got it, go back into teaching at their level.

 

While many elementary-age kids enjoy memorizing random facts, gifted kids tend to shut down at the thought of doing so. To them, it's a useless exercise. Instead, they often need application and analysis, even in elementary...so, it's fine to give it to them. You'll be able to tell when you're pushing too hard and when you're not challenging enough, and you'll kind of end up charting your own path. And that's perfectly ok.

 

WTM is not a manual for teaching a gifted kid, but it is a good tool. There are a lot of great ideas and tips you'll be able to pick up from it, but you'll need to be willing to go your own way when necessary.

[JennW in SoCal]

At what age or grade did you transition to logic and rhetoric? How did you cram the 3 cycles of 4 historical periods into fewer years? How ... well ... everything? Enlighten me, because some days, I feel overwhelmed, especially considering asynchronous development (when a child is ready for one WTM stage in one subject area but another stage for another subject area). I'd like to listen to all of your stories (especially if your children are in college or older). I'd like to soak it all in. There are days when I feel we're transitioning, and days when I feel like we're spinning our wheels.

 

:lurk5:

 

Well. I've certainly been in the trenches and have lived to tell the tale! Would you like to hear more about spinning wheels and being overwhelmed with asynchronous development? Or about the nuts and bolts of how we did things?

 

My kids were never anything like the docile sponges described in the grammar stage section of the WTM. I bought my first edition of the WTM back in 2000 when I first started homeschooling, and it sat on my shelf for several years, only coming down when I wanted to refer to the book lists. Rote memorization was not an option here -- both boys from an early age were abstract thinkers and making connections.

 

I never worried about getting through the 4 year history cycle three times. We loosely touched on the history cycle through our reading choices during the "grammar stage" years. Each boy, starting around age 11 or 12, began a formal run through of the cycle. In the high school years they focused more on one period or another. We took detours, but what was nice was really saving modern history for the high school years, when they were a little more mature to handle the realities of the 20th century. (One in particular is a really sensitive/empathetic soul and certain books or movies would have crushed his soul.)

 

I'm not sure a gifted child needs to spend lots of time on the logic stage tasks of outlining, for instance. Perhaps you shouldn't get bogged down in thinking what those levels mean, or whether you are "skipping a stage" or not. Start using some of the techniques as soon as it seems beneficial, or just ignore others that seem a waste of time.

 

I would loosely describe my 11 years of homeschooling by saying that, early on, the level of output lagged behind the input level -- they read or listened to advanced books, but weren't ready to analyze or write long essays. But that evened out fairly early, say, maybe age 13 or 14? And it didn't even out because of 4 years of doing outlines (we certainly didn't!) but it just become clear that they could do more and were ready for more. By the way, puberty throws a monkey wrench into everything, with higher brain functions temporarily shutting down:tongue_smilie:

 

One of my kids, a 2e kid that is/was asynchronous with a vengeance, graduated at 17. The other passed me in math and science and is now getting A's in his community college classes. He just turned 16. I look back over the years and wonder how on earth I did it. They are well educated, eager to continue learning, and thriving in general, but in looking back I remember mostly spinning my wheels and being overwhelmed.

 

This is a long but breezy way of telling you that the details of a classical education don't matter. Focus on the child in front of you. If he or she is happily engaged and making progress, well, that is really all that matters. If your home is filled with quality literature, stimulating math, and fascinating science, and if you are engaged with your child, discussing and sharing and finding answers to questions, your child WILL have an excellent education.

Edited June 3, 2011 by JennW in SoCal

[quark]

But what if your child will graduate 3-4-5+ years early?

 

The trick is to remember that WTM is the tool. Your child is the reality.

 

The reason I even bring all this up is that people in my real life world who send their kids to classical homeschool academies look at me like I'm crazy

 

It's their problem, not yours! But I feel for you. I am very well acquainted with the overwhelmed feeling.

 

My elementary-aged child will begin high school in some subjects in the fall. I went from lurking on the K-8 board to lurking on the accelerated board to finally lurking full time on the high school board. That is my reality. I coudn't get WTM to fit around my reality so I dropped the tool.

[boscopup]

:lurk5: While my kids aren't PG or anything, I have seen glimpses of logic stage thinking in my 6 year old, and I can't even imagine it taking him 4 years to figure out how to write an outline. I think he'd take to outlining pretty quick as soon as I teach him, and that will very likely be well before 5th grade. He's also making connections in history that I wasn't expecting him to yet, so yeah, I think we're going to probably somewhat asynchronously go through the stages, but at least I have a list there of what is expected, and if we're ahead of that and we get bogged down somewhere, I can comfortably go sideways if we need to in order to allow development to take us ahead again.

 

We won't be speeding through the history cycles though, as my kid isn't gifted enough to necessitate graduating really early. We plan to homeschool the normal 12 years, and that last couple years might be college courses or something, but we'll be officially still "high school". Of course, things could change down the road, depending on his maturity and such.

 

I'll be interested to see the other replies here! This is something I've thought about at times. :lurk5:

[Embassy]

I don't think gifted kids fit into the stages very well.

 

If a child is graduating early I would either expect that they go through the information quicker or you would choose the most important things to focus on.

[8filltheheart]

But what if your child will graduate 3-4-5+ years early? It seems you'd be skipping or combining stages somewhere along the way. You may do year 3 of history at the grammar level but do year 3 at the rhetoric level the next cycle. Where's the logic level for that time period? Does it "just happen" somewhere along the way? And what about all the extra reading and such. How do you have time for that when there's SO. MUCH. STUFF. to soak in, in every. single. subject? I'm picturing a toddler who wiggles free from your grip in the store and takes off running for the toys... except in an academic sense. When to slow down? When to push? When to advance to the next stage? When to skip a stage entirely? How to find the time for hundreds and thousands of years worth of knowledge and still have time for piano lessons or soccer or friends.

 

The reason I even bring all this up is that people in my real life world who send their kids to classical homeschool academies look at me like I'm crazy when I say we really don't do the grammar stage. Why would we? It's just rote memorization of things they've known for years, right? Their child may be learning what a noun is. Mine is learning how to write a well thought-out paragraph with topic sentence, details in order, colorful words (with a thesaurus, of course)... Not just the name of the current president, but why we need three branches of government and how they all work together.

 

 

Cyclical history and dividing ages into grammar/logic/rhetoric are modern inventions. That is not what classical education was in the historical sense. The latter were subjects studied and mastered, not stages of development.

 

The expression artes liberales, chiefly used during the Middle Ages, does not mean arts as we understand the word at this present day, but those branches of knowledge which were taught in the schools of that time. They are called liberal (Latin liber, free), because they serve the purpose of training the free man, in contrast with the artes illiberales, which are pursued for economic purposes; their aim is to prepare the student not for gaining a livelihood, but for the pursuit of science in the strict sense of the term, i.e. the combination of philosophy and theology known as scholasticism. They are seven in number and may be arranged in two groups, the first embracing grammar, rhetoric, and dialectic, in other words, the sciences of language, of oratory, and of logic, better known as the artes sermocinales, or language studies; the second group comprises arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, and music, i.e. the mathematico-physical disciplines, known as the artes reales, or physicae. The first group is considered to be the elementary group, whence these branches are also called artes triviales, or trivium, i.e. a well-beaten ground like the junction of three roads, or a cross-roads open to all. Contrasted with them we find the mathematical disciplines as artes quadriviales, or quadrivium, or a road with four branches. The seven liberal arts are thus the members of a system of studies which embraces language branches as the lower, the mathematical branches as the intermediate, and science properly so called as the uppermost and terminal grade.

 

If you would like to read more, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01760a.htm

 

There is no need to "accelerate" in speed, simply teach appropriate in content. In the younger grades, input will exceed output simply b/c of motor development, maturity, etc. But, there is no need to repeat subjects 3 times. Everything in history is taught at an introductory level in college, etc. I would simply focus more on teaching what they are ready to deal with.

 

As far as graduating early, there are 2 schools of thought on that. Jenny in FL has a dd that graduated at 12 and just graduated from Mary Baldwin College with her bachelors at 16. She has discussed the pros and cons of it. Kathy in Richmond chose the other option which was to not graduate her children until 18 and simply continued to teach them appropriately at home. Here is a thread with some discussion: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272264&highlight=early and threads with examples of what Kathy has done: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1559496&highlight=linear#post1559496

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2701753&highlight=ap+exam#post2701753

[2smartones]

These are exactly the kinds of responses I wanted! When people ask me about my teaching style, I tell them that I lean toward classical, but I don't fully embrace it. This is why!! It simply doesn't work for us. I tried it in the beginning with my oldest (gung-ho, in fact), but we both ended up in tears. I left grammar in the dust a long time ago. For both of my kids (PG), the grammar stage was the toddler/preschool years. :lol:

 

So you've all given me validation. We're doing it right, and we'll keep going the way we've been going. Use the tools, but ignore the timelines. Thank you! I'm not as crazy or different as I thought I was.

[EKS]

I don't think a kid who needs radical acceleration is going to fit into the WTM box, or any box with more typical students in mind. I also think that the idea of the grammar, logic, and rhetoric stages is a bit contrived. I think these stages can just as easily be described in more familiar terms--elementary, middle, and high school. But grammar, logic, and rhetoric sound more classical and may be more palatable to homeschoolers trying to break away from the labels of brick and mortar schools.

 

That said, my younger son is on the edge of being radically accelerated and the way things are going, I anticipate that he will be truly radically accelerated by the time he approaches high school age. I just meet him where he is and adapt were I need to. I'm comfortable using college level texts and intend to farm out subjects I'm not comfortable teaching to the local CC when we get to that point. If we get to that point before he is in 11th grade, I'll look for online options, such as AoPS for math.

 

I do have to be careful to avoid a lot of repetition with him. So doing three four-year history cycles would send him over the edge. Same with the science repetition. I'm not sure how that will play out at this point.

[zaichiki]

She does logic as a subject but she can't be IN the logic stage at 5.

 

IME:

Ds (12) always asked a lot of questions when he was younger, but last year he really hit the logic stage. He doesn't just want to collect facts about history. Now he wants to discuss what was happening in the minds of certain historical figures and how their experiences influenced the decisions they made. He asked about that a bit when he was younger, but now the entire focus of his history studies is about *why* certain figures made certain choices and how those choices affected other figures and "caused" what we read about in history. He wants to dig more deeply into the decisions and the thinking behind them. He compares certain historical events and people to current events and people. He compares civilizations, though we always did that -- now it's on a deeper level. He challenges EVERYTHING and I don't just mean that he challenges authority and wants to make his own choices or know the reasons I make certain choices (that was there before). It's way more. I don't think I am explaining it well. I'll keep thinking about this.

 

Does that help at all?

[LittleIzumi]

IME:

Ds (12) always asked a lot of questions when he was younger, but last year he really hit the logic stage. He doesn't just want to collect facts about history. Now he wants to discuss what was happening in the minds of certain historical figures and how their experiences influenced the decisions they made. He asked about that a bit when he was younger, but now the entire focus of his history studies is about *why* certain figures made certain choices and how those choices affected other figures and "caused" what we read about in history. He wants to dig more deeply into the decisions and the thinking behind them. He compares certain historical events and people to current events and people. He compares civilizations, though we always did that -- now it's on a deeper level. He challenges EVERYTHING and I don't just mean that he challenges authority and wants to make his own choices or know the reasons I make certain choices (that was there before). It's way more. I don't think I am explaining it well. I'll keep thinking about this.

 

Does that help at all?

 

That makes sense. It almost sounds like philosophical "whys" and "what-ifs" in logic stage as opposed to scientific "whys" and "what-ifs" from dd5.

[Guest]

IME:

Ds (12) always asked a lot of questions when he was younger, but last year he really hit the logic stage. He doesn't just want to collect facts about history. Now he wants to discuss what was happening in the minds of certain historical figures and how their experiences influenced the decisions they made. He asked about that a bit when he was younger, but now the entire focus of his history studies is about *why* certain figures made certain choices and how those choices affected other figures and "caused" what we read about in history. He wants to dig more deeply into the decisions and the thinking behind them. He compares certain historical events and people to current events and people. He compares civilizations, though we always did that -- now it's on a deeper level. He challenges EVERYTHING and I don't just mean that he challenges authority and wants to make his own choices or know the reasons I make certain choices (that was there before). It's way more. I don't think I am explaining it well. I'll keep thinking about this.

 

Does that help at all?

 

Yep, it makes a lot of sense to me also :). Adrian has many questions these days also. He is trying to understand reasons and morals to stories. He is definitely not at the stage you are describing. Thank you for you post :).

[Guest]

Cyclical history and dividing ages into grammar/logic/rhetoric are modern inventions. That is not what classical education was in the historical sense. The latter were subjects studied and mastered, not stages of development.

 

If you would like to read more, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01760a.htm

 

There is no need to "accelerate" in speed, simply teach appropriate in content. In the younger grades, input will exceed output simply b/c of motor development, maturity, etc. But, there is no need to repeat subjects 3 times. Everything in history is taught at an introductory level in college, etc. I would simply focus more on teaching what they are ready to deal with.

 

As far as graduating early, there are 2 schools of thought on that. Jenny in FL has a dd that graduated at 12 and just graduated from Mary Baldwin College with her bachelors at 16. She has discussed the pros and cons of it. Kathy in Richmond chose the other option which was to not graduate her children until 18 and simply continued to teach them appropriately at home. Here is a thread with some discussion: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272264&highlight=early and threads with examples of what Kathy has done: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1559496&highlight=linear#post1559496

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2701753&highlight=ap+exam#post2701753

 

Thank you for this. In our case, I certainly don't consider my son advanced at any of the levels mentioned before but even if he were, the second route you mentioned taken by Kath in Richmond would work best for my way of thinking and goals for my family :). Thank you for the links too.

[Guest]

My kids were never anything like the docile sponges described in the grammar stage section of the WTM. I bought my first edition of the WTM back in 2000 when I first started homeschooling, and it sat on my shelf for several years, only coming down when I wanted to refer to the book lists. Rote memorization was not an option here -- both boys from an early age were abstract thinkers and making connections.

 

Thank you so much for your post. The above I quoted is exactly the situation in our home. (ETA: Except I bought the WTM in 2008 ;) I think, or 2007)

 

Focus on the child in front of you. If he or she is happily engaged and making progress, well, that is really all that matters. If your home is filled with quality literature, stimulating math, and fascinating science, and if you are engaged with your child, discussing and sharing and finding answers to questions, your child WILL have an excellent education.

 

This part of your post spoke to me the most. I am at the, figuring out how to approach this, stage. This part was what I needed to hear. Thank you :).

Edited June 4, 2011 by Guest

[Momling]

We are instead teaching to the child.

 

Math at the level for the child. Science at the level for the child. Writing at the level for the child. And so on. None of them line up with age/grade. I have given up caring about the level on the cover and instead choose what works.

:iagree:

 

I just do what works. Grade level is artificial anyway. There's nothing inherently 'grade level' about history or science or writing or even math or foreign language. It's about how you approach a topic and the depth you give it... There are plenty of things to learn. I promise you won't run out! ;-)