8th grade..if not Algebra

[choirfarm]

You can read my post in the logic stage board to get more info, but if your son isn't a math person...much more of a history, literature kind of person.. how do you do this. He is in 8th and totally frustrated with Algebra.. Ok, maybe he needs to wait, but I was hoping TT would be easier since it is behind Chalkdust.. That way he could do TT Algebra, Geometry and Alg II and be started on TT Precalc before the PSAT... But he starting making C's in Chalkdust Alg and is now making C's in TT and is totally frustrated. I'm not sure where to go..

 

Christine

[regentrude]

Why is he frustrated? I would take a step back and do a very thorough assessment whether he has truly mastered all pre-algebra skills and is proficient in arithmetic with integers AND fractions. Often, algebra problems do not result from the new concepts but from an inadequate preparation (I am not saying this is the case with your son - but that would be my first step to check)

 

Also, I do not see any need to rush to cover precalculus before the PSAT. Even on the SAT there is just algebra and a bit of geometry, isn't there?

[mcconnellboys]

Maybe he needs some more work in pre-algebra skills? Why not work through some of the Key to.... books on specific areas (or even their algebra books)? Or perhaps other pre-algebra level books, of which there are several....

[clementine]

How about doing Pre-Algebra in 8th? My daughter took that in 7th and is doing Algebra 1 in 8th, but all of the schools around us do Algebra 1 in 9th.

[AngieW in Texas]

I would look at Kinetic Books Prealgebra. They have a 30-day money-back guarantee for the hs version ($50) or you can get the regular version for just $35 (but no money-back guarantee). The program is either online subscription or a cd-rom that can be installed just once and times out after one year.

[kiana]

When he loses points, are the errors more arithmetical or algebraic in nature?

 

If arithmetical, I'd step back and work more on pre-algebra and especially fractions.

 

If algebraic, I'd slow down and use something like the key to algebra, call it pre-algebra, then do algebra for real in 9th.

[PollyOR]

My daughter seemed bored, so I tried to start her in Algebra in 8th grade. We were spinning our wheels. I wish we had waited.

 

A couple of resources we've found helpful:

Key to Algebra (including their online service)

The Teaching Company's Algebra 1 course (awesome!)

 

Good luck finding what works!

[choirfarm]

Why is he frustrated? I would take a step back and do a very thorough assessment whether he has truly mastered all pre-algebra skills and is proficient in arithmetic with integers AND fractions. Often, algebra problems do not result from the new concepts but from an inadequate preparation (I am not saying this is the case with your son - but that would be my first step to check)

 

Also, I do not see any need to rush to cover precalculus before the PSAT. Even on the SAT there is just algebra and a bit of geometry, isn't there?

 

How should I do that? He did Chalkdust PreAlgebra last year. For TT he misses some of the true false :confused: One common mistake I see is in a problem like 3(1-2x) that is imbedded into a big problem he will write 3 -2x as he simplifies it. Now whenever he goes back to correct problems, then he will catch it. Also, he can't do word problems at all. We did the Key to books a long time ago, but they cater to one of the problems I see. If you give him a pattern of problems, then sure he can do them. You mix them up and he can't. So he doesn't REALLY undestand how to tackle them. I mean he did the entire set of Key to Fractions, then I gave him a set of problems to do with various types and he couldn't. ( That was in 5th or 6th grade... now he can.) One thing is he expects to just look at a problem and to be able to figure it out. I've had to fight tooth and nail to get him to show his work, finally he is. That is how I've figured out his mistakes. (Same problems with math in Apologia Physical Science.. he can handle all the nonmath problems really well. ) If you don't show your work, I can't give partial credit. Hand back, redo. Hand back, redo.

 

So.. I've considered maybe ALEXS?? Or the other thing is that he has to take the THEA in order to take Spanish next year. The reading section is pretty easy for him. The math... Well, I bought a test prep book and I thought we could just go through the math prep section as his math. It will go over basic skills. Then after he has gone through all of the problems that teach the skills on it with the practice problems, I can give him the practice test and then focus on whatever he messes up on??

 

I'm just not sure what to do for the rest of the year for math. I'm not sure how to diagnose and see if it is really math understanding or just carelessness and 13year old fog as he has been growing an inch a month lately. He is almost as tall as his 6 foot dad now!

 

Christine

 

Here are a couple of things I've considered.

[Jane in NC]

How do you do math? Is he on his own? Do you sit next to him and work through problems with him?

 

Some students (especially young teens) will do better work at a white board. It is as though their whole body is solving the problem.

 

I would suggest some intensive math sessions together. This might help with your diagnosis.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

How do you do math? Is he on his own? Do you sit next to him and work through problems with him?

 

Some students (especially young teens) will do better work at a white board. It is as though their whole body is solving the problem.

.

:iagree: DS makes silly mistakes when he uses paper and pencil. Every problem on the white board is correct. Some days I allow him to do the entire assignment on the white board.

[Teachin'Mine]

Christine I would drop the algebra until next year. This year, I'd work on getting the pre-algebra really down pat with a good text. He'll approach algebra next year with a fresh start. :)

[Nan in Mass]

My older one is a non-math person. I found that he didn't get far unless I did the math with him to keep wrong ideas from creeping in and causing problems down the line, make sure he understood the big-picture, and make sure he approached the math from an applied point of view.

 

If left to do math on his own, he found all sorts of patterns that were false patterns. He'd decide that because a something happened consistently in the example problems, it must be a rule and always work that way. Some of these things were indeed things that he was supposed to notice and make rules, but some of them weren't at all what the author intended. (rueful laugh) I concluded that my children must be more inventive than other children. I think this is also why they have trouble with things like multiple choice and true/false - they can think of circumstances in which any of the answers might be correct.

 

I figured out the big picture part when we tried Saxon. Saxon didn't work because it chopped the math up into tiny pieces. My son could do the pieces very nicely, so it looked like he was doing well in math, but when he had to do math outside of Saxon, either in real life or in science, he did horribly because he wasn't able to stick all those nice little steps together into a big picture of how math works and apply the math. We switched math curriculums to one which taught one concept per lesson instead of three, and kept adding to that topic for the rest of the week. That helped, but I still had to keep reminding him how the this bit of math fit into the whole thing. For example, when we did the lesson on the quadratic formula, I reminded him that the quadratic formula is just completing the square, and that we now had several ways of dealing with quadratic equations - juggling and taking the square root of both sides, special rules, factoring, completing the square, and plugging everything into the quadratic equation. I also kept telling him how this would be used, both in real life and for solving problems. Sometimes it would be as simple as saying, "So if you were building a roof and you were figuring out the stress on one of the struts in order to decide whether you could use an ordinary wooden beam or you had to use a laminated beam, you might come up with a formula that looked like this and have to solve it. The books we used were good about having word problems in every chapter. I assigned them, even though they took ages to do.

 

Another reason I had to do the math with him was that I couldn't help him when he got stuck if he didn't. My math is really rusty, and I don't remember the vocabulary so even when I do remember how to do something, I can't necessarily follow the directions in the book.

 

"Doing the math with him" consisted of sitting down with the book between us, reading the chapter allowed adding my own comments, and WRITING OUT THE EXAMPLE PROBLEMS, talking while I did it. Just pointing to them didn't work. I don't know why. It just didn't. This is a big reason why I couldn't just give my son the book. He is a good reader. He should have been able to read the lesson and then solve the problems. He couldn't. Even my good-at-math one can't. I am now, at 16yo, teaching him how to do this. I thought there was something wrong with my children until I remembered that even in college, somebody read me the chapter (lectured) and wrote out the example problems LOL. I didn't read the math book - I only read the boxes. Occasionally, I would look at how an example problem was solved. That made me decide that it was ok if my boys weren't able to do math on their own. Yes, it would be nice if they could, but I guess if they can't they are just normal. As I read, I can ask them if they understood that bit. If they say no, I try explaining in my own words (not hard because I just read the material). I ask if they remember things. For example, if the book says remove the rationalize radical, I can ask if they remember what a radicals are and what rational means. If I suspect they don't understand, I can make them resolve the example problem while I watch. As I watch them solve the problems, I can catch any misunderstandings and keep them from snowballing into a huge tangled mass. I can point out careless errors that they consistantly make. I can keep them from skipping steps. I can make them draw a picture, write down their givens, write down what they are looking for, and write down anything they know about how those are related when they solve a word problem. They love to skip steps and then tell me they couldn't solve the problem. I can give hints. I can make sure they work vertically and don't write equal signs where there shouldn't be equal signs and circle their answers. And really important, I can keep reminding them of how this little skill is connected to the bigger things they might want to do with this math. Even though I am no math teacher, I can do this. I think these little things are the things that make the difference between mine failing on their own and mine succeeding when I work with them.

 

I hate to say so, but I don't think any particular math curriculum is going to fix your problem. I think you just plain have to read the chapters to him, write out all the example problems talking while you do it, ask if he remembers things, solve extra problems if it is something difficult, watch him solve problems like the example problems. It sounds like he has had solid basics, so I suspect backing up won't help. It sounds like he needs encouragement to think about the math and apply it, not just blindly follow the steps. I think the only way to do that is to work with him and talk to him, make him talk to you, and point out the connections. It takes time, which I am sure is very precious to you at the moment, and working with 13yo boys without annoying them isn't easy. Whiteboards are nice, even the little $20 ones meant to be hung on doors for messages. You can hold them on your lap or lay them flat on a table. Big ones that allow you to do your math on your feet and write big are very nice but expensive. My boys, too, have found that whiteboards help them think.

 

Hope something in all this is helpful,

Nan

[EKS]

Have you sat with him and figured out exactly what is tripping him up? I would watch the lectures with him and have him do the practice problems in your presence so that you can see what is giving him trouble. I would require him to write out *all* steps when doing the problem sets. Then every day, you should go over those problem sets with a fine toothed comb and for every problem he gets wrong you need to find where he is having trouble. It could be that he is making careless mistakes in arithmetic, dropping or flipping signs, that sort of thing, or it could be that he is having trouble understanding the concepts. By carefully monitoring him and his work, you will be able to determine what is wrong and then make a plan to fix it.

[choirfarm]

Ok guys.. this is the one I have a difficult relationship with. He thinks I am the stupidest one on the planet right now. He thinks math is dumb. He gets mad at the drop of the hat when I try to talk to him. I've tried to have him sit down beside me and he HATE HATE HATES it..

 

Christine

[Jane in NC]

Ok guys.. this is the one I have a difficult relationship with. He thinks I am the stupidest one on the planet right now. He thinks math is dumb. He gets mad at the drop of the hat when I try to talk to him. I've tried to have him sit down beside me and he HATE HATE HATES it..

 

Christine

 

Could you ask him to read Nan's post? Maybe if he hears that other students succeed with Mom sitting next to them, it will help.

[Nan in Mass]

Mine hates it, too. Sigh. I know. This is really, really hard. I usually will do almost anything to avoid issuing ultimatums because they usually just make the situation worse somehow, but this is one place that I have. I just tell mine that unless they can get their math all right all by themselves, they have to work with me. I let them try every so often, but so far, nobody has been able to do it for more than a lesson or two in a row. By now, mine know that math is not a negotiable subject and that if they can't learn the math at home, they have to go to school and do it there. I've only said that a few times, but they know it. Mine don't want to go to school so this works. So I guess what I am saying is that you make a deal with him, let him fail, and then you work with him, reminding him that this was the agreement (sympathetically) when necessary. I overlook explosions when the frustration is directed at themselves and try to just keep going. I try not to let them distract me by getting me into arguments about why they have to do math in the first place. I just keep saying that I have already told them that and now lets look at this example problem. It is hard work and makes me very tired. I try to put math at the calmest time of day, when he isn't hungry, when he isn't distracted, when he isn't tired, and I try to put something fun and independent afterwards.

 

-nan

[regentrude]

Mine hates it, too. Sigh. I know. This is really, really hard. I usually will do almost anything to avoid issuing ultimatums because they usually just make the situation worse somehow, but this is one place that I have. I just tell mine that unless they can get their math all right all by themselves, they have to work with me. I let them try every so often, but so far, nobody has been able to do it for more than a lesson or two in a row. By now, mine know that math is not a negotiable subject and that if they can't learn the math at home, they have to go to school and do it there. I've only said that a few times, but they know it. Mine don't want to go to school so this works. So I guess what I am saying is that you make a deal with him, let him fail, and then you work with him, reminding him that this was the agreement (sympathetically) when necessary.

 

:iagree: It is too important. He has to do it. If he can't do it by himself, he must do it with you - whether he hates it or not.

 

The only alternative I can think of would be outsourcing math and finding somebody to tutor him - a college student maybe, or a sibling, or another homeschooler.

Or would it be an option for your family if he did math with his father?

[Nan in Mass]

If you are going to do this, perhaps you should let me know so we can make a new post, with you tactfully phrasing the question and me tactfully answering it, perhaps rewording a few things here and there so as not to insult him or make it sound like you were complaining about him? We can delete whatever posts here you would rather he didn't read. That way, he can save face.

-Nan

[choirfarm]

I hate to say so, but I don't think any particular math curriculum is going to fix your problem. I think you just plain have to read the chapters to him, write out all the example problems talking while you do it, ask if he remembers things, solve extra problems if it is something difficult, watch him solve problems like the example problems. It sounds like he has had solid basics, so I suspect backing up won't help. It sounds like he needs encouragement to think about the math and apply it, not just blindly follow the steps. I think the only way to do that is to work with him and talk to him, make him talk to you, and point out the connections. It takes time, which I am sure is very precious to you at the moment, and working with 13yo boys without annoying them isn't easy. Whiteboards are nice, even the little $20 ones meant to be hung on doors for messages. You can hold them on your lap or lay them flat on a table. Big ones that allow you to do your math on your feet and write big are very nice but expensive. My boys, too, have found that whiteboards help them think.

 

Hope something in all this is helpful,

Nan

 

Oh, yes I have a white board. I used it a lot when they were younger and still use it with my 3rd grader. I bolded exactly what I agree with. But this is the child that knows how to push my buttons. It is much better this year, but he is the typical 13yo know it all that I hated as a teacher. I really wished he would go to public high school next year as I sort of would like some other boys and teachers to bring him down a peg if you know what I mean. He can finish school so quickly and then just picks on his little sister. Well, plays with her but then he gets mad that she is so babyish.. MMM.. You will be 14 in a couple of weeks and she just turned 9 and she is a GIRL!!! I wish he had an outside activity other than piano and church. But I don't know how we would fit that in as it is. Right now I'm currently helping take care of my husband's 99 year old grandmother. I have to run to the nursing home this morning to take care of some things this morning. I already spend so much time with TOG discussion, going over science with him, having to sit by him while he writes ( because who needs to write in real life...writing is stupid!) UGGG.. Oh well, at least my 16 year old is independent and my 3rd grader is a lot better.

 

Oh.. about the white board. I remember several years ago... I can't remember what curriculum we were using for math. But he would sit by the window with the white board and open it just a crack so that the 4 dogs would sit by the window. He would then do his problems on the white board explaining to them what he was doing. It was so cute. I wonder if he might try that again??? Maybe he could explain it to me. It just seems like one or two comments from me sets him off. My other two are not like this. But he gets a look in his eyes and I can tell that I can talk until I'm blue in the face and he won't hear. A guy from Heartlight talked about asking questions and talking a lot less and listening more and that has helped a lot with this particular kid. His dad is MUCH better with him than I am and he treats me much better when his dad is around as his dad won't put up with even under the breath comments. I didn't either, but I got so tired of him always being in trouble and feeling like the bad sheep of the family ( so he told other people) and that my oldest is the perfect child.. Sigh...

 

Christine

[Nan in Mass]

I know. 13-15 can be so hard. Some of them really beat on their mothers. Hugs.

-Nan