Help with deciding on Calculus path - long and rambling, but PLEASE advise :)

[Hoggirl]

Bit of background:

 

Ds homeschooled from 2nd to halfway through 8th grade. He is accelerated in math. We have used all Chalkdust materials from Pre-Algebra on. He completed through Chapter 6 of the Chalkdust Pre-Calculus text in December. He enrolled in a charter school in January where they grade accelerated him from 8th to 9th grade. He enrolled in their Pre-Calc/Trig class. I do not think he has covered any new topics, and I am not sure he will by the time the semester is over. No big deal, I suppose. All will be nice and solidified. However, I do not think they will cover the topics in chapters 7 - 9 from the Chalkdust Pre-Calc book.

 

We are trying to figure out how we should schedule ds's math for the future. Students take only four courses per semester, but cover a year's worth of material in a semester (am I making sense???). All classes are attended every day for about 85 minutes each. I believe they call it a "modified block." Ds will be a sophomore next year. He can:

 

A) take AP/AB Calc in the fall and take the AP/AB exam in the spring (thus a

semester of no math)

B) take AP/AB Calc in the spring and take the AP/AB exam in the spring (thus

no math in the fall semester)

 

With option A or B he could take BC Calculus in the spring of either his junior or senior year

 

C) take AP/AB Calc in the fall, AP/BC Calc in the spring and take the BC exam

in the spring.

 

There are things I don't like about all of these choices! For A) I don't like the semester off between completing the work and taking the exam. For B) I worry about having too many snow days (11 this year!!!) and not adequately covering all the material. For C) I worry it is too much, too soon. He can always take BC another year. He was a young 8th grader (June birthday) to begin with. So, he will be a 14-year old sophomore. Also, factoring into the process is that it appears from posted stats that there is a MUCH higher passage rate (3s, 4s, 5s) on the BC exam.

 

I also realize that students who usually do BC ONLY do BC. Or at least this is my understanding.

 

He is a strong math student, but I don't want to push him too hard. He could always do AB in the fall and, if it had been too much, decide NOT to do BC until a subsequent year. This choice would probably have the most flexibility.

 

If he does both AB and BC as a sophomore, he could take another math course (I believe it is Discrete Mathematics) his junior year and AP stats his senior year. The school is small, so these two courses are alternated each year.

 

Part of me feels like he should go ahead and do the BC before he has other AP courses/exams to contend with. But, I sure don't want to push him. Also, I don't know what happens if he takes the AB and the BC exam with regard to the AB subscore on the BC exam??

 

WWYD???? And other options/ideas are welcome!

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Hoggirl

[coffeegal]

 

A) take AP/AB Calc in the fall and take the AP/AB exam in the spring (thus a

semester of no math)

B) take AP/AB Calc in the spring and take the AP/AB exam in the spring (thus

no math in the fall semester)

 

With option A or B he could take BC Calculus in the spring of either his junior or senior year

 

C) take AP/AB Calc in the fall, AP/BC Calc in the spring and take the BC exam

in the spring.

 

 

He is a strong math student, but I don't want to push him too hard. He could always do AB in the fall and, if it had been to much, decide NOT to do BC until a subsequent year. This choice would probably have the most flexibility.

 

If he does both AB and BC as a sophomore, he could take another math course (I believe it is Discrete Mathematics) his junior year and AP stats his senior year. The school is small, so these two courses are alternated each year.

 

 

WWYD???? And other options/ideas are welcome!

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Does your son have an opinion on which he'd prefer to do? If he's willing and up for it, I'd recommend C. Is it possible to wait to register for the AP until spring? If he's doing well with the classes and does well on the practice exams go ahead and have him take the AP test. Otherwise, could he continue to practice calculus at home/ afterschool calculus his junior year and take the BC test at that time?

[Hoggirl]

Does your son have an opinion on which he'd prefer to do? If he's willing and up for it, I'd recommend C. Is it possible to wait to register for the AP until spring? If he's doing well with the classes and does well on the practice exams go ahead and have him take the AP test. Otherwise, could he continue to practice calculus at home/ afterschool calculus his junior year and take the BC test at that time?

 

I have no idea when they register to take the actual AP exam??? They were discussing letting the students take AB in the fall then BC in the spring and then letting them decide which of the two exams they would rather take.

 

There is just more *time* in the fall. Even if we have NO snow days, and even though our semesters are pretty evenly balanced, there are just more days in the entire fall semester than there are in the spring semester prior to when the exams are given.

 

I want him to have success if possible.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Hoggirl

[Caroline]

I have no idea when they register to take the actual AP exam??? They were discussing letting the students take AB in the fall then BC in the spring and then letting them decide which of the two exams they would rather take.

 

There is just more *time* in the fall. Even if we have NO snow days, and even though our semesters are pretty evenly balanced, there are just more days in the entire fall semester than there are in the spring semester prior to when the exams are given.

 

I think he is a bit intimidated about taking BC.

 

I want him to have success if possible.

 

The school for which I work orders AP Exams in March.

 

The reason the pass rate on the BC exam is higher is because only the top students take the BC exam. Many high schools shuffle kids into AB that really could use another year of precalculus. Many schools have policies that if you take the class you will take the test. It is a tough exam, but only tough students take it.

 

My son will be taking AP Calculus BC this coming school year. He has not taken AP Calculus AB. The school does this path with their top students, and the pass rate on the BC exam is very high. His senior year he will be taking multivariable calculus dual enrolled at Georgia Tech.

[Laura in CA]

Does your son have an opinion on which he'd prefer to do? If he's willing and up for it, I'd recommend C.

 

Hi, Cynthia! I think we've talked about this stuff before ... it's really hard, isn't it, to decide what to do. And let me just say, I dislike block scheduling intensely! especially for math and foreign languages. :glare: An entire semester + summer without math is a disaster for students who struggle with math, and a gross disservice to stronger students!

 

But it may just work out fine for calculus -- it's a fast pace, but doable, to do AB and BC in two consecutive semesters.

 

Anyway, here's what we did (and IIRC our sons seem to be quite similar!) ... I had signed up my ds13 for PA Homeschoolers' Calc AB class for this year, and was planning to have him take the BC class next year (and because I asked, PA H/S formalized a half-year BC class for kids in his situation -- i.e., kids who'd taken AB the previous year). So ... a few weeks into the year, my son realized that he'd be spending the better part of two years on this calculus stuff, before getting to the "good stuff" -- including AoPS books on Intermediate Probability, etc. He lobbied for an "upgrade" to BC, which PA H/S gave him, he worked hard for a few weeks to catch up, and he has never looked back. He takes the AP Calc BC exam this Wednesday, and if anything he is overprepared. I am SO GLAD I listened to him and let him try the BC.

 

I figured we had nothing to lose by trying the BC class -- if he didn't feel ready by the time they started doing practice AP tests in March, he could just take the AB exam, or even wait until the following year, being young (as your son is). (It's a different ball game if the kid is a senior ...) Also, being in CA and taking an online class, we didn't have to worry about snow days :001_smile: So you will have to factor that in ...

 

Anyway, hope this helps, and best wishes to you and your son.

 

~Laura

Edited May 2, 2011 by Laura in CA

[Hoggirl]

We have discussed this before, but it was in the context of our continuing to homeschool, and now that has changed.

 

How much time per day does has your ds spent on his BC Calculus?

[Joan in GE]

I haven't seen this mentioned - which is that the BC test gives a breakdown of the AB test as well. So if he doesn't do well on the BC part, he'll still get the AB grade and would have continued his math study for both semesters...

 

Joan

[Teachin'Mine]

I haven't seen this mentioned - which is that the BC test gives a breakdown of the AB test as well. So if he doesn't do well on the BC part, he'll still get the AB grade and would have continued his math study for both semesters...

 

Joan

 

So there's nothing to lose in taking the BC test???

[Caroline]

So there's nothing to lose in taking the BC test???

 

Some colleges do not recognize the AB subscore as valid and won't take it. I don't know which ones, but some do.

[Joan in GE]

Some colleges do not recognize the AB subscore as valid and won't take it. I don't know which ones, but some do.

 

Good to know all the exceptions then!

 

On the CB document it says "recommended" to treat it the same as the AB exam score. So I guess they are not obliged.

 

I wonder if it depends on your major, or just the school...

 

Joan

[8filltheheart]

I don't know if this will help you or not in deciding if he is prepared, but here is the list of pre-reqs we were given by the BC PAH teacher. My ds will also be taking BC young. I wouldn't have enrolled him in BC if I hadn't thought he was solid in everything listed (with the exception of the intro to cal topics which the teacher said were not necessary b/c they will be reviewed)

 

Required Pre-Calculus Course Outline for AP Calculus BC

 

Linear Relations and Functions:

Functions, linear functions and inequalities, composition of functions, inverse functions

 

The Nature of Graphs:

Symmetry of graphs, shifting, reflecting, and stretching graphs, families of graphs, graphs of inverses, tangents to a curve, distance and slope, parallel and perpendicular lines

 

Polynomial and Rational Functions:

Quadratic functions, polynomial functions of higher degree, real zeros of polynomial functions, complex numbers, rational functions and asymptotes, graphs of rational functions, partial fractions

 

Exponential and Logarithmic Functions:

Rational exponents, exponential functions, the number e, compound interest, logarithmic functions, common logarithms, natural logarithms

 

Trigonometric Functions:

Degree and radian measure, trigonometric functions: the unit circle, right triangle trigonometry, trigonometric functions of any angle, applications and models, right triangle problems, Law of Sines, Law of Cosines

 

Graphs and Inverses of the Trigonometric Functions:

Amplitude, period, frequency, phase shift, graphing trig functions, graphing inverse trigonometric functions, principal values of trig functions, simple harmonic motion

 

Trigonometric Identities and Equations:

Pythagorean identities, sum and difference identities, double-angle and half- angle identities, verifying trig identities, solving trigonometric equations, Normal form of a Linear equation, distance from a point to a line, vectors in the plane

 

Systems of Equations and Inequalities:

Solving systems of equations, matrices, determinants and multiplicative inverses of matrices, solving systems of inequalities, Linear Programming, operations with matrices

 

Sequences, Series and Probability:

Sequences and series, arithmetic sequences and partial sums, the binomial theorem, probability

 

Polar Coordinates and Complex Numbers:

Graphing polar equations, polar vs. rectangular coordinates, polar form of a linear equation, simplifying complex numbers, polar form of complex numbers, powers and roots of complex numbers

 

Introduction to Calculus:

Introduction to limits, techniques for evaluating limits, tangent line problem, introduction to derivatives, limits at infinity and limits of sequences, the area problem, introduction to integrals

[flyingiguana]

Take AB in the fall. Even if he doesn't feel ready to do BC in the spring, he will have all spring to review for the test. If he really does spend the time reviewing, he'll do better than going into the test after just finishing the class. Some of that stuff needs time to settle in the brain.

 

I also wonder if there might be good reasons to take the AB test in the first year, even if one plans to take the BC test later. With only the AB material to focus on, a student might do better. I know all the AB stuff is supposed to be the foundation for BC, but if one blasts through it too fast, it just gets mixed up. Another advantage of taking time with the AB material is that it gives the student time to review basic things that weren't as well-learned as it might have appeared at first.

 

Although my kids plowed through elementary math, and even went quite fast through high school math, they slowed down with calculus. We went at the pace they needed to go rather than the pace they had set before. Also, as kids get older, they tend to have other activities that distract them from the math. The class work in non-math classes in high school starts to get a bit more time consuming too.

 

Colleges are not obliged to give credit for any AP score. They generally base it on how students in the past have done in the later courses.

 

When my daughter did Calc 3 in one semester at college, she was spending about 3-4 hours per day on homework. That may have been a more rigorous class than average, but that might give you some idea of the time involved in doing AB or BC calc in one semester.

Edited May 2, 2011 by flyingiguana

[Laura in CA]

How much time per day does has your ds spent on his BC Calculus?

 

It wasn't anywhere near the official estimate Mrs Gilleran gives on the website (12-13 hrs/wk), but then my son's strength is math and he would do it first thing in the morning. I would say most days he had read Mrs G's comments and worked the problems in little over an hour; adding 10 minutes for checking his answers, and another 10-15 to watch a Thinkwell video (a great supplement, and a different way to learn the material than just reading text), makes about 1.5 hrs/day.

 

About one day a month he would announce after about 20 minutes: "Done!" (to my consternation, haha, but the assignments do vary in length and difficulty). Maybe two days a month he would still be laboring over his calculus after more than 2 hours ... but this was infrequent. For a student less enthusiastic about math, Mrs G's estimate would probably be quite accurate.

 

~Laura

Edited May 2, 2011 by Laura in CA

[In The Great White North]

Some colleges do not recognize the AB subscore as valid and won't take it. I don't know which ones, but some do.

 

I was under the impression that most schools will not allow you to skip any math if you only take the AB, because it doesn't replace a whole year. Same for Physics A or B.

 

Are there any other options besides rushing through calculus? Semesters with no math is a bad idea.

 

Calculus AB and BC is frequently done in one year, so doing AB in the fall and BC in the spring with 85 minute classes would get more math time than normal.

 

What math will the school put him in next year?

[Hoggirl]

I was under the impression that most schools will not allow you to skip any math if you only take the AB, because it doesn't replace a whole year. Same for Physics A or B.

 

Are there any other options besides rushing through calculus? Semesters with no math is a bad idea.

 

Calculus AB and BC is frequently done in one year, so doing AB in the fall and BC in the spring with 85 minute classes would get more math time than normal.

 

What math will the school put him in next year?

 

I am not sure what you mean by "skipping any math." He has had all math leading up to Calculus.

 

The only other option besides Calculus in one form or another would be AP stats in the spring semester. I suppose he could do AP AB Calculus in the fall and AP stats in the spring. I had not thought of that.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Cynthia,

 

I've followed your son's success with math over the years, and I'd vote for the Calculus AB/BC combination for tenth grade. Both of my kids did that, and frankly, it wasn't their most difficult math year by any means. Calculus has a few concepts and a ton of calculations. I'd only hold him back if you have any concerns about his accuracy doing long, multi-step problems.

 

Get him a good study guide to work through alongside his class (we like Barrons for Calc AP) and consider using this book for FRQ practice. Yes, I know that the College Board has many sample FRQs on their website for free, but this book is worth its weight in gold. Instead of sample *student* solutions, each FRQ comes with an *ideal* solution written up the way CB wants to see it. And the problem list is categorized in the front of the book, which is handy if you're looking for, say, a related rates FRQ to practice. Finally, I'd suggest purchasing a released exam or two from the College Board to practice next April before the exam. The AB and BC exams are in the same booklets, so it wouldn't hurt to purchase in advance in case he changes his mind about the BC part.

 

I hate block scheduling for math in general, but for calculus, it's not bad at all to combine AB & BC material into one year. Good luck to him whatever he decides!

[Hoggirl]

I truly think he can do AB and BC and have success, and I appreciate hearing from those who have already done so...especially with younger children.

 

The list of pre-reqs is particularly helpful as is the link the book you mentioned Kathy.

 

All very helpful as always. Many thanks to all!

[Joan in GE]

I was under the impression that most schools will not allow you to skip any math if you only take the AB, because it doesn't replace a whole year.

 

I think she was referring to having just the grade from the AB exam on the transcript, if your ds wanted to skip Calculus in college. But if he is then going to do other math in high school or CC, this probably is not relevant for you.

 

For the school where our ds is applying, the Calc AB is sufficient on the transcript to show competence to a certain level.

 

Joan

[flyingiguana]

I was under the impression that most schools will not allow you to skip any math if you only take the AB, because it doesn't replace a whole year. Same for Physics A or B.

 

Calc AB replaces one college semester (it's Calc I). BC replaces the 2nd semester, but I doubt one can get credit for Calc II with a high score on the BC portion if the AB portion is not also a passing grade.

 

I'm under the impression that Physics B is supposed to be a nonmajors course that would replace a one semester algebra based college course. So it won't replace anything in the physics major. It might give credit at some colleges (perhaps as a nonmajors course?), but we haven't seen that.

 

The C test is calculus based. There are two sub tests. You have to take both (I think). One test is the mechanics portion and the other is the electromagnetics portion. These would generally replace the 2 semesters of a freshman physics course. The colleges around us only give credit for a 5. The way it generally works is that you get credit for the first semester (mechanics) if you scored well on the mechanics portion. You get credit for both semesters if you scored well on both. If you only scored well on the EM portion, you're out of luck. You have to take the full year over. But this might be different at other colleges.

 

There is no A test. I think the college board reserves that for a nonmajors course, and they claim their B course is for biology majors and the like who are required to take physics.

[Joan in GE]

Calc AB replaces one college semester (it's Calc I). BC replaces the 2nd semester, but I doubt one can get credit for Calc II with a high score on the BC portion if the AB portion is not also a passing grade.

 

I'm under the impression that Physics B is supposed to be a nonmajors course that would replace a one semester algebra based college course. So it won't replace anything in the physics major. It might give credit at some colleges (perhaps as a nonmajors course?), but we haven't seen that.

 

The C test is calculus based. There are two sub tests. You have to take both (I think). One test is the mechanics portion and the other is the electromagnetics portion. These would generally replace the 2 semesters of a freshman physics course. The colleges around us only give credit for a 5. The way it generally works is that you get credit for the first semester (mechanics) if you scored well on the mechanics portion. You get credit for both semesters if you scored well on both. If you only scored well on the EM portion, you're out of luck. You have to take the full year over. But this might be different at other colleges.

 

There is no A test. I think the college board reserves that for a nonmajors course, and they claim their B course is for biology majors and the like who are required to take physics.

 

That's all quite interesting.

 

To me it is curious that the BC gets equal weight with the AB, because it seems like there is so much less content...eg in some of the syllabi I studied, it seemed like they spent far fewer weeks on the BC material than on the AB material. (One set of syllabi was from the same teacher, so it was very easy to compare what was extra). Or was this a misanalysis on my part?

 

Joan

[In The Great White North]

I am not sure what you mean by "skipping any math." He has had all math leading up to Calculu

 

I think she was referring to having just the grade from the AB exam on the transcript, if your ds wanted to skip Calculus in college.

 

Right

[In The Great White North]

I'm under the impression that Physics B is supposed to be a nonmajors course that would replace a one semester algebra based college course. So it won't replace anything in the physics major. It might give credit at some colleges (perhaps as a nonmajors course?), but we haven't seen that.

 

The C test is calculus based. There are two sub tests. You have to take both (I think). One test is the mechanics portion and the other is the electromagnetics portion. These would generally replace the 2 semesters of a freshman physics course. The colleges around us only give credit for a 5. The way it generally works is that you get credit for the first semester (mechanics) if you scored well on the mechanics portion. You get credit for both semesters if you scored well on both. If you only scored well on the EM portion, you're out of luck. You have to take the full year over. But this might be different at other colleges.

 

 

I've only seen the 5 on the Physics C test get you any credit.

[Joan in GE]

This discussion helped me remember this CB page where you can find the name of the school and their policy about credit or otherwise for AP exams.

 

AP Credit Policy Information

 

Joan

 

ETA - out of curiosity I looked at 3 dif schools, Harvard, U of Pennsylvania, and U of Oregon and they're all different, with U O even giving credit for Calc AB and physics B, so it pays to check and even better to have an idea of where you would apply.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Joan in Geneva