another "normal" question

[TracyP]

I keep writing and deleting as I try to explain so I apologize for the mess.

 

I don't think my first two are "normal"; I think they are advanced. My third child is a 3.5 yo boy. I cannot figure out if he is "normal" or behind. He is clearly behind my first two but...:confused: His speech is delayed and we are working on that. How do you know what is "normal"? I know teaching yourself to read at 3 (my first son) is not normal. But what is? I have used this ages and stages test and it says he is "typically developing". Do you think an online test like that is accurate? He has missed some milestones but he was born 3 weeks early, spent a week in NICU, and screamed 75% of his waking hours for the first few months. He seemed to miss less and less milestones as he got older. My dh and family members and dr. think he is fine. But my 2 yo is probably going to surpass him soon.:glare: Should I just :chillpill: for now? Should I pursue some sort of testing? Any btdt advice?

[2smartones]

Have you had his hearing tested specifically by an audiologist (not just a screening)? Has he had a lot of ear infections?

 

Siblings who are 100% blood relatives have been shown over and over to have the same IQ within a few points of each other. I would venture to say all your children are equally smart, HOWEVER, they probably all have different personalities, different strengths, etc. My boys are completely opposite in personality and in strength. One is a very driven, logical reader. The other is a whimsical, lazy, mathy person. They're equally "smart", but they're also equally challenged in their weaker areas.

 

Prematurity probably plays a role in one child being behind the others. If I were you, I'd look only at the things you CAN change (like possibly audiology testing, if you haven't already done that), and ignore the ones you can't.

[Crimson Wife]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

 

My 2nd and 3rd kids have/had speech & language delays. It's SOOO hard to get an accurate assessment of how bright a young child is who lags verbally.

 

My oldest is extremely verbal and has been from a very young age. By 18 mos. it was obvious to strangers that she was very bright.

 

My DS took longer to "bloom" but now at age 5 1/4 he's reading long chapter books and the other day he actually did a section out of DD's Singapore 4A math book. He was listening in while I was teaching it to her and was clearly fascinated by it (it was on area & perimeter) so I copied a few pages to give to him. He needed the abacus to solve the addition and multiplication parts of the problems but he clearly understood the main procedure and concepts.

[EKS]

I personally think that if his development is atypical for the children in your family then it should be looked into.

 

I probably would have been aware of my older son's learning disabilities if my younger son had been born first. By the time the younger one was 2 or 3, and was following a developmental trajectory that you would expect as a child of gifted parents, it was apparent that the older one was delayed in comparison.

Edited April 12, 2011 by EKS

[Mandy in TN]

Siblings who are 100% blood relatives have been shown over and over to have the same IQ within a few points of each other.

Although I have heard this before, it simply isn't the case with my sons. My oldest is 2E- mildly dyslexic and mildly gifted. My second ds tested within the average range. At the beginning of second grade, the only thing outside normal for ds #2 was tendency toward perfectionism accompanied by a complete disintegration of skills in timed situations. They are full siblings.

My third ds is a half-sib to my older two, so he is not a 100% blood relative. Although he has never been tested I would venture to say that he is gifted academically in ways the other two are not, because his father is quite bright.

So, I birthed a 2E son, a not-so-average-Joe son, and an academically advanced son.

 

Should I just :chillpill: for now? Should I pursue some sort of testing? Any btdt advice?

 

My oldest needed tubes in his ears (so he could hear better), enlarged adenoids removed (so he could breathe better), speech therapy (so he could learn to speak clearly after the first two issues mentioned), occupational therapy (for low muscle tone in his hands), and reading intervention (for dyslexia). He was a 37, 38 wk preemie (not sure, as it was before the day of routine ultrasounds and I never had one)- NICU for 13 days. I don't regret any of the testing. My 2nd ds didn't need any medical or educational intervention. I still don't regret any of the testing.

If testing is available, go for it- the sooner the better! It was a family friend/ speech therapist who said that it looked to her like oldest ds was trying to create a better air passage while he was speaking. She suggested going to the ENT who discovered the enlarged adenoids. Prior to having those removed, ds snored like an old man and woke up all through the night. The doctor said that he didn't know how ds could breathe at all while on his back. I'm glad I didn't listen to people who told me to wait and he might outgrow it. I imagine his speech would have only gotten worse and been more difficult to correct if I had waited.

HTH-

Mandy

[TracyP]

Thank you to all who responded. This has been brewing in my head for a long time and it is helpful to get some different perspectives.

 

Have you had his hearing tested specifically by an audiologist (not just a screening)? Has he had a lot of ear infections?

 

 

He has passed the normal hearing screenings, never had an ear infection and seems to hear fine. Is this something that could still be an underlying problem?

 

My 2nd and 3rd kids have/had speech & language delays. It's SOOO hard to get an accurate assessment of how bright a young child is who lags verbally.

 

 

This seems so true and frustrating. I know he *knows* things that he doesn't have words for but I can't get a good feel for exactly where he is at.

 

I personally think that if his development is atypical for the children in your family then it should be look into.

 

 

That is a really good point. Thank you.

 

If testing is available, go for it- the sooner the better! It was a family friend/ speech therapist who said that it looked to her like oldest ds was trying to create a better air passage while he was speaking. She suggested going to the ENT who discovered the enlarged adenoids. Prior to having those removed, ds snored like an old man and woke up all through the night. The doctor said that he didn't know how ds could breathe at all while on his back. I'm glad I didn't listen to people who told me to wait and he might outgrow it. I imagine his speech would have only gotten worse and been more difficult to correct if I had waited.

 

HTH-

Mandy

 

Honestly, I have been scared of testing because I don't want him stuck with a label. But at this point if there is nothing wrong, there won't be a label. If there is something wrong, we can do something about it.

[rowan25]

 

Siblings who are 100% blood relatives have been shown over and over to have the same IQ within a few points of each other. I would venture to say all your children are equally smart,

You know, I've heard this a lot as well. It wasn't true in my own situation. My brother tested at 160+, however I only tested at 136. He qualified as gifted; I did not. I suppose that's what I have a hard time seeing my daughter as possibly gifted, even though she fits MANY of the characteristics.

 

I would also agree with the others who suggested detailed auditory screenings. Along with some research into visual-spatial learners, maybe. Good luck, OP!

[SnegurochkaL]

So my husband grabbed one of his trade magazines (computer related) and told DS to read it. DS read several lines. We had been working on C-A-T. :001_huh: Uh, when did that happen?! Apparently I was just boring the poor kid.

 

I've noticed overall my two just have very different approaches to things. One jumps right in and does it. The other studies it for awhile from afar then does it perfectly.

 

I agree. I had similar situation with my daughter. I was working on phonograms with her and did some reading comprehension. They were so easy for her so I started wondering why she was moving so slow. The answer was her being bored to death. I discovered it when I saw a book about horses in her hands which didn't have any pictures( she likes "pretty things"), so I was wondering what she was doing with that book. I didn't believe that she read it until I asked her to re-tell the story.

 

I think each child is different. My son (who is 4) gets some things faster than my 8 years old but they are both bright kids.

 

I would not worry about your child being "late" comparing to your other two kids. My oldest was a late talker( language decision), my son waited until he was ready to speak in sentences ( around 2,5 but he is a lazy talker), and my youngest is a chatter box, who just never stops.

[boscopup]

My oldest did many academic things earlier than average, then along came DS2... He was speech delayed and seemed to overall act about a year younger than his actual age. At 3.5, I had to actively teach him colors and counting to 10 (R&S preschool workbooks), because he hadn't picked them up on his own. While that's still considered normal, there is a lot of giftedness on both sides, so it's pretty likely that all our kids would be that way. Of course, I understand that that may not necessarily be the case.

 

As DS has improved in speech (and he goes to speech therapy now - loves it!), I'm seeing jumps in overall cognitive ability. I also am starting to see signs of giftedness... I think once he's school age, he'll probably be more like his older brother. Funny thing is, it's older brother that was a preemie (29 weeks). The other 2 were 1 day shy of 37 weeks, which appears to be full term for them (i flash cook my kids :D).

 

So anyway, this child throws me for a loop. He'll seem behind for a long time, then he'll jump ahead. He seems to actually be a bit more analytical than my oldest, even though the oldest picked up on things like reading and math earlier (actually, DS1 technically didn't"blend" until 4.5, though he'd known letters and sounds since early 2 when he started talking, but his first book was grade level 1.5 and he took off from there... DS2 didn't know letter sounds until early 4, but he could "blend" already, which I thought was strange... He's 4.5 now and reads CVC words, but isn't ready for books yet).

 

I figure DS2 will just be a wait and see case, since besides speech, there is nothing "delayed" compared to a normal child, and he is catching up. His brain just waits a while, then turns something on suddenly and he has great understanding. Even his speech therapist has noticed this happen a few times this year. She always comments how he's doing things her Kindergartners aren't doing yet, but then his general understanding of life and use of communication is behind other kids his age, except he'll use some occasional big words in his grammatically incorrect sentences. He sounds like a mixture of a 2 year old and a 5 year old.

 

I look forward to seeing how this child ends up in a few years. :)

[Donna]

Siblings who are 100% blood relatives have been shown over and over to have the same IQ within a few points of each other. I would venture to say all your children are equally smart, HOWEVER, they probably all have different personalities, different strengths, etc. My boys are completely opposite in personality and in strength. One is a very driven, logical reader. The other is a whimsical, lazy, mathy person. They're equally "smart", but they're also equally challenged in their weaker areas.

 

Prematurity probably plays a role in one child being behind the others. If I were you, I'd look only at the things you CAN change (like possibly audiology testing, if you haven't already done that), and ignore the ones you can't.

 

Statistically siblings have been shown to be within 10 points of each other but I think you have to be careful in extrapolating that to mean *all* siblings fall within that range. It simply isn't true. Some are closer and some are further apart. I know of people who are gifted but have siblings who fall in the below average category.

 

Prematurity can play a role. I work with developmentally delayed children and 3 weeks premature would not really be considered premature when looking at developmental milestones. We would not adjust for prematurity until 4 weeks premature however it can affect very early milestone development as can difficulties early on like reflux and inconsolable crying. A child with issues is just not getting the same input or processing input like a calm, quiet baby.

 

Every child is different. My middle ds was slower to pick up reading than my other two. I thought he must have dyslexia or something. His sister (5 years younger) read better than he did when he was 8yo. I had him evaluated twice by different professionals who said he was actually ahead of his age peers reading and my "normal" was simply skewed. Now in school he is doing just fine with reading but he still hates to read and never would for personal enjoyment at this point.

 

If your child is developing normally according to charts of milestone development, I would tend not to worry. However, if there is something you feel is not right...mothers do tend to have a 6th sense when it comes to their children...you may want to have him evaluated by professionals. Every state has an Early Intervention program with mandated free assessments. It wouldn't hurt to have him looked at even if the results are fine and simply put you at ease.

[EKS]

My middle ds was slower to pick up reading than my other two. I thought he must have dyslexia or something. His sister (5 years younger) read better than he did when he was 8yo. I had him evaluated twice by different professionals who said he was actually ahead of his age peers reading and my "normal" was simply skewed. Now in school he is doing just fine with reading but he still hates to read and never would for personal enjoyment at this point.

 

 

 

The problem is that a gifted child with dyslexia (or other issues that affect reading) can actually present as above average. And then the professionals, particularly ones who aren't familiar with 2E issues (essentially *all* of them) dismiss any concerns because the kid seems to be "just fine." They can't see that he is really struggling underneath.

 

Sometimes siblings are the only baseline you have.

[Crimson Wife]

The problem is that a gifted child with dyslexia (or other issues that affect reading) can actually present as above average. And then the professionals, particularly ones who aren't familiar with 2E issues (essentially *all* of them) dismiss any concerns because the kid seems to be "just fine." They can't see that he is really struggling underneath.

 

My cousin is like this. His dyslexia wasn't diagnosed until college because his giftedness was allowed him to compensate enough throughout K-12. My aunt was told over and over again that he was just better at math than reading.

[Rivka]

Siblings who are 100% blood relatives have been shown over and over to have the same IQ within a few points of each other. I would venture to say all your children are equally smart, HOWEVER, they probably all have different personalities, different strengths, etc.

 

I wonder if you could provide some references for this, because I don't think it's the case. Siblings' IQs correlate about 0.5, which is a strong correlation but wouldn't necessarily produce scores within a few points of each other.

 

From a genetic standpoint, siblings who are 100% blood relatives have an average of 50% of their genes in common. Just by random chance some siblings will be much more genetically similar and others will be much less similar. From an environmental standpoint, siblings' environments can be less identical than you might imagine, due to factors such as birth order, temperament, family resources and stressors, medical events, etc. All in all there are quite a few opportunities for variation in sibling IQ.

[SEP]

 

Honestly, I have been scared of testing because I don't want him stuck with a label. But at this point if there is nothing wrong, there won't be a label. If there is something wrong, we can do something about it.

 

You are the parent. You have to consent to the 'label'.

[zaichiki]

The problem is that a gifted child with dyslexia (or other issues that affect reading) can actually present as above average.

 

This has been our experience. Luckily (and I hate to say it that way) dd was struggling enough at 6 y.o. that the pediatrician was able to catch the asynchrony and referred us for further testing. (She still presented as above average in her reading skills, but there were some really strange things going on with that reading and I LOVE MY PEDIATRICIAN for noticing!)

 

Developmental optometrist ruled out vision issues and we got a referral for a neuropsych. Thankfully we already had a baseline IQ b/c she was tested a couple of years earlier. (Older brother was tested for a local-ish TAG school and we got a good 2 for 1 deal on the testing.) The way her learning to read was presenting didn't match the expectations based on her IQ score. That gap was what the professionals needed to have in order to dig deeper and find the dyslexia.

 

It turned out to be a good thing. We learned a lot (dh and f-i-l present with the same symptoms and always thought they were just not very intelligent) and started down the road of remediation. I shudder to think what potential would have been missed and the self-esteem issues that would have begun if we had not found the dyslexia.

Edited April 13, 2011 by zaichiki

[TracyP]

You are the parent. You have to consent to the 'label'.

 

I hope I'm not being dense here (quite likely) but can you explain? Do you mean *I* am the only one who would label him/share the label with others? Does this apply if he were to receive intervention through the ps system?

[deacongirl]

You know, I've heard this a lot as well. It wasn't true in my own situation. My brother tested at 160+, however I only tested at 136. He qualified as gifted; I did not. I suppose that's what I have a hard time seeing my daughter as possibly gifted, even though she fits MANY of the characteristics.

 

I would also agree with the others who suggested detailed auditory screenings. Along with some research into visual-spatial learners, maybe. Good luck, OP!

 

Gifted girls generally present differently than gifted boys. It might be worthwhile to just do a google search for issues related to gifted girls and women.

[rowan25]

Gifted girls generally present differently than gifted boys. It might be worthwhile to just do a google search for issues related to gifted girls and women.

That's not a bad idea. My brother was the classic absent minded professor, excellent at math, and just as talented in other academic areas.

 

My daughter and I both would be considered gifted readers, among other "non" academic talents for myself and probably her as well. But I was not well rounded at all, thus I was told my scores suffered accordingly.

 

Thanks for the googling tip. I'm off to learn! :D

[In The Great White North]

My cousin is like this. His dyslexia wasn't diagnosed until college because his giftedness was allowed him to compensate enough throughout K-12. My aunt was told over and over again that he was just better at math than reading.

 

What caused the diagnosis and how was it diagnosed?

[Donna]

I hope I'm not being dense here (quite likely) but can you explain? Do you mean *I* am the only one who would label him/share the label with others? Does this apply if he were to receive intervention through the ps system?

 

I am not sure how it works in other states but here in NJ a child who receives Early Intervention Services does not receive a label...unless they have a diagnosis like PDD, Autism, CP, or whatever. They are simply developmentally delayed and receive EI services.

 

If they need services at 3yo they are assessed by the school district and are put in a preschool "disabled" classroom. (I think that is still the term they use but it could have changed since it tends to change regularly.) Some school districts have "typically" developing kids in their preschool program (chosen by lottery) and others have only kids with developmental delays in their classrooms. The children are re-evaluated when it comes time for K and if they do not need services any longer, there is no "label" that follows them.

[boscopup]

I hope I'm not being dense here (quite likely) but can you explain? Do you mean *I* am the only one who would label him/share the label with others? Does this apply if he were to receive intervention through the ps system?

 

Is he in speech therapy yet? My son is in speech therapy through the ps system and has no "label". They haven't tested for anything else, but they did test his speech and qualify him for therapy. He started last August when he was about 3.5. His SLP just tested him again last week to see where he was, and she said she'd go ahead and plan to keep him in therapy until next fall, and we'll see where he's at then (he won't have therapy over the summer). I imagine he probably won't need it then, but who knows. He loves going, so I hate to end it. :lol:

[TracyP]

I am not sure how it works in other states but here in NJ a child who receives Early Intervention Services does not receive a label...unless they have a diagnosis like PDD, Autism, CP, or whatever. They are simply developmentally delayed and receive EI services.

 

If they need services at 3yo they are assessed by the school district and are put in a preschool "disabled" classroom. (I think that is still the term they use but it could have changed since it tends to change regularly.) Some school districts have "typically" developing kids in their preschool program (chosen by lottery) and others have only kids with developmental delays in their classrooms. The children are re-evaluated when it comes time for K and if they do not need services any longer, there is no "label" that follows them.

 

Is he in speech therapy yet? My son is in speech therapy through the ps system and has no "label". They haven't tested for anything else, but they did test his speech and qualify him for therapy. He started last August when he was about 3.5. His SLP just tested him again last week to see where he was, and she said she'd go ahead and plan to keep him in therapy until next fall, and we'll see where he's at then (he won't have therapy over the summer). I imagine he probably won't need it then, but who knows. He loves going, so I hate to end it. :lol:

 

Thank you both. I don't even know what label I was scared of, I just talked to some other hs'ers and got the whole 'don't let them label your kid' bit. This is helpful as I am debating going through ps system or privately.

 

Bosco, no, he is not in speech therapy yet. We have a doc appt next Tuesday so I'm going to ask for a referral then. Have you seen improvement from speech therapy? I have been doing Super Star Speech at home and have seen some improvement but not "enough" IMO.

 

I am going to talk to the doc about my concerns and see what he thinks. I had to put it to the hive mind first.:) Thanks all, this has given me a clearer idea of specifics to discuss with my doctor.

[Storm Bay]

I keep writing and deleting as I try to explain so I apologize for the mess.

 

I don't think my first two are "normal"; I think they are advanced. My third child is a 3.5 yo boy. I cannot figure out if he is "normal" or behind. He is clearly behind my first two but...:confused: His speech is delayed and we are working on that. How do you know what is "normal"? I know teaching yourself to read at 3 (my first son) is not normal. But what is? I have used this ages and stages test and it says he is "typically developing". Do you think an online test like that is accurate? He has missed some milestones but he was born 3 weeks early, spent a week in NICU, and screamed 75% of his waking hours for the first few months. He seemed to miss less and less milestones as he got older. My dh and family members and dr. think he is fine. But my 2 yo is probably going to surpass him soon.:glare: Should I just :chillpill: for now? Should I pursue some sort of testing? Any btdt advice?

 

I strongly suggest that you find a vision therapist and have him evaluated there, too, not just for hearing (also important.) http://www.covd.org/ You can find someone here.

 

My ds is as gifted as his sisters, but has had some delays. In fact, I was very surprised to learn he was gifted. He has just started vision therapy and I wish I'd done this sooner instead of listening to his regular eye doctor. Everyone can benefit from vision therapy, but that doesn't mean everyone needs it. In our case, ds doesn't use his eyes together and it has a huge impact on what he does. fwiw, vision and sight are not the same things, according the the therapist ds is going to. Ds's vision therapist had been doing this since th 1950s (yes, he's old, but sharp and it's obvious that he knows what he's doing; he studied with some of the big names in the field.)

 

Another thing I would do is to get Smart Moves: Why Learning is Not All in Your Head by Carla Hannaford http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Moves-Learning-Your-Head/dp/0915556278 and Brain Gym. http://www.amazon.com/Brain-Gym-Simple-Activities-Learning/dp/0942143051/ref=pd_sim_b_2

 

Another helpful book in general is http://www.amazon.com/Dominance-Factor-Knowing-Dominant-Learning/dp/0915556316/ref=pd_sim_b_3

[TracyP]

Thanks Karin, for the additional info. My library has all three of those books so I'll check them out. I live in the boonies but there is actually a vision therapist about an hour from me. I know there is some sort of vision guy at my local clinic that the doctor raves about. We have chatted about it because my husband has tracking issues. (argh, why didn't I ever put this stuff together?) I don't see him listed at the COVD site. If he is a vision therapist, do you think it would be worthwhile to see him or would you travel further to see someone with COVD?

[Storm Bay]

Thanks Karin, for the additional info. My library has all three of those books so I'll check them out. I live in the boonies but there is actually a vision therapist about an hour from me. I know there is some sort of vision guy at my local clinic that the doctor raves about. We have chatted about it because my husband has tracking issues. (argh, why didn't I ever put this stuff together?) I don't see him listed at the COVD site. If he is a vision therapist, do you think it would be worthwhile to see him or would you travel further to see someone with COVD?

 

I don't know, but based on what I know now I'd see if the local therapist has the same kind of training first, because therapy is once a week. Ds is doing things with balls (one swings, another bounces, card games, etc) Each exercise has a purpose, has to be done daily, and one mastered is stopped for a new one. If the training isn't the same, I'd drive the hour. Someone you may wish to ask is OhElizabeth, who is one of the people who steered me in this direction.