Please suggest math program...PLEASE

[caitlinsmom]

Dd8 has been using Horizons since K. I have followed nearly everything to the letter in the books. She is a difficult child and math is always a chore, lasting hours sometimes. However I have seen what I thought was improvement, until the other night. Dh walked by and she asked what 9+6 is. The night quickly spiraled after that.

 

Basically she hasn't memorized ANY math facts, she doesn't understand the clock, especially 15 min incriments, and she can barely skip count. I knew the skip counting was stumping her because she cant hear the patterns that help with memorizing. That night I threw my hands up and decided to send her to PS where she can at least get special help.

 

But now that I have cooled off I don't want to do this. I have contacted the local university to schedule a private tutor but obviously Horizons hasnt been working for her.

 

I have looked at MUS since the unconventional approach seems interesting but I think she would revolt at the thought of doing one topic for an entire year. I have Saxon already purchased for this coming year (3rd grade) but she will not be able to use it until the above things are tackled. What math would be best?

 

Here are her "issues":

*She has ADHD both the hyper and the attention sides.

*She gets overly frustrated if she doesn't get it right the first time, although she gets mad if you explain it again.

*She does not "get" math, it makes her insane to try and wrap her head around it (I am the same way!).

*She can memorize a poem or movie in one sitting but can.not.memorize.math.

*She already has herself convinced that she can't do it so she in turn wont do it.

*Manipulatives are big distractors yet she needs something visual but not to bright and interesting......it goes on and on.

 

Please help me. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

[PentecostalMom]

Teaching Textbooks?

[texasmama]

:grouphug: Do you think she is not capable of focusing enough to retain the concepts due to her ADHD? Do you suspect other learning disabilities? (ADHD is considered an LD by some.) If her neurological functioning is getting in the way of her ability to learn and retain concepts, then it will be difficult to find a math program which works. All the best as you walk this road.:grouphug:

[jen3kids]

JUMP Math

 

http://www.jumpmath.org They take math very slowly and break it down into pieces.

 

 

They have homeschooling books at amazon.com, but I order from the JUMP website.

[Heather in VA]

There is no way Horizons would work with my ADHD kid. I haven't used MUS but I've heard good things about it for kids who struggle. I've considered it for my youngest. Singapore has worked well for us. It's visual without manipulatives. My daughter tends to hit a wall with a concept and then we take a break from Singapore and use manipulatives for a while then go back.

 

Heather

[Ray]

Link at thread below goes to an article whose main body discusses research in beginning math learning, and finishes with some practical ideas-

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265237

[texasmama]

Link at thread below goes to an article whose main body discusses research in beginning math learning, and finishes with some practical ideas-

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265237

 

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.:001_smile:

[Spy Car]

I'd she "can't memorize" why teach math via "memorization?

 

Why not teach her with a method that involves math strategies and re-grouping skills?

 

For example most of the whole-parts math programs would teach a child to solve a problem like 9+6 by re-grouping to make a 10.

 

9+6=10+5

 

10+5=15

 

Simple.

 

Give a child problem solving skill and she won't have to rely on "memorization" and her math skills will be far stronger in the long run.

 

Bill

[tuzor]

Well Saxon would be good because there is a lot of repitition and she may need that. Did you have her take the Saxon placement test. If so and she placed in 3 then use 3 if not you should give her the placement exam and she where she falls. Next perhaps you could try a private math tutor instead of a public school.

[Heather in VA]

I'd she "can't memorize" why teach math via "memorization?

 

Why not teach her with a method that involves math strategies and re-grouping skills?

 

For example most of the whole-parts math programs would teach a child to solve a problem like 9+6 by re-grouping to make a 10.

 

9+6=10+5

 

10+5=15

 

Simple.

 

Give a child problem solving skill and she won't have to rely on "memorization" and her math skills will be far stronger in the long run.

 

Bill

 

These types of strategies can be very difficult for some kids with learning disabilities. So while it is definitely a good way to teach, some kids will at some point need to memorize facts along with learning the strategies.

 

Heather

[Ray]

Interesting article. Thanks for sharing.:001_smile:

 

My pleasure. Here are more cognitive research articles from the same guy.

 

http://www.danielwillingham.com/articles.html

 

Here is an online course that seems promising, but no "been there done that" t-shirt, FWIW.

 

http://www.reasoningmind.org/index.php?mv=8&elm=3&tab_id=0

Edited April 24, 2011 by Ray

[allyall]

I don't have a curricula suggestion but some other supplementary ideas that might help address some of your concerns.

 

Perhaps find some games that involve practicing arithmetic skills but aren't too overtly about math. Or even are, but are fun to play. Like Yahtzee or Scrabble or any game involving money (Life, Monopoly, Payday, etc.)

 

Then some music about math. Involving the poetry memorization skill into math work. For multiplication facts you get Schoolhouse Rock or Multiplication vacation (googol power). An amazon search turns up several about addition facts as well.

 

Perhaps include reading "The Math Curse", "The Number Devil" and the like as well. "One Grain of Rice", "The Man who counted", etc.

 

Though she has a numbers weakness and possibly some LD with numbers, perhaps she is more spatially minded - like better at shapes and spatial awareness. Are there any parts of math class she HAS enjoyed? Measuring units, mazes, shapes?

[caitlinsmom]

I'd she "can't memorize" why teach math via "memorization?

 

Why not teach her with a method that involves math strategies and re-grouping skills?

 

For example most of the whole-parts math programs would teach a child to solve a problem like 9+6 by re-grouping to make a 10.

 

9+6=10+5

 

10+5=15

 

Simple.

 

Give a child problem solving skill and she won't have to rely on "memorization" and her math skills will be far stronger in the long run.

 

Bill

 

I have always presented the facts the way the text/worksheet instructs and then I also use the manipulatives to demonstrate the above concept. We have worked both ways, memorization for speed, stratagies for long term understanding. It doesn't stick, at least not how I have presented it.

[caitlinsmom]

Though she has a numbers weakness and possibly some LD with numbers, perhaps she is more spatially minded - like better at shapes and spatial awareness. Are there any parts of math class she HAS enjoyed? Measuring units, mazes, shapes?

 

She has caught onto fractions quickly because she likes to cook. She is good with shapes, mazes and patterns (unless it is with numbers like skip counting).

[caitlinsmom]

:grouphug: Do you think she is not capable of focusing enough to retain the concepts due to her ADHD? Do you suspect other learning disabilities? (ADHD is considered an LD by some.) If her neurological functioning is getting in the way of her ability to learn and retain concepts, then it will be difficult to find a math program which works. All the best as you walk this road.:grouphug:

 

YES! Last fall she was being evaluated for dyslexia. We moved and were no longer able to access that testing center. While looking for another testing center I noticed that so many of the little problems were disappearing. Since the fall her reading has jumped 2 grade levels, but spelling and math are horrible. I have contacted a new company and waiting for their call.

[texasmama]

YES! Last fall she was being evaluated for dyslexia. We moved and were no longer able to access that testing center. While looking for another testing center I noticed that so many of the little problems were disappearing. Since the fall her reading has jumped 2 grade levels, but spelling and math are horrible. I have contacted a new company and waiting for their call.

 

I think you are on the right road with testing. That should rule in/out issues and help you to make a plan to address her weaknesses while utilizing her strengths. I have a child with an LD, and testing really helped me to help him because I was able to understand exactly what parts of his brain were not functioning up to par...and what parts were. It is very difficult to "treat" what has not been diagnosed. Information is power.

[caitlinsmom]

Link at thread below goes to an article whose main body discusses research in beginning math learning, and finishes with some practical ideas-

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265237

 

Fantastic! Thank you for sharing this. It has given me much to think about.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Hugs!:grouphug: I've done the freak out. I might let it be for awhile and play games. At least until testing is over. There are tons out there. Right start has some excellent ones. I'd also suggest their abacus as you can manipulate it but it doesn't have a thousand bitty pieces.

Edited April 25, 2011 by joyofsix

[allyall]

She has caught onto fractions quickly because she likes to cook. She is good with shapes, mazes and patterns (unless it is with numbers like skip counting).

 

It sounds like what I was thinking that she will be more of a geometry person than an algebra person. Which isn't to say she can't do well at algebra but that she has a natural affinity for geometry and will enjoy it more. So we need to use these strengths in helping her overcome her weaknesses.

 

Ideas - mazes that you can find the right path by following the skip counting numbers correctly. Connect the dots that involve skip counting (there are some simple ones like this in beginning miquon books).

 

Have you used a number line in teaching "hops" for skip counting? That is something done in the miquon books that is a simple visual that might help her see the pattern?

 

I really think she'd enjoy reading the Number devil as an introduction to triangular numbers, pascal's triangles and some of the numbers that can be related to shapes. While these aren't directly related to skip counting or addition facts, it might help bring about a more positive attitude towards mathematics overall and find some topics she's curious about.

[kolamum]

Have you considered ditching curriculum all together for math and flying free? Playing games to teach concepts, especially ones that don't require being super still, might be more beneficial for her.

 

Does she enjoy playing games? There are a lot of great math game books out there like Family Math, Box Cars & One Eyed Jacks {various books from them involving cards, dice, or other things}, and scholastic also has many.. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

I found that my child who didn't "get" math didn't understand the concepts until he physically used them. Once he used them he completely "got" it and it built his confidence so he's no longer worried about testing theories. That said the perfectionism in him still rears it's head if he gets a problem wrong.. ;)

[Spy Car]

The Right Start math game "Go to the Dump" is a classic for learning (and practicing) pairs that make 10, and helps build the foundation for re-grouping to make 10s strategy.

 

There is a YouTube video explaining the rules and one could substitute playing cards or similar if you don't have RS cards.

 

 

Bill

[kchara]

I wouldn't dismiss MUS yet. It's worked miracles with my DD who is ADD, and my DS who is ADHD. They're only in Beta now, but before Alpha, they had none of their math facts down. We do add a LOT of drill in, and a lot of things like drill songs, the skip counting songs, things like that. Music works for them, but you might just have to figure out what is going to work for your DD.

 

MUS really isn't one subject all year long, although they do spend a lot longer on a particular subject than most others do. But, you go completely at your child's pace, so what might take one family a year, might only take another a couple of months, and might take a third a semester or even two years. It depends on the child, and how long it takes them to master a concept.

 

Alpha covered addition and subtraction, along with skip counting and had a bit of clock work as a supplement (not a whole lot, you'd still need to work on time). Beta so far has double digit addition and regrouping, introducing the decimal system, money up to dollars, and adding money. Today, my kids started on adding columns of numbers (up to hundreds). So, it's not like you're working on just one concept all year. ;)

[Guest angelajean65]

Hello,

I am the HS mom of a 12 yo son with many LD issues. He loves Teaching Textbooks. I love TT. We have used Saxon, MUS and a few others. Those are good, but for my situation TT was much better. They have a placement test online for free and are very helpful if you need to call them.

HTH,

Angie Wortman

[Mandy in TN]

She is a difficult child and math is always a chore, lasting hours sometimes.

 

Please help me. Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Math should be fun and progress at such a pace that a child never feels overwhelmed. Don't sit down and bang 'em over the head with it for a period of time that is longer than their attention span, but spend enough time throughout the day that they move forward feeling successful.

 

My best advice would be to make sure that you break up her math work into manageable bites.

 

Do computation- a sheet of drill work or flashcards or number games together (10min). Then, do some spelling.

Instruction- some problems together on a white board while you discuss the day's lesson (15min). Then, do some grammar.

Independent work- Have her do the lesson problems (20 min). If it drags on, try doing them with her on a white board. If it just isn't happening, put it up and finish the next day. The next day start fresh with computation, review the instruction, and then pick up the lesson where you left off. Do math year round so that it doesn't matter if it takes multiple days to finsh a lesson. Then, do some reading.

 

Interact one-on-one with her. Instead of teaching from the book, learn the material and teach it yourself without the book. The particular text isn't as important as your ability to share the arithmetic with enthusiasm. (However, as the mother of a grown AD/ dyslexic son, for this type of child I would suggest a mastery program like MUS or a basal program like BJUP over programs like Horizons or Saxon.)

 

Elementary school arithmetic should not be a rabbit race to complete the text or to reach high school maths, but instead should meet children where they are- a turtle race to cover the material diligently and thoroughly.

 

HTH-

Mandy

Edited May 3, 2011 by Mandy in TN

[Guest SkaterMom]

You might take a look through Dianne Craft's website/articles. She deals with both attention and learning issues.

 

http://www.diannecraft.com/

 

For math, my dd11 and I like Math Mammoth better than we did Horizons. DH and I are certain DD is retaining much more info.

[Lori D.]

*She has ADHD both the hyper and the attention sides.

*She gets overly frustrated if she doesn't get it right the first time, although she gets mad if you explain it again.

*She does not "get" math, it makes her insane to try and wrap her head around it (I am the same way!).

*She can memorize a poem or movie in one sitting but can.not.memorize.math.

*She already has herself convinced that she can't do it so she in turn wont do it.

*Manipulatives are big distractors yet she needs something visual but not to bright and interesting......it goes on and on.

 

 

 

First, please don't give up! This may be a matter of patience and needing to wait on your DD's unique brain maturity timetable. Many students do not develop the math portions of the brain until they are older -- our DS did NOT even begin to "click" with math until after age 10yo. Just to encourage you, while it has been a long road, once things did "click" in 5th grade (at which point he was 2 grades below in math), he moved along through the MUS levels at a slow but steady rate, and by 9th grade, he actually was ready for Algebra!

 

Your DD really NEEDS you and DH's patience and willingness to do some research, and to do some trial-and-error to find what will work for HER. :grouphug:

 

 

Your DD sounds very like our younger DS in attitude, but also as a strongly visual-spatial learner (VSL) -- most people who deal with dyslexia, Aspberger's, autism, ADD, and ADHD are VSL students. (Some people think of this as "right brain" learners.) Traits tend to be: intake information best visually and/or concretely; process information best randomly (sequential order not important to them) and globally (whole-to-parts) -- they tend to "intuitively" see patterns and answers, and THEN begin to see the smaller parts that make up the pattern or answer. They tend to be very good 3-D thinkers, and also good with puzzles and geometry.

 

Our DS is mildly ("stealth") dyslexic, struggles with writing and spelling (a very sequential activity), is very intuitive (sees patterns and "the big picture" very quickly), is very good in 3-D thinking and with puzzles, Legos, etc.

 

 

re: math facts

Our DS could NOT memorize math facts. He was close to 12yo before he finally had *some* math facts memorized. The Schoolhouse Rock: Math videos helped a lot; also the Skip Count Kid songs. (An adult friend of mine who is very bright NEVER could memorize math facts; she finally memorized skip counting songs and mentally runs through the song to get to the fact she needs.)

 

Check out the "Times Tales" book -- the concept behind it is that a picture with very unusual visual elements in it, coupled with an odd story captures the student's eye and memory, and then stores the image (with the math fact embedded in it) straight into the right-brain-hemisphere (long-term memory storage).

 

We also found triangle flashcards to be helpful -- these connect 3 numbers together as the points of a triangle, making a "fact family" that the student can visually see -- and each "fact family" covers FOUR math facts, reducing "memorization" of facts by 75%!!! For example: the fact family of 3, 4, 7 allows you to see the math facts of 3+4=7; 4+3=7; 7-4=3; 7-3=4. NOTE: I would NOT try these until your DD was over 10yo.

 

 

I highly recommend that you re-think trying out Saxon math. It is a very abstract (NON visual, NON concrete) math program. It also is a spiral-approach rather than mastery; that is deadly to a highly VSL student -- in Saxon, a math topic is broken into tiny "bites", and spread out over a number of lessons, often with several days of not seeing the topic before it is re-introduced again. A VSL student does NOT retain bits of instruction via this parts-to-whole approach.

 

 

At this point, my recommendation for math would be to try Miquon. It is a discovery-approach, which allows a VSL student to "see" the pattern and then after "get" the parts that make up the pattern. Miquon uses only one manipulative, so it stays simple, yet has just enough visual/hands-on to help the visual/concrete learner. Miquon allows you to pursue a topic until your student "hits a wall (by following the topic from workbook to workbook), and then you can bounce back to the earlier workbook and the next math topic, meanwhile allowing the troublesome math topic to "simmer" in the back of the brain; often taking a break for several weeks or months can allow the brain to mature into being able to "get" the troublesome topic the next time without as much effort. (Example: long division for our DS -- introduced it at the end of 3rd grade, and three times during 4th grade; no go -- not ready; at the start of 5th grade: DING! the light went on, and it was not a problem after that.)

 

After Miquon, which will take you up through third and some fourth grade math topics, MUS can also be a good visual/concrete program for a struggling math learner. I'd suggest watching the DVD lessons together with your student.

 

 

A general suggestion: you might want to check out Dianne Craft's website. She has some very helpful, specific, practical exercises and nutritional supplement suggestions for students who struggle with many of the things you listed in your post.

 

 

BEST of luck not only with math, but in your homeschooling journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Lori D.

[Evergreen Academy]

You've received very good suggestions to check out your dd's learning style/issues, and that could help greatly. My ds7 was having very similar struggles, and actually told me, "Mom, it's like there's a light on in my brain, and when I try to do math, the light just goes out." Poor kid!

 

Testing by a neuropsychologist showed that he struggles with nonverbal reasoning, which includes the sort of abstract thinking needed for math. Because we also learned that visual learning is a strength of his, we decided to try MUS. Finally, starting with Alpha and moving as quickly as we need to, the light is going on for him! Math is taking 20 minutes or so per day rather than the hour it took last semester. Yes, he was doing harder work then, but he was getting routine addition problems wrong. Now the work is simpler and incremental, and he is getting it mostly right. I have much more confidence with him moving forward with this.

 

You mentioned your daughter getting bored with MUS; for what it's worth, ds loves it. There is a different short video we watch before each lesson, and each lesson has a slightly different topic. It appeals to his learning style and sensibilities.

 

Good luck, I know you will find what works best for your dd!

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

Sorry for the late suggestion but please check out Professor B to see if it sounds like something that might help your daughter. It's made a night and day difference around here, not that it means it will for you too but the chance made it worth mentioning. :)