Letting go of MCT?

[plain jane]

I'm thinking of dropping MCT next year. :crying: Not because we don't love it and it's not working for us, but because, well, I'm running out of time each day. :001_unsure:

 

We're doing both MCT and R&S this year (though not both on the same day). It's not overkill and I found MCT didn't do so well for my dd as a stand alone program. She much prefers MCT to R&S but reality is R&S gets done because it's quicker and requires less of my time. MCT is just too one on one, which I love, but, reality is, I won't have that much of my time to give each day when I will have 3 in school next year.

 

Thing is, I don't wanna let go of MCT. We only got through Island level and I've heard such great things about Town and beyond. But I worry that I'm going to spend all that money and it will just sit on the shelf. If I'm honest with myself, a large part of the reason I want to continue with MCT is because the writing portion interests me. Is there a way to use it just for the writing portion? Which book(s) would I need?

 

Or maybe I just need someone to tell me it's going to be okay and our homeschool world won't implode if I simply drop it altogether. :w00t: Ack! Did I just say that out loud?? :svengo:

 

It's hard for me to accept that I simply can't do all that I want to do because there are others who need me besides my oldest. I struggle with this daily. :chillpill:

[patchfire]

I could have written this post, except we've done through Voyage level, and I just don't think we'll have the time for it, either of us. Dd enjoys MCT but her true love & gift is math, followed by science, so naturally that's what she wants to spend more time doing. And I can't devote so much of my face-to-face teaching time to grammar and vocabulary that, frankly, she can get through a workbook.

 

So, no, I don't think your homeschool world will implode... or if it does, mine will be imploding also!

[Dawn E]

It's okay, and your homeschool world won't implode. :001_smile:

 

I had almost given up on MCT, too, until I heard him talk. Then I decided I wanted to find a way to make it work. My original plan had been to wait until middle school, but I've decided to move into Town. I have used Grammar Island in a supplemental way...taking a break from our regular LA program to read the grammar book, restarting the original LA when finished adding in Practice Island and the other supplemental books. We have not done Sentence Grammar, though. I plan to start on it now and finish, though we likely will not use it in its entirety. Next year I am planning to let MCT take a front-burner position while continuing R&S alongside it. We are currently using R&S and we do most of it orally or on the white board. I add in the worksheets and tests. I don't think this will be a time overkill next year with Town. My dd would do MCT all day if I let her, but I try to keep it in manageable chunks.

 

Could you perhaps modify how you are doing your R&S lessons so they are still effective yet less time-consuming? Again, you'll be completely fine if you ditch MCT altogether or wait a few years to add it in...

 

I'm curious about how much time you are spending on the two together right now. Are you counting the time with all the supplements? I know they are all LA, but I would be using something else for vocab, poetry and writing anyway. I don't plan on doing the vocab and poetry daily, and I'm currently planning to use the writing portion mainly as grammar reinforcement.

Edited March 10, 2011 by Dawn E

[plain jane]

I think using the writing alone would be fine.

 

Would I only need the Paragraph Town book?

[JudoMom]

Your homeschool won't implode (I don't think....I've never used MCT so I don't have any first hand knowledge that your hs won't implode, but I'm making an educated guess ;)).

 

I feel this exact same way about Latin Prep. I love LP. My boys love LP. But I just don't have time to correct their work and make sure they're getting it, so I ordered Latin Alive.

[Dawn E]

I accessed this post from the main index and didn't realize this was on the logic board...I feel like a jr. high girl trying to give advice to high schoolers.

 

One thing that is difficult about MCT is that the time you put into it is completely teacher intensive...which makes using it difficult when you have multiples. Ds is 3 this year (was 2 when we began MCT last school year) and that made things very difficult.

 

The MCT literature series is scheduled to be available soon. It looks far less teacher intensive. Perhaps that would be a good way also to keep the MCT flair in.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'm not an MCT user (although I admit the temptation for the Poetry in particular does cross my mind), but I can share what I've learned over the past couple of years while trying to figure out how to get it all in of middle and high school.

 

My solution: Semester classes. Logic, for example. While in my perfect world, we'd have time for tons and tons of logic, but truth be told, we don't. So instead of dropping it, we choose to complete it one semester. This opens an entire slot in our schedule for other choices.

 

If you can get past the "has to be an entire school year" mentality, it is actually very freeing and allows for more exploration in your school year. I never thought I'd be able to say this, but sooner than later, my high school will have a whole semester without science. He'll more than make up for it with a community college class the following semester, but there is no need to take it all year, when he'll get the info. and the credit in an area he will not major in. This actually allows more room for math, which will be his general direction. For some reason, I was willing to consider this method for high school, but not middle school. One day, I decided, why not? So, I can hold on to my beloved parts, then add in the other things we need.

 

You can do it! Keep MCT, but spend a semester on one thing, then fill in the blank for the next semester. Perhaps you can spend a semester on writing, then spend the next on application of those skills through history and science, so you can fit in logic or latin, etc.

[Spock]

I'm thinking of dropping MCT next year. :crying: Not because we don't love it and it's not working for us, but because, well, I'm running out of time each day. :001_unsure:

:svengo:

 

It's hard for me to accept that I simply can't do all that I want to do because there are others who need me besides my oldest. I struggle with this daily. :chillpill:

 

 

I have similar problems---my children and I love MCT, but they need different levels and there just isn't time in the day to do 2 levels of MCT. Also, there are things that RS covers that MCT doesn't that I think they need.

 

What I have decided to do is alternate years--using RS some years, and MCT other years. This gives the best of both options, and also allows me to try to stagger it so I don't have 2 in MCT at the same time.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Tina,

 

Could you elaborate? Using grammar as the example, would you fit a whole year of MCT lessons into a semester? So instead of doing MCT for 30 minutes a day for 180 days and R&S for 30 minutes a day for 180 days you would do MCT for 60 minutes for only 90 days and then R&S for 60 minutes a day for 90 days. Am I understanding that correctly? What do find is the benefit of doing it that way vs. just doing each for a less amount of time each day but throughout the whole year.

 

I have considered this in the past but couldn't wrap my brain around what the benefit would be. Share please.:D

[johnandtinagilbert]

Tina,

 

Could you elaborate? Using grammar as the example, would you fit a whole year of MCT lessons into a semester? So instead of doing MCT for 30 minutes a day for 180 days and R&S for 30 minutes a day for 180 days you would do MCT for 60 minutes for only 90 days and then R&S for 60 minutes a day for 90 days. Am I understanding that correctly? What do find is the benefit of doing it that way vs. just doing each for a less amount of time each day but throughout the whole year.

 

I have considered this in the past but couldn't wrap my brain around what the benefit would be. Share please.:D

Sure, Aimee.

I have found that we can eliminate some daily review if we combine 2 assignments. So, we are doubling up sometimes, but also able to eliminate redundancy this way. R&S fits into this perfectly. You could eliminate some of the Review and Practice, even some of the written exercises. Since R&S staff builds from day to day, you can reduce the number of problems if you chose. So, you can spend say 45-60 for 90 days. To balance out, you simply make sure you focus in application the grammar skills. In writing, for example, look for patterns of error and point out the grammatical aspects. This puts all the R&S into practice, so you still get grammar practice, you're just being sure to instruct through writing. You can choose a skill of the month, even, and be sure to note it simply in the month's writing assignments.

 

Then, for the next semester, you double on and have a language arts focus on MCT.

 

The other thing we do, and it really depends on content of each material or subject, is complete double time. So, yes, to your example. Instead of 30 minutes a day, you will do 60. The time spent is essentially the same (with some mild variance), you just change the approach.

 

Finally, if something is just so lengthy and there is not opportunity to cut it down, sometimes, you just accept that 2 semesters of Logic is sufficient, so instead of completing all of Fallacy Detectives (just an arbitrary example) in one year, you decide to mix it up and teach Fallacy Detectives every fall for 2 years and give some variety to the school year by also teaching Poetry (from MCT :D) for 2 semesters. Each way, you insert application of the skills learned in your writing or research assignments so you still get some practice, you just reduce the "new" instruction, unless it's organic.

 

I hope I'm making sense. I feel like I'm not being very clear (my house is really loud right now :svengo:)

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

I hope I'm making sense. I feel like I'm not being very clear (my house is really loud right now :svengo:)

 

Perfect sense Tina. Thank you. I do see what you are saying and can now see the benefit of that.

[Testimony]

Sure, Aimee.

I have found that we can eliminate some daily review if we combine 2 assignments. So, we are doubling up sometimes, but also able to eliminate redundancy this way. R&S fits into this perfectly. You could eliminate some of the Review and Practice, even some of the written exercises. Since R&S staff builds from day to day, you can reduce the number of problems if you chose. So, you can spend say 45-60 for 90 days. To balance out, you simply make sure you focus in application the grammar skills. In writing, for example, look for patterns of error and point out the grammatical aspects. This puts all the R&S into practice, so you still get grammar practice, you're just being sure to instruct through writing. You can choose a skill of the month, even, and be sure to note it simply in the month's writing assignments.

 

Then, for the next semester, you double on and have a language arts focus on MCT.

 

The other thing we do, and it really depends on content of each material or subject, is complete double time. So, yes, to your example. Instead of 30 minutes a day, you will do 60. The time spent is essentially the same (with some mild variance), you just change the approach.

 

Finally, if something is just so lengthy and there is not opportunity to cut it down, sometimes, you just accept that 2 semesters of Logic is sufficient, so instead of completing all of Fallacy Detectives (just an arbitrary example) in one year, you decide to mix it up and teach Fallacy Detectives every fall for 2 years and give some variety to the school year by also teaching Poetry (from MCT :D) for 2 semesters. Each way, you insert application of the skills learned in your writing or research assignments so you still get some practice, you just reduce the "new" instruction, unless it's organic.

 

I hope I'm making sense. I feel like I'm not being very clear (my house is really loud right now :svengo:)

 

For Rod & Staff, can you cram over 130 lessons in 90 days?

 

I did that with Story of the World. I have done it with science and history. I have never tried it with writing and grammar. What a great idea! I just wanted to know how you figure out so many lessons in 3 months?

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[5LittleMonkeys]

For Rod & Staff, can you cram over 130 lessons in 90 days?

 

 

 

I think, in my situation, it might depend on which dc you are talking about and whether you would be following it with another grammar program or if you were going to switch to a completely different subject.

 

I'm not sure if dd11 could or not. She might be able to if it was followed by another study of grammar (such as MCT) but definitely not if it was a different subject. Now, dd13 could learn\retain even if the second semester was a separate subject, but I would still want to re-enforce what she learned in the first semester through her writing (as Tina mentioned).

[johnandtinagilbert]

For Rod & Staff, can you cram over 130 lessons in 90 days?

 

I did that with Story of the World. I have done it with science and history. I have never tried it with writing and grammar. What a great idea! I just wanted to know how you figure out so many lessons in 3 months?

 

Blessings,

Karen

www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

Sure. I'd plan on 2 lessons per school day, and probably assign the 3rd problem on both pages. I'd begin with instruction for 2 days. You'll spend less time on the Oral Review. R&S builds so much in their lessons, that the little addition of day 2 usually can fit in one day, i.e. your dc may likely be able to handle steps 1 & 2 of adverbs in one day b/c they'll have to use skill 1 to get to skill 2. I would most likely look at each lesson and circle the ones I wanted done with pencil, avoiding some repetition, and ensuring they got descent review through Review and Practice Exercises. You also save time on Oral/Class exercises b/c you won't do 10 from skill 1 and 10 from skill 2. You can just do the 10 from skill 2 b/c of the relationship.

 

If you break up the 8 parts of speech into bi or tri-weekly chunks, you can hit them all as a second round, but not do practice exercises with them outside the scope of writing. I find the application of skills learned in grammar makes for deeper roots in understanding, easier home schooling, and also more organic learning.

 

One semester, you may choose to focus on adverbs for 2 weeks. Assign x number of adverbs in the writing (for example, "In this paragraph, you must use 5 adverbs. Three of them must not end in -ly) and have them circle all the adverbs in the writing drafts with green pencil (any color would do, of course). As you edit the paper with them present, you ask which questions those adverbs answer. If they don't remember, just pull out the R&S and have them read the lesson on adverbs before or after the writing assignment as a refresher. That's what, 5 minutes of reading before starting the writing assignment and maybe 8 minutes of circling. To be honest, Write Shop does this for me :) and has proven to me how using writing as the grammar tool can work (a very CM idea).

 

 

For the student, not having another "subject" on their list of things to do also encourages, not exasperates. It also prepares them for high school, where depth increases and number of subject areas decreases or combines with much more application. In high school, comprehension and analysis become evident through writing and projects or discussions, as opposed to repetitive exercises (other than math, anyways). At least that is the experience I'm having around here. It's pretty cool to get past grammar and middle school and see the fruits of labor. You realize how you can or could have done some things differently and still meet the goal. I am finding that with the second lot, application of grammar is just as important and a better tool than I originally summized. I feel like we're doing higher level work at younger ages, comprehending more, but not working as hard. Hindsight is a beautiful thing.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I think, in my situation, it might depend on which dc you are talking about and whether you would be following it with another grammar program or if you were going to switch to a completely different subject.

 

I'm not sure if dd11 could or not. She might be able to if it was followed by another study of grammar (such as MCT) but definitely not if it was a different subject. Now, dd13 could learn\retain even if the second semester was a separate subject, but I would still want to re-enforce what she learned in the first semester through her writing (as Tina mentioned).

:iagree: It will depend on the dc. I am also finding it will depend on the subject matter, as well. I seem to be able to cram math down the throats and from all directions for some of my students, but for others, we have to go s.l.o.w.l.y. to comprehend. The same applies for language arts, but usually in the opposite children!

[Ali in OR]

The MCT literature series is scheduled to be available soon. It looks far less teacher intensive. Perhaps that would be a good way also to keep the MCT flair in.

 

This is very exciting news (and the first I have heard of it). I just read MCT's Classics in the Classroom and have been thinking about how to do literature the way it sounds like he does. I'll be looking forward to whatever he comes up with! Have you actually seen what he is working on?

[seewah]

The MCT literature series is scheduled to be available soon. It looks far less teacher intensive.

 

Any idea when this will be out ... or when samples will go up online? I am a member of the MCT homeschool forum and I haven't seen any "new" news about this in the last week or two. I seem to remember something being mentioned about it being released sometime near the Valley Forge event?

 

Thanks for any news you might have! :)

[kokotg]

I'm a little panicky at the thought of next year, because I'll have two doing MCT for the first time (one Island, one Voyage). We're sticking with it because it's my thing (pre-kid I was working on a phD in English) and it's something I enjoy spending time on...finding a way to fit it in is another matter. Part of what I'll probably do is farm out math with my oldest to DH (who's a math teacher. We complete each other, academically speaking :)). But I get it. I gave up on Right Start math after less than a full year because I was going insane spending so much time on it. There are only so many hours in the day.

[patchfire]

We complete each other, academically speaking :)

 

Y'all are adorable, non-academically speaking too. ;)

[HappyGrace]

I've done R+S English 5 this yr similar to how Tina described. We doubled up on lessons, did it mostly orally (using whiteboard for some), did the Oral section on one day, and then went back the next day and did the written section from that same lesson orally together as a review (not all problems) before starting the day's lessons. And we use other writing curric so skipped the writing portions.

 

This worked out GREAT and allowed us time to add in extra writing, which was our focus this year. And dd11 picks up grammar very quickly and has seen most of these concepts before in Latin or grammar, so really just needed a refresher and has never done diagramming so I wanted to get that in.

 

We really telescoped it down. I almost always do that with curric though. :)

 

We did Town last yr and I have loved using different approaches to grammar. I think it really helps with application.

 

ETA: Oh, I know the other thing I was going to say-there is a LOT of overlap between levels in MCT in grammar. So it's not like you are missing a totally new approach or tons of new information if you don't do the next level. (at least this is what I see with Town and Voyage levels, not sure about Island.)

Edited May 12, 2011 by HappyGrace

[swimmermom3]

I'm thinking of dropping MCT next year. :crying: Not because we don't love it and it's not working for us, but because, well, I'm running out of time each day. :001_unsure:

 

We're doing both MCT and R&S this year (though not both on the same day). It's not overkill and I found MCT didn't do so well for my dd as a stand alone program. She much prefers MCT to R&S but reality is R&S gets done because it's quicker and requires less of my time. MCT is just too one on one, which I love, but, reality is, I won't have that much of my time to give each day when I will have 3 in school next year.

 

Thing is, I don't wanna let go of MCT. We only got through Island level and I've heard such great things about Town and beyond. But I worry that I'm going to spend all that money and it will just sit on the shelf. If I'm honest with myself, a large part of the reason I want to continue with MCT is because the writing portion interests me. Is there a way to use it just for the writing portion? Which book(s) would I need?

 

Or maybe I just need someone to tell me it's going to be okay and our homeschool world won't implode if I simply drop it altogether. :w00t: Ack! Did I just say that out loud?? :svengo:

 

It's hard for me to accept that I simply can't do all that I want to do because there are others who need me besides my oldest. I struggle with this daily. :chillpill:

 

Theoretically speaking, you are supposed to finish the lower level grammar books in something like 2 months and then that leaves you the rest of the year to do vocabulary, practice, and writing. Notice that I said "theoretically." :D

 

This year, we hit the wall about a third of the way through the Word Within the Word, Level 1 series. The vocabulary was killing us off in terms of time. Every subject this year required me to be hands-on with Swimmer Dude and that just wasn't working. I changed the vocabulary and grammar programs to self-taught ones. Our world hasn't imploded but ds is really unhappy about the loss of MCT for grammar. We will pick it up again next year.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I'm a little panicky at the thought of next year, because I'll have two doing MCT for the first time (one Island, one Voyage). We're sticking with it because it's my thing (pre-kid I was working on a phD in English) and it's something I enjoy spending time on...finding a way to fit it in is another matter. Part of what I'll probably do is farm out math with my oldest to DH (who's a math teacher. We complete each other, academically speaking :)). But I get it. I gave up on Right Start math after less than a full year because I was going insane spending so much time on it. There are only so many hours in the day.

First of all...awwww....I can hear Jerry Maguire..."You complete me" yet I see visions of flowy skirts, poetry, calculators and pocket protectors...sounds VERY dreamy! :001_wub:

 

You are so right about so many hours in the day. I've learned this the hard way. It's funny, but since I decided to still do history and science with the Little League, but FOCUS on math and language arts, I am so much happier as a teacher and I feel like the 2nd lot has found many benefits that the first didn't get; not that the 1st lot isn't doing well now, but life is just easier the second time around. Lessons learned and all that....keep the LA and math focus is my point, you'll find that later, it will be the most important part of your journey. By the time Logic stage comes around, as you see from this thread, time needs to be spent otherwise, and you won't regret the time and effort you spent in grammar stage.

[rachel_rfwp]

Adding a note from Royal Fireworks Press, publisher of MCT:

 

We sympathize with those who feel overwhelmed, and want to emphasize that MCT's books can work as stand-alones. Even though they work best together as a full curriculum, you do not need to feel that you have to be exclusive, or that you have to work through every book in the program at each level. So if you want you can just use the writing, or the grammar, or the vocabulary, or the poetics to supplement other programs. But most people prefer to use them as part of the MCTLA Curriculum.

 

As for the literature strand: the first trilogy should be ready at the end of June, if not before. The books are: Wind in the Willows, Peter Pan and Alice in Wonderland.

 

Best wishes to all.

Edited May 16, 2011 by rachel_rfwp
some clarification!

[Jennefer@SSA]

Adding a note from Royal Fireworks Press, publisher of MCT:

 

We sympathize with those who feel overwhelmed, and want to emphasize that every one of MCT's books can work as stand-alones. Even though they do work together as a curriculum, you do not need to feel that you have to be exclusive, or that you have to work through every book in the program at each level. So if you just want the writing, or the grammar, or the vocabulary, or the poetics to supplement other programs, that's fine.

And you do not need to have done all the previous levels before starting later ones with older children.

 

As for the literature strand: the first level should be ready at the end of June, if not before. The books are: Wind in the Willows, Peter Pan and Alice in Wonderland.

 

Best wishes to all.

 

So glad to see this quote. I just ordered CE I for ds 10 next year and one of my concerns was that we wouldn't get the full benefit of it using it alone with no other MCT materials. I was told by others that is would be just fine alone but it's good to see it formally written out by the publisher. :001_smile:

[KarenNC]

We're probably going to piecemeal MCT for next year. We had the Town level this year, all the books, and I'm finding that we didn't get to the poetry very often at all. Primarily, it's because I don't really understand how to teach it. I had hopes my husband could do that (he was an English major), but that hasn't panned out.

 

I think CE has been the most helpful actual vocabulary program for my daughter, so I will likely continue that. I'm not sure about the Essay Voyage yet. I already have Lightning Lit and Composition for 7th grade, and we will likely be using that.

 

I love Practice Town for grammar, but grammar has always been a big problem here. I don't know that the "front-loading" approach is the most helpful for her. I will say this year has been the most productive overall, but still at sentence 65+ in Practice Town she sometimes acts as if she's never seen or heard of a preposition. :banghead: I'm currently working her through the grammar portion of an old Prentice Hall writing and grammar book to reinforce and give more specific practice before we go back to Practice Town. I'm tempted next year to just get the Practice Voyage books to go along with what we are doing.

 

I really wish I had the funds to have her take an online course using these materials.

[Lovin Learnin]

We're probably going to piecemeal MCT for next year. We had the Town level this year, all the books, and I'm finding that we didn't get to the poetry very often at all. Primarily, it's because I don't really understand how to teach it. I had hopes my husband could do that (he was an English major), but that hasn't panned out.

 

I think CE has been the most helpful actual vocabulary program for my daughter, so I will likely continue that. I'm not sure about the Essay Voyage yet. I already have Lightning Lit and Composition for 7th grade, and we will likely be using that.

 

I love Practice Town for grammar, but grammar has always been a big problem here. I don't know that the "front-loading" approach is the most helpful for her. I will say this year has been the most productive overall, but still at sentence 65+ in Practice Town she sometimes acts as if she's never seen or heard of a preposition. :banghead:

 

Wow! I could have written this word for word. I've already decided not to get the poetry book for next year since we barely did it at all this year. Love CE so we'll definitely continue with that, and I just bought Lightning Lit 7. My father (a former college English prof) started teaching her writing with WriteShop so we'll continue using that next year making Essay Voyage unnecessary. But I'm intrigued by your comment about your dd hitting a wall with prepositions at about sentence 65 of Town. My dd did the exact same thing, making me wonder if there is something to that. In the end I've decided to take at least a year off of MCT and try R&S English next year for grammar.

[KarenNC]

Wow! I could have written this word for word. I've already decided not to get the poetry book for next year since we barely did it at all this year. Love CE so we'll definitely continue with that, and I just bought Lightning Lit 7. My father (a former college English prof) started teaching her writing with WriteShop so we'll continue using that next year making Essay Voyage unnecessary. But I'm intrigued by your comment about your dd hitting a wall with prepositions at about sentence 65 of Town. My dd did the exact same thing, making me wonder if there is something to that. In the end I've decided to take at least a year off of MCT and try R&S English next year for grammar.

 

Maybe it has something to do with 10 year olds, since mine is 10 as well. :) She reads and comprehends at a very high level and has fantastic spelling and vocabulary, and can write well done stories (when she wants to do so), but she has consistently tested at several grades lower in the mechanics (grammar, punctuation, capitalization) than in any other area of language arts. It's incredibly frustrating to have worked through all sorts of programs (FLL, GWG, etc) and it is always as if I'm speaking not only a foreign, but an alien, language when I ask her to identify a pronoun or a preposition if we haven't literally covered it yesterday. We've only been going over these concepts for *5 years.* I honestly think the fault lies within in her, not the program. MCT has done better than most at getting some retention.