Laurie4b Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) If someone had said that to me when I was in a suicidal fog, that would have been the final nail in the coffin. I already felt so unworthy of life that this would have been the final blow to my self esteem. I strongly agree with the bolded. If I had not been homeschooling my children, I would not be here today. It was hearing my children's voices that pulled me from the brink. Had they been in school that day, I may very well have actuated a plan. Just clarifying: I would not say to a person struggling with suicidal thoughts that they were selfish and cruel: I would appeal to love. However, in a general discussion of suicide, I do indeed think that it is appropriate to say that it is one of the cruelest acts a person can do . It takes the amount of pain experienced by the suicidal person, multiplies it by everyone who loves (or even likes) them, and divides it up as a parting bequest for them to deal with for better or worse. It's no accident that children of parents who commit suicide are more likely to follow in their steps. So people who commit suicide have either deluded themselves into thinking it isn't true that their loved ones will experience excrutiating pain, or choose to do it anyway (a lot choose this option on purpose as revenge.) I am really clear with my kids, for instance in the wake of a teen suicide, that this is the impact because especially in the teen years one can not factor other people into account and a teen could do something impulsively. I want them to know the real impact, not a white-washed version of the impact. On the other hand, like yourself, there are many who are in a deep dark hole of horrible pain longing for release and will choose to walk out, and are given the energy to walk out, step by difficult step, because of love for those who love them, because they cannot bear to inflict that kind of pain on those they love. Love triumphs. Edited March 9, 2011 by Laurie4b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 As someone who has been suicidal in the past, hearing someone call suicide selfish is very painful to hear. The place of making that decision is one of unspeakable pain ... an emotional agony so intense that one simply cannot imagine relief. To feel so unworthy of life that you actually believe everyone in your world, including your closest loved ones, would be better off without you ... A person considering suicide needs compassion, not scorn. That person is NOT in their right mind. How is it that we can have compassion for the crotchety Alzheimer's patient, but not a suicidal person? Being suicidal is different from commiting suicide. Of course a suicidal person deserves compassion . A person who was in a state of pain that intense who chooses not to do it for love deserves admiration for the courage it took to endure their pain and walk toward healing for the sake of others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I said I agreed with you. I just want to make sure that you know that I don't equate you with someone that did commit suicide. I don't believe you are cruel or selfish, because you looked beyond yourself and showed yourself to be neither. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbecueMom Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I think when someone is that depressed & they feel compelled to take their own life, they really may believe that their family will be better off without them around. They may really be thinking of the family they are preparing to leave behind, but from such a difficult, unhealthy place that it seems absolutely selfish & illogical to those who haven't been in the same place. I know only one person who committed suicide. There were no close friends or family left behind. I understand his choice, and his death was only part of a tragic, sad situation. I fully believe he is at peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'smom Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have been suicidal at several points in my life (not since I had kids). I remember the first time I realized that other people go through their whole lives not contemplating suicide. I was floored. I felt the doctor was seriously overreacting when I told her- after all, I was there to get meds so I wouldn't want to kill myself. If I had passed that point- I wouldn't have been in her office talking to her! Anyway, every time I got that depressed I wasn't thinking of hurting other people. I did feel that everyone would be better off if I wasn't there. I often thought about how my family (mom, dad, sis, bro) would be perfect if I wasn't there to screw it up. Yeah, they'd be sad for a little while, but then they could move on instead of having me dragging them down all the time. When a person has a terminal illness like cancer and decides not to fight, people don't call them cruel and selfish. Mental illness can be just as debillitating and, sometimes, terminal. If you haven't been there, you can't imagine the pain that a suicidal person is experiencing. The first time I remember thinking about suicide I was in the 5th grade. I have an illness just like a person with cancer. I am treating it and hopefully I never get back to where I was before. This is really a downer of a post. Sorry about that. As I type this, I'm nursing my beautiful baby girl and I am soooooo thankful that I made it far enough in this life to have her and hope and pray that I never do anything to hurt her. Ok....I'm off to read some happy posts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ecj98 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 The argument doesn't hold water for me. Either Christ's atonement for my sins was good enough or it wasn't. If a believer commits suicide, I fully believe that Christ paid the price for that sin, too. I agree. I know of a friend's father who committed suicide, and she firmly believes (as I think she should) that her father is in heaven since he trusted Christ for his salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrissymama Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I don't think suicide is a selfish or cruel act at all. I can see how it can look that way though. Someone very close to me suffers from severe depression and has been suicidal in the past. One of the biggest components of his depression is feeling guilt for how much he is putting everybody around him through. For him, suicide felt like a gift to his loved ones, ridding them of having to deal with him. Of course, it was completely and totally untrue, everyone around him would have been so completely devastated, but he did not see that. Depression is a mental illness. When people get that deeply depressed, they are not thinking clearly. I am Christian, and I cannot believe that God would punish someone for committing suicide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 A catholic priest who has written many, many articles on suicide and the people who suffer in silence. Here is a link to all his articles. http://www.ronrolheiser.com/columnarchive/?search=suicide&Submit=Search+Archives Gently said but with no apologies. Until you have walked a mile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolally Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 FWIW, we belong to a pretty conservative denomination. A few years ago I attended the funeral of a church member who committed suicide. The cause of her death was discussed at length by the pastor doing the service which was a huge surprise to me. He said, and I don't recall the reason he gave off-hand, that it was a misconception that suicide couldn't be forgiven and that since this woman was 'saved' earlier in life she was in Heaven. I'll try to remember and repost his explanation-- I bet my husband remembers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aubrey Posted March 10, 2011 Author Share Posted March 10, 2011 Just clarifying: I would not say to a person struggling with suicidal thoughts that they were selfish and cruel: I would appeal to love. However, in a general discussion of suicide, I do indeed think that it is appropriate to say that it is one of the cruelest acts a person can do . It takes the amount of pain experienced by the suicidal person, multiplies it by everyone who loves (or even likes) them, and divides it up as a parting bequest for them to deal with for better or worse. It's no accident that children of parents who commit suicide are more likely to follow in their steps. So people who commit suicide have either deluded themselves into thinking it isn't true that their loved ones will experience excrutiating pain, or choose to do it anyway (a lot choose this option on purpose as revenge.) I am really clear with my kids, for instance in the wake of a teen suicide, that this is the impact because especially in the teen years one can not factor other people into account and a teen could do something impulsively. I want them to know the real impact, not a white-washed version of the impact. On the other hand, like yourself, there are many who are in a deep dark hole of horrible pain longing for release and will choose to walk out, and are given the energy to walk out, step by difficult step, because of love for those who love them, because they cannot bear to inflict that kind of pain on those they love. Love triumphs. But there are likely suicidal people reading this thread. And for those who have passed to the other side of those thoughts, *they* see little difference between themselves & those who committed suicide. The difference is often nothing more than grace, & who would take credit for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sewingmama Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I guess it depends what you believe happens after you die. My belief is that death is only the death of your physical body - your spirit is still alive after you die and therefore there is still a chance to repent after you die. I certainly don't believe that once you die all your chances for forgiveness are ended and it's all over. What about people who have never heard of God or had the chance to accept him in this lifetime - do they remain unforgiven because they committed suicide but did not realise it was a sin? Take a look at cultures such as Japan - a lot of them actually believe suicide is an honorable thing to do because it saves the persons family from shame over something the person has done -it is not viewed as selfish at all. Not all murder is the same - people accidently kill others all the time. Some people are not in their right mind when they kill other's even if it's intentionally - the same as suicide - nobody who kill themselves are thinking straight - they honestly believe it is the best option for everyone. If there are people who kill themselves to intentionally hurt others as an I"ll show you sort of thing - then how can they be held to the same degree of responsibility as someone who was mentally ill. What about people who may know it is wrong but simply have no coping skills and cannot find any way to get themselves out of the depression? We humans in the courts of our lands that we set up allow for diminished responsibility - a child cannot be charged for murder - neither can someone with mental retardation and people who can prove they were insane at the time are not treated as harshly either. If we imperfect humans can figure that out and show compassion and mercy on those grounds -then why can't God. Sin will always be a sin- it always has to be paid for - but that is where mercy and justice comes in. How much responsibility a person has for a sin is up to God. If a person is genuinely sorry after he dies then why would God not show some sort of compassion for them in the least or complete forgiveness at the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 But there are likely suicidal people reading this thread. And for those who have passed to the other side of those thoughts, *they* see little difference between themselves & those who committed suicide. The difference is often nothing more than grace, & who would take credit for that? The difference is FAR greater than grace. The difference is that one is seeing it as an option. The other has decided that nothing ranks quite high enough to turn them away. The difference between people that considered suicide and decided NOT to is that they decided to struggle through their pain to put their loved ones first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I think the word "cruel" implies a level of intent to hurt that I do not think is generally present in people who commit suicide. And I think "selfish" implies a level of deliberate comparison between the importance of one thing and another that is also not generally something that is happening in the mind of someone who chooses suicide. I think in many, if not most, cases of suicide things are so distorted in the person's mind (whether due to temporary or chronic mental illness, substance use/abuse, social custom, or whatever) that the thoughts just don't process in that way. I think to assign words like "cruel" and "selfish" is to assume a completely different thought process than is actually occurring--at least most of the time. I do think there is often a high level of focus on self, but I don't think that's quite the same thing as selfishness; selfishness is seeing the need of others, and deciding it doesn't matter, or matters less than one's own need, whereas a person can get to the point where they honestly cannot see the need of others, or see it in a distorted way, which is not quite the same thing as making a clear-minded decision that it doesn't matter. (How's that for a weird rambly sentence...lol...I have a headache, can you tell?) Also, I absolutely acknowledge that those who are left behind are dealt a tremendously painful blow by the suicide, but I'm not sure that the person who commits suicide always understands the pain that will be inflicted by that act, and I don't think ignorance, or naivety, or mental illness, is quite the same thing as 'cruelty'. I don't think it's a rational behavior, and it seems irrational to claim that an irrational behavior is based on a rational, coherent, thought process. As far as religious belief on the subject, I don't agree with the ideas described in the OP either. My personal belief meshes well with that of my church, which is nicely expressed on this page from the church website: Although it is wrong to take one's own life, a person who commits suicide may not be responsible for his or her acts. Only God can judge such a matter. Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles has said: “Obviously, we do not know the full circumstances surrounding every suicide. Only the Lord knows all the details, and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth. â€When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration: our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health, and so forth“ And if someone reading this thread IS feeling suicidal, please get help. You are worth it. One source of help is the National Suicide Prevention hotline, which you can call at 1-800-273-8255. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 A catholic priest who has written many, many articles on suicide and the people who suffer in silence. Here is a link to all his articles. http://www.ronrolheiser.com/columnarchive/?search=suicide&Submit=Search+Archives Gently said but with no apologies. Until you have walked a mile... Thank you for that article. I spent yesterday afternoon at the funeral of a 15 year old boy who took his own life. There are a lot of words that have gone through my mind in the last few days but cruel and selfish were not among them. I certainly hope if someone felt his act was cruel and selfish that they kept those thoughts to themselves and didn't share them with his family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 A catholic priest who has written many, many articles on suicide and the people who suffer in silence. Here is a link to all his articles. http://www.ronrolheiser.com/columnarchive/?search=suicide&Submit=Search+Archives Gently said but with no apologies. Until you have walked a mile... thank you for posting that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) But there are likely suicidal people reading this thread. And for those who have passed to the other side of those thoughts, *they* see little difference between themselves & those who committed suicide. The difference is often nothing more than grace, & who would take credit for that? :iagree: Thank you, Aubrey. You put into words what I wanted to say. I don't feel I am any different than people who have actually followed through with a plan. There was a time (before husband and before kids) when I was ready to do it. When I "chickened out" I felt even more worthless. I certainly didn't feel like I made a choice. The time after kids, I felt it was God's grace and his intervention that made my children laugh when they did. For it was that beautiful sound that tugged at me and gave me something to live for. ETA: I am no longer in that dark place. While I still have bad days, I experienced a tremendous healing as part of a retreat experience at church. It has been 6 years since I was pulled out of that hole. Edited March 10, 2011 by dirty ethel rackham wasn't dnne yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 :iagree::iagree::iagree: I'm so glad God is bigger than we people make Him out to be. I am with the late Ruth Bell Graham on this issue: "God may not have called them home but He welcomes them nonetheless." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemyboys Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 My step-brother committed suicide. I so clearly remember my step-mother's angst over "Why didn't he just CALL me? Why couldn't he think about the pain he'd cause the rest of us? He could have gotten over this. We'll NEVER get over what he's done." He ended his young life over the cruelty of his ex-wife. She wasn't worth his dying over. And, I've suffered severe depression in the past and have toyed with the idea of suicide when I was younger, so I'm not without the ability to relate. And, I think "selfish" in this type of circumstance isn't necessarily an accusation, like a child won't share a toy kind of selfish. I think one of the results of depression is that people tend to think of themselves. I don't mean in a narcissistic way, but in a way that they're thinking about their pain a lot. I'm afraid I'm not putting this clearly. I don't mean this with judgment or accusation. I can only speak from my own experiences, and when I'm really depressed, and back when I was a teen and young adult, my suicidal ideations were based on my how miserable I was, or how awful my life was. I never gave a thought to doing squat for anyone else, I was in pain so I only thought about me. In my mind, that's how I view suicide as "selfish." Depression is a complex issue. So many variables go into why someone's depressed, to what degree, whether it's an organic or circumstantial cause. I truly believe in a God of grace who'd know exactly where someone's heart and mind are at the moment of death. I don't categorically believe suicide=hell. God hates sin and his wrath can come down on it, but he's also a God of mercy and grace and gave us a high priest who can relate to every. single. thing. we feel and are tempted by--a high priest who shed His blood for every sin we make. We can't judge where someone lands in the afterlife; we can make educated guesses based on their lives, but only God knows who's truly His. Only God can truly know a man's heart or mind. Actually, I think you said this very well. Thanks for sharing such intimate details about this subject...fwiw, I agree with you. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 I think calling suicide "selfish" is cruel. I knew someone who lost her brother this way, & these were her accusations against him. Maybe for him it was selfish. I'm sure she was speaking from a place of incredible hurt, BUT I don't think suicide is coming from a *different* place, kwim? People who are feeling suicidal & need help often won't seek it because of these kinds of attitudes. I feel sorry for those who find themselves so deep in despair and see no way out and break from whatever burdens them. And then...there is the awesome grace of God who knows our hearts and minds! I even feel compassionate toward those who have the attitude that they are going to show the rest of the world what they thought of them...or something along those lines. This thought pattern is so unhealthy and almost deranged that it, too, deserves GRACE, IMHO at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 10, 2011 Share Posted March 10, 2011 Awww, Kathleen, that must have been hellish for you as a child! I was basing my comment on the state of mind of the suicidal person - or what I imagine their state of mind to be. I still feel sorry for your Mom to have been so desperate but I can see that as a child it felt like the ultimate rejection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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