Is Apologia rigorous enough for a student headed toward science & engineering?

[WTMCassandra]

I thought I read somewhere on the boards that it wasn't . . .

 

We have been planning for years to use this when we got to jr/sr high, but now that I'm actually starting to plan with an "S&E bent" in mind, I'm wondering if this will work.

 

I'd love to use Apologia, but if it isn't rigorous enough, what is? A creation perspective is important to me.

[Grace is Sufficient]

My husband is an aerospace engineer, with a Masters in something like Aeronautical engineering from MIT, and he says it is. He has used it with our kids, both of whom take after him and will probably go into some kind of science field. He has been overall very pleased with it.

 

He would concede that the labs, due to Wile's requirement that they be easily doable at home, are less in-depth than others. However, the labs demonstrate the principles adequately. At this stage of their education, we think it's more important that they learn how to perform a carefully controlled experiment and produce a full lab report, anyway.

 

HTH

$.02

[8filltheheart]

My perspective is that there are simply better choices out there. The problems in the Apologia books are simply regurgitated problems from the chapter. There isn't a lot of emphasis on stretching the students to apply the concepts to difficult/challenging problems. At the beginning of this yr I compared the chemistry book to 2 traditional texts and there is a significant difference in what is required to demonstrate comprehension of material.

 

I have not regretted the decision to move away from Apologia and look at the other books I have seen recommend on this forum.

[Brenda in MA]

My perspective is that there are simply better choices out there. The problems in the Apologia books are simply regurgitated problems from the chapter. There isn't a lot of emphasis on stretching the students to apply the concepts to difficult/challenging problems.

 

I heartily agree with momof7. We used the Apologia Biology book and thought it was OK. I am a chemical engineer and I found the Chemistry book not to have the depth I was expecting and left out several topics (like the logarithmic calculation of pH) that I would expect to find in a high school Chemistry I book. I know that some use and like the Apologia books, but if your child is interested in admission to a competitive school and needs to score well on the SAT2, I suggest you look elsewhere.

 

Brenda

[Sandy in KY]

Two perspectives: a mom who teaches biology and chemistry at the local college is teaching biology and chemistry in our co-op right now. (My son just finished Apologia Biology and is taking chemistry next year. He is planning on chemical engineering.) She didn't care for the way the biology was organized, although the content was "ok," and she is using a different text for chemistry this year. Her main complaint is that Apologia doesn't require as much critical analysis as other curricula that she's used. Sorry I can't elaborate more than that.

 

On the other hand, we have friends who have used Apologia science all the way through, and their two oldest boys have recently graduated with chemical engineering degrees. The boys said Apologia prepared them really well for their college level courses.

 

IMHO, Apologia is great for a family where the primary teacher is not a scientist. If you have a science background, then you could probably teach from any text. But for those of us who are not scientifically oriented, Apologia is great. I know that if I had to teach high school science to my kids, this curriculum gives me the tools I need, and my kids will be prepared for college level courses.

[tbmoran]

My perspective is that there are simply better choices out there. The problems in the Apologia books are simply regurgitated problems from the chapter. There isn't a lot of emphasis on stretching the students to apply the concepts to difficult/challenging problems. At the beginning of this yr I compared the chemistry book to 2 traditional texts and there is a significant difference in what is required to demonstrate comprehension of material.

 

I have not regretted the decision to move away from Apologia and look at the other books I have seen recommend on this forum.

 

Would you mind sharing with me what other books have been recommended that you think are better than the Apologia books. I have been absent from the board a long time and haven't heard of these alternatives. My son is looking towards a degree in engineering and I want him to be adequately prepared.

 

Another question, if we go on to take the Advanced Courses through Apologia does that help make up for the deficiencies any, or is the same deficiencies true of the Advanced Courses also?

 

Thanks!

[Linda in NM]

I'm not a scientist by any means, so we've chosen to use Abeka biology with my son next year (9th grade). We're using the DVDs--so I don't have to deal with the concepts or the labs! I'd suggest looking at some of the video-based programs...I liked the way Abeka structured its biology.

[4wildberrys]

Well---you could look into BJU or Abeka DVD science courses. They cost BIG bucks---but are very rigorous and definitely college prep! You can get all the supplies to do rigorous lab experiments at home from http://www.hometrainingtools.com/ ---also quite expensive. :glare:Another option is CC courses---college prep level for sure. If you really want to use Apologia because of ease of use or teaching----you can always email the company with your concerns and questions to help make your decision :001_smile: and/or point you in the right direction for giving your son a pre-engineering prep degree. :D

[WTMCassandra]

Thank you all for your differing perspectives. They are very valuable. I will keep these things in mind.

[teachmom3]

A lot of the decision may rest on the availability of someone with a science background. Because of its extensive explanation, Apologia's texts are designed to be self-teaching, more so than most other high school science texts. Because of this, it's often a better choice for a student who doesn't have a science-knowledgeable person available.

 

I own all of the Apologia main science titles from biology on up (including the advanced titles). As has been mentioned in a previous response to your post, Apologia's labs, because they're intended to be done primarily with household materials, do tend to be a little on the light side.

 

Of the main science courses of Apologia, physics is probably the most "light." Indeed, a homeschooling friend of mine, who's got a couple of master's degrees (one in mech engineering) and I (whose bachelor's and doctorate degrees are in biological fields) call Apologia Physics "Physics Lite." However, if you combine Apologia Physics withe Apologia Advanced Physics, you'll probably end up with something close to a more rigorous high school level text (except for the labs).

 

The difference between Apologia Chemistry and a more rigorous high school chemistry text is less than the differences with the physics texts, but I would still combine Apologia Chemistry with Apologia Advanced Chemistry to get a rigorous one-year high school chemistry course (again, except for the labs).

 

Why, then, even bother with Apologia? The main reason would be, as I mentioned above, the availability of someone with a science background. In particular, chemistry labs using "real" lab equipment are difficult to do unless there is someone with a science background available to teach or at least to help. Also, if what you're considering using is an honors-level chemistry or physics text, the concepts in those can become very hairy without someone there to help explain them.

 

Actually, though, IMHO, for a student heading into science/engineering, there is something more important than the high school science preparation. . .and that is math preparation. The decision of Apologia vs. other science texts pales in comparison to ensuring that the student is mathematically prepared.

 

JMHO!

[percytruffle]

There is anecdotal evidence and differing opinion on either side of the Apologia debate it seems. This comes up regularly.

 

Dh is a scientist/engineer and we used Apologia.

 

Dd is at the local cc now. She is a bio major. Yesterday she found out her results from her Evolution class final she took on Monday. She was the only student to get an A on the final. This course is the cc's most upper level bio elective. She is a paid tutor for bio and chem and will be a paid lab assistant next year. Using Apologia doesn't seem to have hurt her any. Her only recommendation is to complete both the bio and anatomy books otherwise you will be missing a piece of the bio puzzle since it isn't covered in the Apologia bio book.

 

Apologia's approach and writing style works great for some students, others flounder with it or become annoyed by the talkative style. It seems to matter how good a match it is to your dc's learning style. If the fit is good, it will prepare them well enough. I suspect that those students who are more analytical in nature, the typical engineer brain wiring, may not relate to Apologia's style as readily as others.

[merylvdm]

My daughter has only used Apologia so I can't compare with anything else. She loved it, I am no scientist, so I was happy. She took the AP Chemistry test on Tuesday. On going through the Princeton Review book the few days before she said Apologia had prepared her really well for the test. She said there were no sections that she was clueless on.

She was reasonably happy with the exam - I will have to wait until the results come out to tell you the end of my story. If she got a 4 ... I guess the Chemistry at least is adequate.

I like the fact that she always understood what was going on - and the occasional time she had a question, she'd email Dr Wile and he replied within hours.

Meryl

[WTMCassandra]

Thank you very much for this. It is very helpful. Oh yes, I am definitely sweating the math, too.

 

So far I have learned that I really need to start Algebra 1 in 8th grade and make sure he goes all the way through Calculus. It's all a bit daunting for this English-major-Mama. I'm not worried about writing, literature, history, etc., but the math and science are challenging for me to plan. I am not really sure what calculus really even is. But that's a topic for another thread *sigh.*

 

So it seems to me that if I'm going to try for the community college for a science, the priority should be physics. Chemistry would be the second choice. Perhaps I should do the Calculus this route too. Would my student drown taking both Calculus and Physics at a community college his senior year?

[WTMCassandra]

I suspect that those students who are more analytical in nature, the typical engineer brain wiring, may not relate to Apologia's style as readily as others.

 

Ah, this is valuable to know. Yes, this sounds very much like my son. I guess I will have to wait and see.

[JenneinCA]

From someone with a Mechanical Engineering degree...

 

I have not looked at apologia texts or abeka because we need secular here BUT when I was in college I heard no complaints from people about their previous biology classes or chemistry classes, regardless of the high school. We had everything from rural schools with no AP classes at all to heavy duty prep school with tons of them. The only thing people complained about was lack of MATH. I heard a lot of "my teacher in high school didn't cover this" but it was only a real problem in math.

 

The biggest issues for my classmates were lack of adequate knowledge in math and lack of knowledge of how to study. (That is what to do when you don't know the the math you should know!)

[WTMCassandra]

Thank you for this reality check. I am definitely hearing all over the place that math is key. It is ironic because I am a total mathphobe. Soooo, I will start another thread asking about math.

[asta]

You might want to read the following thread:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23798

 

 

asta

[Kimm in WA]

Meryl & Lisa,

 

Have you students done Apologia Physics? If so, what did you think?

 

Kimm

[Suzanne in ABQ]

I agree. I have a Mechanical Engineering degree, and I never had any Chemistry in high school. I took General Chemistry in university, and managed to squeek out an "A". It was hard, but it was possible to learn everything I needed to know in the the college course without ever having opened a high school Chemistry book. I know that a strong Chemistry background isn't essential to ME or EE. If they want to do Chemical Engineering, that may be another story. But, I wouldn't sweat the science. Stress the math.

[8filltheheart]

I agree with both of you about the science and the math. :) My ds never took physics in high school. His first exposure to physics was calculus based physics this yr in college. He did OK, but those 2 classes were the hardest classes he took this yr. Listening to him when he called had me wishing we had done some physics in high school. His POV was that it wouldn't have mattered. His study group had all taken physics in high school and they all struggled in the class equally to him.

 

Math is absolutely vital. However, I also want to offer a slightly different perspective about high school science. I agree that the high school science text isn't going to make or break the student in their college courses. Yet, I do think that they can create a false sense of security (if that make any sense). I know someone who used the Apologia texts and is an average math student that is currently in college wanting to be an engineering major. At home the sense was he was a fantastic science student. He has struggled majorly in college with science and math.

 

I think our own children's successes are probably anecdotal. I think my ds did fine in physics b/c he is so strong in math that all he really had to do was manage the science part. He breezed through college chemistry without much thought. (He had a solid chemistry background going into those semesters. He actually used Apologia with a teacher that supplemented so much that I have a stack of papers from the supplement almost as thick as the textbook itself. She ended up switching textbooks b/c she wasn't satisfied.) I think the other young man I am referring to struggles b/c he doesn't have the same ease of math. He is having to constantly learn them both......the science and the math.

 

All of that is to say that after reading this thread is that maybe the purpose behind high school science and having difficult application problems isn't so much about simply the science. Perhaps high school science can reveal a lot about math skills. In turn, that may help formulate more realistic college goals or help refocus math objectives within high school.

 

I have no idea.....simply thinking outloud here.

[percytruffle]

Not so far. Dd was heading into bio or chem and we knew that if she needed physics she would just take it at the local cc. The physics teacher there is known far and wide. He is great! But, we just found out he is retiring this year. Ds, who is headed to the cc for his senior year next year (part time) will take physics at home. I'm not sure if we'll choose Apologia for him. We haven't decided yet. We have a bit of an unusual circumstance when it comes to physics though, because dh's degrees are in physics. I am kind of counting on him to take the lead and he may not use just one text, if you kwim. I am not opposed to using Apologia physics. I would certainly choose it over something like Saxon (way too much math for my non-sciencey ds). I am going to look into Conceptual Physics for him. So, sorry, can't help you on how well it has worked out using Apologia for physics, so far.

[Ms. Riding Hood]

I'd love to use Apologia, but if it isn't rigorous enough, what is? A creation perspective is important to me.

 

Cassandra,

 

Oldest ds, the science/engineering nut, has used nothing but Apologia science--biology in the 8th grade, chem/adv chem in the 9th, non-Apologia computer science in 10th, and this year physics and adv. physics. Simply put, he loves these textbooks and has learned much and well from them. He passed the AP chem exam with flying colors and we have similar expectations for the AP B-level physics exam (Apologia is not calculus-based and will not prepare students for the C-level exams.) Ds cannot say enough good about them, and he's as engineering-minded as you can get. People always disagree about these books, but as Percytruffle mentioned, it's probably more about fit with a particular student. If you have a kid who is a science person, they can certainly learn enough to be competitve with high school peers. If a creation perspective is important, then it seems to me a worthy choice.

 

By the way, the only teacher ds now loves more that Jay Wile is Ed Burger, of Thinkwell calculus. Ds used Saxon up through adv. math, and then went into this. He's very impressed.

[Brenda in MA]

All of that is to say that after reading this thread is that maybe the purpose behind high school science and having difficult application problems isn't so much about simply the science. Perhaps high school science can reveal a lot about math skills. In turn, that may help formulate more realistic college goals or help refocus math objectives within high school.

 

Momof7,

 

I think you are right on the money here! My son is just completing a challenging AP-level Physics course, and I've seen his math skills and confidence really grow this year. I think the level of challenging Physics problems he's tackled have required him to really apply the math he's learned (he's also in PreCalc this year). It's been a win-win situation for his overall understanding in both subjects.

 

I had essentially no Physics course in high school (new teacher, didn't really understand the material), and I went on to do well in college Physics, but -- as momof7 said -- it was by far my hardest course that first year. I also had a pretty solid math background. A strong Physics course would have been really helpful in high school, but strong math was more important.

 

Brenda

[Rhondabee]

Lynne, did your ds finish both the basic and advanced Physics in one year? If so, how much time did he have to spend on science each day?

 

I'm just wondering, since I've read posts indicating that Apologia doesn't require as much study time as other books, if completing both texts in one year might not be reasonable. (I realize that only a science-y kid would probably be willing to put in that extra time - not sure if that will be my ds or not!)

 

Thanks!

Rhonda

[Ms. Riding Hood]

did your ds finish both the basic and advanced Physics in one year? If so, how much time did he have to spend on science each day?

 

 

Yes, he did both in one year. He spent between 1-1/2 hours a day, not counting labs. I don't know if that's realistic for most kids or not, but he loved it and didn't count it in minutes and seconds ticking by, KWIM? :)