EPGY frustrations

[ShareBear]

Hi, I'm new. :) I have two boys ages 6 and 4. We've sort of been unschooling for years and have just recently started easing into more formal studies.

 

My oldest started EPGY math last October (individual open enrollment). He started at the very beginning and sailed through it without any issues until about grade 2.5 or so, when he started to slow down a bit.

 

In the last couple of weeks, he's gotten hopelessly stuck on one particular type of problem. I've tried explaining it every way I can think of but to no avail. If we were working out of a textbook, I would probably just move on to a different topic and come back to it later, but the problem with EPGY is that it won't let you move on to another topic if you don't get something. They just keep giving him the same type of problem over and over and over again.

 

So, since he is apparently incapable of understanding this type of problem at this point, and EPGY won't give him anything else to do until he gets this type of problem, does this mean we have to give up on EPGY for now? :( I would be really sad if that were the case, partly because we've loved EPGY so far, and partly because that would mean I would have to figure out something else to use instead, and I find curriculum selection to be a real ordeal. :)

 

(the type of problem he's getting stuck on, in case you're curious, looks like this: a+b=18, and a-b=4, so solve for a and b. He can figure them out eventually, like one problem per twenty minute session, if I give him a stack of legos to manipulate, but then they give him word problems in a similar format, and he is hopelessly lost.)

 

Any advice would be appreciated! This is a kid who "gets" things like fractions and negative numbers (neither of which he has gotten to do on EPGY yet, much to his disappointment), so he does seem to have some math ability, which I would like to encourage. :)

[regentrude]

(the type of problem he's getting stuck on, in case you're curious, looks like this: a+b=18, and a-b=4, so solve for a and b. He can figure them out eventually, like one problem per twenty minute session, if I give him a stack of legos to manipulate, but then they give him word problems in a similar format, and he is hopelessly lost.)

 

Any advice would be appreciated! This is a kid who "gets" things like fractions and negative numbers (neither of which he has gotten to do on EPGY yet, much to his disappointment), so he does seem to have some math ability, which I would like to encourage. :)

 

The standard way to solve this would be as a system of linear equations using algebra- but from what you write I would assume this is not the intent of the problem.

The other way is through trial and error. Essentially, your has to PLAY with the numbers and try out various things to come up with the correct combination.

He may feel that trying out is weird. If he does not "see" the solution, you could have him do a systematic procedure and teach him to make a table:

18 can be split into 17+1, 16+2, 15+3 and so on, (or he can begin from the middle and do 9+9, 10+8, 11+7...)

Then go to the table and look to find for which combination the difference of the two numbers happens to be 4.

 

Maybe he just needs to understand that he is not asked to solve this by following an algorithm, but by playing around and that.this.is.OK.

He may just have a psychological hangup with this.

 

Good luck

[ShareBear]

Well, the problem is that he seems really resistant to just play around with the numbers. When the numbers are smaller, like a+b=5 and a-b=3, he "sees" the solution and solves it quickly. But when the numbers are larger, and he has to think about it more, he gets lost.

 

The point of the Legos was for him to play around with the numbers as you've described, for instance taking 18 legos (of the same size) and breaking them into two stacks, adjusting the stacks until the difference is 4. With the Legos in his hands, he can do it, but it takes him forever.

 

But then he is given a word problem, like so: Sally and Tom have eleven apples together, and Sally has three more apples than Tom. And he is just completely lost. He can figure out from the first sentence that s+t=11, but he can not seem to understand at all that the second sentence correlates with the equation s-t=3.

 

I can do math but I'm not good at explaining it, so I feel like I'm not helping him much when I try. :)

[ShareBear]

Given that he's only six, I'm not terribly concerned about the fact that he can't figure this out. I would have no problem just setting this aside and working on something else for a while. But EPGY doesn't really allow you to do that. So I guess this is mostly a curriculum question. Do I keep attacking these problems until he gets them, so that we can continue with a math program that, until now, has worked really well for us? Or do I say, maybe he's not developmentally ready for this, and drop EPGY for the time being?

[LetsDoMath]

I would suggest supplementing for now, occasionally throwing in a similar type problem, to see if it has "clicked" with him yet. I have been surprised over and over how a student's brain keeps working on a problem subconsciously even when they are doing something else. I would hate to give up completely on a curriculum that seems to have worked so well for him up until now.

 

As for Sally and Tom....has he tried solving it by giving Sally her extra three apples (legos), then dividing the rest up evenly between the two? (my mind jumped to the 11 minus 3...then the 8 breaks up into 4 and 4...makes for quick mental math) Sadly, the mental math always got me in trouble in school.

 

 

-Amy :)

[catz]

Given that he's only six, I'm not terribly concerned about the fact that he can't figure this out. I would have no problem just setting this aside and working on something else for a while. But EPGY doesn't really allow you to do that. So I guess this is mostly a curriculum question. Do I keep attacking these problems until he gets them, so that we can continue with a math program that, until now, has worked really well for us? Or do I say, maybe he's not developmentally ready for this, and drop EPGY for the time being?

 

I personally think stepping away is a win-win. EPGY is a good curriculum, but I think stepping away and doing something like Singapore for a while might be good rounding out of problem solving skills. He's so young, there's really no need to force him through. Singapore also has a way of presenting early algebraic concepts through word problems that may cause something to click.

 

I totally agreed with whoever commented that kids are working on skills in the background constantly even if you aren't working on a particular concept.

[8filltheheart]

I would suggest supplementing for now, occasionally throwing in a similar type problem, to see if it has "clicked" with him yet. I have been surprised over and over how a student's brain keeps working on a problem subconsciously even when they are doing something else. I would hate to give up completely on a curriculum that seems to have worked so well for him up until now.

 

As for Sally and Tom....has he tried solving it by giving Sally her extra three apples (legos), then dividing the rest up evenly between the two? (my mind jumped to the 11 minus 3...then the 8 breaks up into 4 and 4...makes for quick mental math) Sadly, the mental math always got me in trouble in school.

 

 

-Amy :)

 

That is similar to what I was going to suggest.

 

If I were teaching this to my children, I would explain it something like this:

 

a+b=18, and a-b=4

 

I would use rods and show that all together they have 18, but A is lucky and really has 4 more than B. (and I would show them that is what a-b actually means). Then I would take 4 from the pile of 18 and and give them to A. Then I would show them that what is left is divided equally between the two of them by adding one to As pile and one to Bs pile, etc. And then we would go through the a-b and the a+b to prove that we were right.

[Whereneverever]

That is similar to what I was going to suggest.

 

If I were teaching this to my children, I would explain it something like this:

 

a+b=18, and a-b=4

 

I would use rods and show that all together they have 18, but A is lucky and really has 4 more than B. (and I would show them that is what a-b actually means). Then I would take 4 from the pile of 18 and and give them to A. Then I would show them that what is left is divided equally between the two of them by adding one to As pile and one to Bs pile, etc. And then we would go through the a-b and the a+b to prove that we were right.

:iagree:

This is exactly how we do these problems!

[rzberrymom]

I'm new too, but my 6 year old is at nearly the same point in EPGY. I haven't been happy with how quickly EPGY zooms through things--I love how well the program teaches concepts and I'm always thrilled to see how cleverly they make my DD understand concepts. But, it doesn't feel like the program goes deep enough and that it really needs supplementing.

 

So, I added Singapore 2B with her the last few weeks, which seemed pretty close to the level in the second half of EPGY's 2nd year (I think she's at 2.9 in EPGY, and Singapore 2B seems just right for her). I also checked out MEP the other day, and the problems in the second half of year 2 seem to be at about the same level as EPGY's 2nd year.

 

I hope that helps!

[ShareBear]

I would use rods and show that all together they have 18, but A is lucky and really has 4 more than B. (and I would show them that is what a-b actually means). Then I would take 4 from the pile of 18 and and give them to A. Then I would show them that what is left is divided equally between the two of them by adding one to As pile and one to Bs pile, etc. And then we would go through the a-b and the a+b to prove that we were right.

 

I tried this explanation out on him last night, and it worked!!! We solved a few problems with Legos this way, then in his excitement about getting it, he made up a few of his own problems for *me* to solve, then he said "I want to write a blog post about this!" LOL (he has a private, invite-only blog for friends and family) So he sat down at the computer and typed out a short blog post about this type of problem.

 

HOWEVER...he is still not 100% clear about this part:

...I would use rods and show that all together they have 18, but A is lucky and really has 4 more than B. (and I would show them that is what a-b actually means)...

He doesn't understand that a having four more than b can be written out as a-b=4. He looks at a-b=4 and thinks of it as taking some away from a, and doesn't get that it can also be used to *compare* a and b.

 

But anyway, thanks so much for the tip, folks, I really appreciate it. :)

[matilda]

If is not too depressing, you could also move him back by .5 grades. Then he would have some good review as a run up to that concept, and maybe it would click the second time around.

[EKS]

Perhaps you could do the problems for him to force the program to move on.

[nmoira]

Perhaps you could do the problems for him to force the program to move on.

This isn't a bad idea if he's stuck on one thing.

 

However, I'd still take some time out to reinforce the relationship between addition and subtraction and what that means in concrete terms (what do they call them now, number families?). I think this is done easiest with rods. My biggest concern would be that the child doesn't understand

 

 

 

x - y = 5

 

 

means that x is five greater than y. Supplementing with Miquon or MEP (free) or selected exercises from Singapore could help.

[ShareBear]

...My biggest concern would be that the child doesn't understand

 

 

x - y = 5

means that x is five greater than y. ...

 

I'm wondering if I might have contributed to the problem when he was younger by explaining subtraction as "taking away." I.e. take five away from ten and how many do you have left?

 

So if Sally has a dozen apples and Bob has five fewer, no one is taking any apples away from Sally, so he doesn't draw the connection to s-b=5.

 

(He does, however, get that b+5=s...and come to think of it, he also gets that s-5=b, just not that s-b=5)

 

Of course it comes to the same thing either way, and I would know that instinctively myself, but it wouldn't have occurred to me to explain it that way, back when he first started asking math questions.

 

I guess I should point out that I have zero money to spend on math other than EPGY right now, so if I'm going to supplement it has to be with free resources. Maybe on Monday I'll try some of the MEP worksheets or playing "war" with him. Thanks for the tips. :)

 

(Also, I might try moving him back .5 grades, that's not a bad idea and he would probably find it fun to do easier math for a while.)

[zaichiki]

I personally think stepping away is a win-win. EPGY is a good curriculum, but I think stepping away and doing something like Singapore for a while might be good rounding out of problem solving skills. He's so young, there's really no need to force him through. Singapore also has a way of presenting early algebraic concepts through word problems that may cause something to click.

 

I totally agreed with whoever commented that kids are working on skills in the background constantly even if you aren't working on a particular concept.

 

I agree that Singapore could be great for you and your ds. In fact, I LOVE the way Singapore Primary Math solves these types of problems. The bar diagrams (drawing and labeling) make it SO clear.

 

Good luck!