Another nugget from Corbett's Classical Rhetoric

[elegantlion]

I adore this book. It's like standing on the summit of a mountain and looking down at the vastness of Rhetoric.

 

Anyway, I stumbled upon this epiphany today and I almost hesitate to post. It seems so easy and yet I've missed it while trying to decipher many of the imitation type writing programs I've used.

 

Corbett talks about Imitation, starting with copying (copywork) and gives some great reasons for its importance.

 

Then he talks about Imitating sentence pattern. It's right there in the heading, sentence PATTERN. I've been stuck trying to recreate style more than pattern.

 

He states that the student should follow the kind, number, and order of the phrases and clauses of the sentence. For example, if there is an adverbial phrase, use one.

 

He lists several examples, one being:

 

model: The gallows stood in a small yard, separate from the main grounds of the prison, and overgrown with tall prickly weeds.

 

imitation: The dog shivered in the background, wet from nosing his way through the early-morning grasses and covered with damp cocklespurs.

 

A lightbulb went on when I read this. I realized I had missed this point amidst the confusion of the writing programs I've encountered. It's like mad libs, but with good sentences and literature. I've been trying to get ds to rewrite the model without utilizing the structure of the sentence, hence the blank stares.

 

I've not read much past there this morning as I've been feeling like a dunce and shouting Eureka! at the same time.

 

Maybe this is old news to most of you, maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but imitation of structure I can teach. I can start there and move forward (probably after more epiphanies). I've found a starting place.

 

You may be laughing at me as you already hold this wisdom, but I wanted to share in case anyone else could use the clarity.

[SonshineLearner]

Wow, very nice!! I'll have to get this before my son is much older... Just to try to grasp some of the nuggets :)

[Capt_Uhura]

THAT'S KILLGALLON!!!

 

Forgive me for shouting lol. You're going to make me buy this book.

[elegantlion]

Wow, very nice!! I'll have to get this before my son is much older... Just to try to grasp some of the nuggets :)

 

I've had it on my list and the only reason I bought it now was because I found it at a thrift store. It's very dense and some of it is beyond where *I'm* at right now.

 

 

THAT'S KILLGALLON!!!

 

Forgive me for shouting lol. You're going to make me buy this book.

 

Thank you. As I'm skimming through this book I see how different programs fit into the whole rhetoric puzzle. I almost bought Killgallon, it's nice to see it would fit into the puzzle

[Capt_Uhura]

DS and I were doing WWE4 the other day. The dictation passage was from the Gettysburg Address. "The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, for above our poor power to add or detract."

 

I thought "Adjectives shifted out of order!" I bought Image Grammar to go w/ Killgallon - to give the love to go w/ the get it done-ness of Killgallon.

 

Anyhow, Image Grammar explained when and why to use adjectives shifted out of order and gave examples from literature. We then came up with our own sentences using adjectives shifted out of order.

[Colleen in NS]

Then he talks about Imitating sentence pattern. It's right there in the heading, sentence PATTERN. I've been stuck trying to recreate style more than pattern.

 

He states that the student should follow the kind, number, and order of the phrases and clauses of the sentence. For example, if there is an adverbial phrase, use one.

 

He lists several examples, one being:

 

model: The gallows stood in a small yard, separate from the main grounds of the prison, and overgrown with tall prickly weeds.

 

imitation: The dog shivered in the background, wet from nosing his way through the early-morning grasses and covered with damp cocklespurs.

 

A lightbulb went on when I read this. I realized I had missed this point amidst the confusion of the writing programs I've encountered. It's like mad libs, but with good sentences and literature. I've been trying to get ds to rewrite the model without utilizing the structure of the sentence, hence the blank stares.

 

I like reading about these Eureka! moments, because they help me, too, for when I get to certain points in my teaching. I have Corbett but haven't dug into it yet. But it's good to know that it's this practical! I need practical.

[Kim in SouthGa]

which edition is the best? They vary so much in price! Is one as good as the other?

[Mommyfaithe]

THAT'S KILLGALLON!!!

 

Forgive me for shouting lol. You're going to make me buy this book.

 

YEP!!! Killgallon! Love it!

Faithe

[elegantlion]

DS and I were doing WWE4 the other day. The dictation passage was from the Gettysburg Address. "The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, for above our poor power to add or detract."

 

I thought "Adjectives shifted out of order!" I bought Image Grammar to go w/ Killgallon - to give the love to go w/ the get it done-ness of Killgallon.

 

Anyhow, Image Grammar explained when and why to use adjectives shifted out of order and gave examples from literature. We then came up with our own sentences using adjectives shifted out of order.

 

We examined the Gettysburg Address a couple of weeks ago. I think the logic stage is a great time to dig into the powerful words and images it creates. I always have this image of a 2nd or 3rd grader in a construction paper hat quoting it from memory, it cute, but at 13 they get so much more from it.

 

I like reading about these Eureka! moments, because they help me, too, for when I get to certain points in my teaching. I have Corbett but haven't dug into it yet. But it's good to know that it's this practical! I need practical.

 

It is practical. I think if I tried to read it before some of these other programs it would have made no sense.

 

which edition is the best? They vary so much in price! Is one as good as the other?

 

I don't know about the different editions. I have a 1966 version. I did see a 3rd edition for around 15.00 used on amazon.

 

YEP!!! Killgallon! Love it!

Faithe

 

It's nice to know if we go that direction it will work well into the overall picture of rhetoric.

 

 

I think (as in the plan at this moment) is to use our memory pieces for the imitation exercises. We've been doing longer pieces and we can spend some time dissecting them and rewriting them. I envision something like Classical Writing, but with shorter pieces.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Well, thanks for taking up my whole evening by posting this, elegantlion!

 

I have been forced to read everything at Classical Writing again, and now I'll have to waste an hour or so researching Kilgallon.

 

All your fault.

 

I'm excited because what you are describing is what I always thought Ben Franklin must have been doing with his own personal writing lessons. When I've had my son imitate writing, I told him he should imitate the moral, mood, style, and sentence structure.

 

We didn't do it very often, but I loved the results of those assignments. He does a great Dallas Lore Sharp.

 

I had no verification that we were doing something real and classical with that, or how much father we could have gone.

 

Now I want to learn everything about it and do this deliberately with my youngest son.

[Cleopatra]

I adore this book. It's like standing on the summit of a mountain and looking down at the vastness of Rhetoric.

 

Anyway, I stumbled upon this epiphany today and I almost hesitate to post. It seems so easy and yet I've missed it while trying to decipher many of the imitation type writing programs I've used.

 

Corbett talks about Imitation, starting with copying (copywork) and gives some great reasons for its importance.

 

Then he talks about Imitating sentence pattern. It's right there in the heading, sentence PATTERN. I've been stuck trying to recreate style more than pattern.

 

He states that the student should follow the kind, number, and order of the phrases and clauses of the sentence. For example, if there is an adverbial phrase, use one.

 

He lists several examples, one being:

 

model: The gallows stood in a small yard, separate from the main grounds of the prison, and overgrown with tall prickly weeds.

 

imitation: The dog shivered in the background, wet from nosing his way through the early-morning grasses and covered with damp cocklespurs.

 

A lightbulb went on when I read this. I realized I had missed this point amidst the confusion of the writing programs I've encountered. It's like mad libs, but with good sentences and literature. I've been trying to get ds to rewrite the model without utilizing the structure of the sentence, hence the blank stares.

 

I've not read much past there this morning as I've been feeling like a dunce and shouting Eureka! at the same time.

 

Maybe this is old news to most of you, maybe I'm showing my ignorance, but imitation of structure I can teach. I can start there and move forward (probably after more epiphanies). I've found a starting place.

 

You may be laughing at me as you already hold this wisdom, but I wanted to share in case anyone else could use the clarity.

 

Ah, this is very similar to Classical Writing. How comforting! :001_smile:

 

Thanks for the "look in"! The only difference is that you are figuring it out yourself and I am just following other people who have already figured it out (CW). :001_huh: Hmmmm ...... you said $15.00 on amazon for a 3rd edition?? ..... hee hee! .....:D

[prairiegirl]

I am very sheepishly going to admit something. We use CW and are now on Homer B. They have the child copy the sentence phrase for phrase, clause for clause. When they started doing this, I couldn't wrap my brain around the importance of this, so I skipped it! :rolleyes: Recently, I revisited that section and everything made sense then. What was I thinking? Now, I need to do damage control. The thing with CW workbooks is that they go at quite a pace so where we are now, the sentences are quite intricate and for dd to replicate them will be tricky and just plain hard.

[elegantlion]

I am very sheepishly going to admit something. We use CW and are now on Homer B. They have the child copy the sentence phrase for phrase, clause for clause. When they started doing this, I couldn't wrap my brain around the importance of this, so I skipped it! :rolleyes: Recently, I revisited that section and everything made sense then. What was I thinking? Now, I need to do damage control. The thing with CW workbooks is that they go at quite a pace so where we are now, the sentences are quite intricate and for dd to replicate them will be tricky and just plain hard.

 

We've used CW. I've read the entire Homer core. :blush: We had to step back from it because it was too much for ds at the time.

 

I think I got hung up in Homer because you were rewriting the sentence with synonyms, and (I don't have my book here to check) that we were dealing with author's intent. It sounds silly to me, but if I had understood that you would rewrite the sentence PATTERN it would have freed me up. We like to be silly. We had fun with our Shakespearean sonnet.

[Lizzie in Ma]

Fabulous! I own the book, have yet to assign it, we are only in year one of HS.

What grade are you using it for?

[elegantlion]

Fabulous! I own the book, have yet to assign it, we are only in year one of HS.

What grade are you using it for?

 

It's recommended for high school in the WTM and we won't use it until then, probably not until his junior or senior year. We'll probably go through the few books WTM suggests before Corbett.

 

It's helping me see the entire picture of rhetoric. I'll use bits and pieces to assign to more simple work, diluting it for my son's level, but keeping the essence.

[1Togo]

Classical Composition incorporates this into its weekly writing cycle; i.e. Exercise 2. You don't need Kilgallon to do the work. You can select sentences from your children's literature books, which makes the work relevant. Choose a sentence and then rewrite it in several ways; i.e. write a new sentence with the same structure, replace words with synonyms for thesaurus/vocabulary work, vary the structure via sentence openers (IEW) or flipping, or expand the sentence via phrases/clauses. This is all part of the first two stages of the progymnasmata, which was the pre-rhetoric writing instruction for centuries.

Edited March 28, 2011 by 1Togo

[FloridaLisa]

Yes, both Killgallon and Classical Writing (Homer) incorporate this exercise. That's one of the reasons I've fallen over CW this year -- Homer is full of exercises which require/allow the child to play with words, sentences and paragraphs.

 

CW takes it one step further. The student first diagrams the sentence and then imitates the structure.

 

:001_wub:

 

Lisa

[Cleopatra]

I am very sheepishly going to admit something. We use CW and are now on Homer B. They have the child copy the sentence phrase for phrase, clause for clause. When they started doing this, I couldn't wrap my brain around the importance of this, so I skipped it! :rolleyes: Recently, I revisited that section and everything made sense then. What was I thinking? Now, I need to do damage control. The thing with CW workbooks is that they go at quite a pace so where we are now, the sentences are quite intricate and for dd to replicate them will be tricky and just plain hard.

 

Don't give up! :001_smile: They do go at quite a pace; it takes us two weeks to go through one lesson (one, if the lessons are easier, as at the start of the books). My dd plans to start Diogenes in grade 8. I'm okay with that. It's better to go a little slower for understanding than rush the child through without them actually "getting it". And remember, once you finish Herodotus, that is equal to finishing grade 12 in school (but the child finishes with far superior skills, IMO).

[Kalmia]

vary the structure via sentence openers (IEW) or flipping

 

ITogo,

 

If it is not too much trouble, would you give me an example (with model sentence and imitation) of how to do the exercise I quoted above. The other recommendations I've seen/used, but I am not familiar with IEW's ways. Thanks

[Jyniffrec]

:bigear:

[1Togo]

IEW teaches basic style techniques; i.e. dress ups and sentence openers. Some of the sentence openers are preposition, adverb, and clause. IEW also teaches advanced style. If you join the IEW yahoo group, you can find lots of information in the files section.

 

The rabbit crossed the finish line and found the turtle fast asleep.

 

When the rabbit crossed the finish line, he found the turtle fast asleep.

 

Despondently, the rabbit crossed the finish line and found the turtle fast asleep.

[Kalmia]

Thank you, 1Togo.

[Create Your Ritual]

Great thread! Lots of AHA moments going on in my brain. Can anyone compare what Classical Composition Fable does with WT2? Does WT2 give any examples of how to pattern a sentence from one given. I really liked Exercise 2 from Classical Composition. Does CW Homer do that same thing in their exercises? I loved how 1Togo explained integrating IEW, CW together .. I just wondered if ONE program did that well enough to use it. I am beginning to think I am going to have to buy a few, read them, and pull what I like about this or that from each of them! I don't think there are enough hours in the day for what I would like to teach them... ;-)

[Julesnpebbles@suddenlink.]

Are these the books you're discussing?

 

Classical Rhetoric

 

Kilgallon

 

Classical Composition

[elegantlion]

Are these the books you're discussing?

 

Classical Rhetoric

 

Kilgallon

 

Classical Composition

 

Yes on the classical rhetoric and classical composition. There are a few different Killgallon books, I'm not sure what everyone is using.

 

There are a couple of 3rd edition of Corbett at amazon for a cheaper price here.

[Mommyfaithe]

Yes on the classical rhetoric and classical composition. There are a few different Killgallon books, I'm not sure what everyone is using.

 

There are a couple of 3rd edition of Corbett at amazon for a cheaper price here.

 

ok...ya got me.....there goes my 30 day simplicity...!!!!!!!!!!! But, I think this falls into my catergories.....it is a BOOK, isn't it???

 

LOL!

 

Anyway, I buy myself books for my own education every summer for what I call "Teacher sabbatical." These are the books I use every summer for my own teaching education. hile my kids are busy with tennis, swim team and lessons, I study...OH JOY!!!!! and get a tan....in between working at my mobile office...gotta love it! :D

 

So, now I get to stalk the UPS guy for ME!!!

 

LOL

Faithe

[elegantlion]

Here's a site I just found with a nice overview of rhetoric. http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/silva.htm