spelling problems-ohelizabeth or others

[Strawberry Queen]

Hello there,

 

I need some help figuring out my younger daughter. She is 8 and 4 months and really struggles with spelling. She reads long chapter books with ease and comprehension. She absolutely loves to read. She can dictate beautiful sentences, and her handwriting is progressing( a bit messy still but she can copy a paragraph without crying:)

 

It seems that she can't figure out the sound symbol relationship. When she misspells (?) she substitutes in a letter that often makes that sound but it's just not a common usage. Like today she misspelled ten. She wrote it 'thn' even though she had verbally said 30 seconds before that ten had the letters 't,n,e'.

 

She also has a hard time remembering letter/number formation. Today in math she forgot how to form a 4. There were 4's on the page, she just couldn't remember how to do it. She is having the worst time remembering her multiplication tables and we've been working on them from different angles for the last 5 months.

 

I don't know if it's related but she also doesn't know right from left and is still inconsistent with lower case 'b,d,g,p,j,e,s,z,c,f,q,'.

 

What I would like help with is knowing is this a maturational issue and do I just keep going and wait for her to grow up. Or, do I need to start addressing these issues.

 

I've been using spelling wisdom lately and it seems to be okay but it takes her a long time to memorize the words. She's on the 10th sentence and we've been using it since November(17 weeks of school). Spelling wisdom uses copywork and memorizing to learn the words. I have her chant the words, we break them down into other small words, she traces the words in cornmeal, we put the words up in different places so she can practice them in the bathroom etc.

 

My dd is getting discouraged. She knows that it's hard and she becomes frustrated when she can't spell the simplest words-'like' is spelled 'lick'.

 

Do I keep going with what I'm doing and pray that it comes right in the end with hard work, patience and perseverance? Do I switch programs and if so to which one? Do I go back to straight copywork and wait for her to mature? Do I try to get an educational psychologist to diagnose a problem? In short I need some help, some direction to pursue and I guess some reassurance.:confused:

 

Thanks for reading this lengthy post and for your advice. I appreciate it sooo much.:)

[Shay]

Start addressing the issues. First, how wonderful that she reads this well :)! But, her spelling (from what you've said) is deficient. At a conference on dyslexia that I attended (by Susan Barton), she mentioned that people with dyslexia can read, but their spelling is poor. The problems you've listed suggest a directionality problem of sorts.

 

You'll get lots of advice and opinions, but if this was my child, I'd buy and start using All About Spelling to teach her spelling rules.Copywork and chanting/memorizing are obviously not getting the job done. I'd see how that goes to improve spelling before I'd go for a full neuropsych eval.

 

Again,I would not wait for her to mature more because she is now in 3rd grade. I would get AAS and work through that and see if you get results. If that doesn't start showing improvement in her spellling, I'd then go for an evaluation.

[rafiki]

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[PeterPan]

Well I think you already answered your own questions. Yes, it's time to be concerned. Yes, she's using her strong memory to cover for her problems. Waiting doesn't solve them. And yes she's probably going to hit a wall where she can't cover any more. No, you're not imagining things.

 

I'd get her eyes checked first. http://www.covd.org Then see where you're at. You can't fix everything at once, and eyes are probably part of the mix. If they aren't, then you've eliminated them. But I'd definitely check them first. Much less expensive than the neuropsych eval. (Our dev. optometrist eval was $250, but a neuropsych around here is several grand.)

 

I wouldn't buy more curriculum now. Get her eyes checked. She clearly has problems, but you don't need to teach against her problem. You need to fix the problems you find, THEN build on that improved foundation. If the dc has visual processing problems, focusing, convergence, etc., they aren't even taking in the information correctly in order to process it. You get that process working right, THEN you look at curriculum to build on that foundation. You might need to back up quite a bit. But she might surprise you and take some jumps when you fix the eyes. You can't know till you get them checked.

 

BTW, if you want a funny story, I'll tell you that when my dd was in the thick of all this before Christmas a year and a half ago (age 10) I providentially ended up at this mom's meeting with a bunch of ladies just chatting, a really informal thing in a group that is usually pretty structured. Just as the course of conversations go, we ended up all centering our questions on this one lady in the group who BC (before children, hehe) was an optometrist. I asked her when kids outgrow needing large print books. She looked at me funny, so I asked her AGAIN, when do kids stop needing large print books? She's still looking at me funny, so I ask it a THIRD time. And by this point it's pretty clear that my little girl had grown up faster than I realized. 10 yo's shouldn't need large print books. (It's what happens when the images aren't converging and are fuzzy and the small print of more advanced books is too much of a strain to deal with.) Our little kids grow up so quickly, it's easy to lose track that they're out of the window of wait and into the time to do something about it. I would say you're there. In fact, I would have said it earlier. You'll probably look back and see things in hindsight, but you can't change that. Just do what you can now. Get the developmental optometrist evaluation. I don't know what you can find in Canada. Do some searching. If they don't have them, cross the border. It's THAT important, that life-altering. Once you do that, see what's left and start dealing with the issues. She'll probably have several facets; this will be a process, not a single fix. But if she has vision issues and you don't deal with them, you'll just be beating up against them the whole time with your curriculum choices. We were where you are, with the L/R thing, the letter formation problems, the spelling, you name it, and I can tell you curriculum is not the magic cure. It helps, but it helps best when you have the foundation of good input to build on. You have visual processing and auditory processing. From what I've read, a dyslexic has both. With my dd, I think the auditory processing connects with the working memory and creates little kerflewies throughout the day. I'd like to help her with those, and we keep trying. But the visual processing, that was the vision therapy that helped so much. It just brought RADICAL changes. And some of the stuff like the sound to written correlations were easy to fix after the VT.

 

Well anyways, I'm talking your leg off. See what your options are and what you can get where you live. And yes, you should google stealth dyslexia. That's when they're dyslexic but so stinkin' smart they can hide it. After enough years of that, they just can't hide it anymore. The material gets too hard. They're doing too much by memory alone, and it catches up with them. But anyways, I'll be interested to hear what you find as options!

[PeterPan]

BTW, in 2nd grade my dd was reading through Swiss Family Robinson multiple times in a row for fun. The developmental optometrist didn't even blink an eye when I said she's a strong reader but something's wrong. They could QUANTIFY what was wrong. I was seeing the outgrowth, and because the parent is with the dc so much they see it the most. But the doc could examine them, use their tools, and show the WHYS of the symptoms. It was totally amazing. Let's just say you'll leave convinced if there's a problem. You won't be wondering if you're being taken for a ride. Our place showed me what was going on, and they could connect with dd and speak her language. They had this connection. See all that frustration is in the kid, and no one gets it. You get them in with a person who understands visual processing and how the eyes work, and suddenly the kid lights up.

 

Well whatever, that's just an aside, lol. It was a really amazing experience for us. Dyslexic doesn't = dumb, and doesn't mean they can't read. Interestingly though, about a month into the VT she started picking up smaller print books, and after 3 months of the VT she was reading a volume of LoTR a night. In other words, what I thought was advanced in her was actually held back compared to where she COULD have been or wanted to be. Now she really flies. :)

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm going to stop after this one. This has nothing to do with anything except being my own ramblings on our experiences, but if you DO conclude she's dyslexic, you might save yourself some grief and not get caught up in the whole foreign language thing. We did several years of latin (PL, LC1, some LC2, some Latin Prep and Cambridge) and tried french, chinese, etc. The differences in these kids aren't so apparent in the younger years. It's as you start to move forward that it really crops up in their subjects with terms, lots of memorization, etc. It has actually gotten HARDER as we've gone forward, rather than easier. Perhaps that's because the upper level stuff is so driven by terms, memorization, and textbooks? In any case, that's just your word to the wise, a free tidbit. My one surprise is how much she likes the sign language I do with my toddler ds. It may be that the VT opened up just enough window of processing there. Other than that, I've pretty much given up. I pretty much find myself thinking through every subject and asking whether it's a necessary battle or whether I should modify, etc. See I'm looking at junior high sequences that prepare you for high school stuff, and it's just daunting.

 

Well whatever, that's just your free ramble. It has gotten harder, not easier. Do what you can now with therapies, etc. to build a foundation and skills to work with. You'll be glad you did later.

[Ottakee]

I would give an Apples and Pears placement test and start ASAP.

 

http://www.prometheantrust.org/startspelling.htm

 

.

 

This is what I would suggest. It is designed for kids with LDs and is VERY VERY easy to use and it WORKS. Don't hesitate to start a little easy as it builds skills step by step.

[Strawberry Queen]

Hello ladies,

 

You are so wonderful to give me all of this input. Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. I had our homeschool convention over the weekend so I was otherwise occupied.:D

 

You have given me lots to think about. I think that I will work on her fine motor/letter formation with some activities from a friend of mine. I will look into testing and continue to figure things out. It is so wonderful to have your ideas and support.

 

Oh Elizabeth- thanks for the tip about foreighn language. I haven't really delved into that for dd#2. I never really pushed it because I figured that she had to learn to talk clearly in english before she tried another language. I'm really hesitant about doing written work in another language when she can't make progress in english.:lol: I had been floating around the idea of starting in the fall but now I think I'll wait.;) BTW, I checked into the vision therapy site and there were no doctors in Alberta (that were on their list or finder system). I will pursue other testing first as it will be the cheaper option. If that fails us then I will pursue the vision stuff. Thanks for the information though.

 

As far as spelling goes I've decided to do sequential spelling as my friend's kids with dyslexia use it. I'll be able to tell by the end of school if it is working or not. If not I'll look into other options.

 

Thanks again for all of your help.:grouphug:

[merry gardens]

Hello ladies,

 

You are so wonderful to give me all of this input. Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. I had our homeschool convention over the weekend so I was otherwise occupied.:D

 

You have given me lots to think about. I think that I will work on her fine motor/letter formation with some activities from a friend of mine. I will look into testing and continue to figure things out. It is so wonderful to have your ideas and support.

 

Oh Elizabeth- thanks for the tip about foreighn language. I haven't really delved into that for dd#2. I never really pushed it because I figured that she had to learn to talk clearly in english before she tried another language. I'm really hesitant about doing written work in another language when she can't make progress in english.:lol: I had been floating around the idea of starting in the fall but now I think I'll wait.;) BTW, I checked into the vision therapy site and there were no doctors in Alberta (that were on their list or finder system). I will pursue other testing first as it will be the cheaper option. If that fails us then I will pursue the vision stuff. Thanks for the information though.

 

As far as spelling goes I've decided to do sequential spelling as my friend's kids with dyslexia use it. I'll be able to tell by the end of school if it is working or not. If not I'll look into other options.

 

Thanks again for all of your help.:grouphug:

If she's having problems speaking clearly in addition to spelling, then I strongly suggest you check her phonemic awareness. Some people "hear" whole words and tones fine, but they don't detect the individual sounds that make up words. Poor phonemic awareness is strongly linked with dyslexia. You mention that it seemed like she's not getting the sound to symbol relationship in English--and that's another clue to check phonemic awareness.

 

Speech therapists can test for phonemic awareness too, (and sometimes remediate it). Some audiologists test for and remediate it too. There are ways to develop that ability in people that don't come by it naturally. The student screening at Barton Reading and Spelling's website has a quick check that you can do at home that may catch some of the more severe cases of poor phonemic awareness.

http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html'>http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html

[PeterPan]

Like Merry, I'm surprised by your comment about talking clearly. Verbal apraxia and dyslexia often go hand-in-hand. In fact, I recently read that 75% of children with verbal apraxia turn out to be dyslexic. You should definitely research it. The treatment for verbal apraxia is totally different from regular speech therapy, because verbal apraxia is a motor control problem, not a delay.

[kareng]

I've been following this thread about dyslexia and spelling. Could any of you tell me the differences between Apples and Pears and All About Spelling? Is Apples and Pears a lot easier to use than AAS?

[Mandamom]

Like Merry, I'm surprised by your comment about talking clearly. Verbal apraxia and dyslexia often go hand-in-hand. In fact, I recently read that 75% of children with verbal apraxia turn out to be dyslexic. You should definitely research it. The treatment for verbal apraxia is totally different from regular speech therapy, because verbal apraxia is a motor control problem, not a delay.

 

I agree, and it is very difficult to fix without a really good speech/language therapist. My ds5 has been in speech therapy through the schools since he turned 18 months old and made barely acceptable progress. Last August he started private therapy and the progress has been amazing. It is expensive but well worth it.

 

I'm watching for signs of dyslexia. (I'm O/G trained so I know what to look for).

[calandalsmom]

If she's having problems speaking clearly in addition to spelling, then I strongly suggest you check her phonemic awareness. Some people "hear" whole words and tones fine, but they don't detect the individual sounds that make up words. Poor phonemic awareness is strongly linked with dyslexia. You mention that it seemed like she's not getting the sound to symbol relationship in English--and that's another clue to check phonemic awareness.

 

Speech therapists can test for phonemic awareness too, (and sometimes remediate it). Some audiologists test for and remediate it too. There are ways to develop that ability in people that don't come by it naturally. The student screening at Barton Reading and Spelling's website has a quick check that you can do at home that may catch some of the more severe cases of poor phonemic awareness.

http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html'>http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html'>http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html'>http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html http://www.bartonreading.com/students_long.html

 

 

Poor phonemic awareness in a child who has been taught it basically is dyslexia, according to our neuro psych. He called it phonemic dyslexia. My ds has this- his reading was gr 10 and his spelling gr 2 when he was assessed.

[dtsmamtj]

So, does anyone know if Apples and Pears would work for a child who has phonemic awareness issues?

 

T

[Finnella]

The only reason I'm making another post about seeing an optometrist is to mention another good reason to do it. The fast checks that pediatricians do often do not uncover vision issues. My DS was a classic example. He had weak muscles in his left eye. He could force himself to keep focused long enough for a brief exam. The longer exam with the eye doctor tired out the muscles, and the problem was revealed! It wasn't the last of his problems, but fixing that was a big help.

[peacefully]

.

[happymom]

Another vote for Apples and Pears. We are now on the last book and my son is spelling all of those hard words-just finishing up 6th grade. All about Spelling worked until the middle of the 2nd book he hit a wall. About the time they have words spelled with ee and ea mixed up. He never could remember which was which and we stayed with it for too long. Sequential Spelling was a complete waste of time. Apples and Pears has been the easiest to teach, least time consuming, and least boring of all of them and it works! Don't know how it works but it does.

[Love_to_Read]

google dysgraphia as well...if she truly reads well, then the poor handwriitng and spelling fall under dysgraphia

 

it's all related, though...my dd's dx is dysgraphia because she reads chapter books, but the more we cover phonics and phonemic awareness, the more I'm suspecting that she does have dyslexia but just covers it well