I missing something when it comes to writing skills

[plain jane]

and I'm hoping someone here can help me fill in the steps. I feel like the answer to this should be so obvious (and it likely is) but my head is spinning.

 

I've reread the WTM section on history and writing. I understand how she states that outlining practice will "... begin to prepare the student for more advanced composition. As he moves into high school, he'll need to know how to write his own history essays from an outline. Before he can do this, however, he needs to study the outlines of other writers...."

 

Ok, I get this part and the "why" of it. I have to say that I was a bit shocked when rereading the WTM about her saying a Logic stage child should be doing dictation, narration, writing of summaries/evaluations, outlining 2x per week AND using a separate writing program :svengo: but I'll somehow figure how to get that all in.;)

 

Here's where my question comes in. It stems from thoughts brewing in my mind as of late, and from HappyGrace's thread started this morning. She asked what a rigorous course of study would look like by the end of 6th grade. Now, I'm not looking for rigor necessarily, but I *am* looking for thorough and to also "keep up" with what I hear kids are doing in the local private schools (along with what I think my dd is capable of).

 

In response to her thread someone stated this:

 

For Writing, I would expect strong 3 paragraph essays in each category: Expository, Descriptive, and Narrative. I would also expect her to be able to produce 2 page (typed) research papers with 3 sources in a proper bibliography.

 

8FilltheHeart stated this:

 

My 6th grade dd that is advanced will be writing supported literary essays in MLA format (not quite as strict on the formating issues as I am with my older students)...

 

My question is *how* does one go from writing of outlines and summaries to writing multi paragraph essays- especially persuasive and compare/contrast ones where critical faculties are required. What are you all using to bridge that gap from outlining someone's work to putting together well thought through essays? It says in WTM that "... Writing Strands and other texts will help the child's developing critical faculties..." and I'm wondering what these other texts are? :D There's *got* to be something better than WS for teaching essay writing, right???

 

I had thought we may give CW Homer a go for 5th but with CW she won't be getting to essays for quite some time. On my own, I am not confident in my abilities to teach her how to write an essay.

 

I guess I'm just not sure where to go. Dd enjoys writing and is comfortable writing multiple paragraphs. She's currently writing page to page and a half summaries of what she reads (right now it's Tiner's The History of Medicine) and she's able to read multiple library books on a topic and write short research papers (she last did one on bats and wrote an introductory paragraph, 5 body paragraphs each about a different aspect of bats, and then a concluding paragraph- she also included bibliography and illustrations). We've been working on sentence composition using the Killgallon books. We've not started outlining yet but beyond that I'm could use some guidance on where we can go from here.

 

So far it's been about taking in facts and spitting them back out in her own words and we're both ready to move beyond this but I don't know how. :001_huh:

 

Help?

[Honey Bee]

:lurk5:

[Capt_Uhura]

:lurk5:

[plain jane]

:lurk5:

 

:lurk5:

 

Y'all are making me hungry. :lol:

[Kimber]

This is one of the reasons that I like The Lost Tools of Writing.

 

The program initially teaches the 5 paragraph essay format, but before that it begins with a question.

 

Whether so and so should have done _________

 

Then Andrew has you brainstorm answers to the question.

 

I know I'm not explaining this well. We used this program for ever bit of a month before we joined a co-op and we didn't finish. Instead my daughter is doing creative writing. But when co-op is over, we're going to spend the summer, myself and my two older kids, going through the program.

 

But the premise is that children begin with a question from literature or history and then answer that question for themselves--from their own brainstormed proofs. This is the invention that is missing in the programs that are all about imitation.

 

Others who've actually used the program for longer than a month can give you a much better answer.

 

And I'm sorry I sound incoherent. I'm a little sick today.

 

Kimberly

 

Here's a link to Karenciavo's explanation of The Lost Tools of Writing.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Kimber

[Cleopatra]

Oh, I felt exactly like you before I began CW! I originally decided to use CW because I had a "feeling" it would be a good program. I couldn't articulate why, or how at the time, I just jumped in! Now that we're almost in Homer B, I can look back and see how well it prepares children to deal with writing.

 

First of all, CW works with well-written models and, in the instruction portion, focuses only on the simple beginning tools of writing, such as making synonym substitutions, grammar changes, condensing and expanding sentence, etc. In regards to "outlining", it gives you a number of ways to do this: breaking the model into scenes (Theon's 6 Components), doing summary sentences for each paragraph and, I believe, we are coming up to the lessons on outlining. Even though CW has not reached the point of asking the child to write an essay, my dd is so familiar with all the components (broken down) and is familiar with what forms good writing, that, if she is instructed to write an essay, can do it without much problem. Of course, the final product would still need work but what I value most is that she is not phased at all with any type of writing, because she's been given the tools to deal with most writing situations.

 

I've been enjoying browsing through the High School Writing Forum and looking at the critique comments. With any suggestions given for the writing projects, I can usually say ..... "CW teaches that ...... CW addresses that issue ....", etc. It's made me realize that my initial "feeling" was probably quite accurate.

 

That said, CW is work (especially Homer ....... I've heard Diogenes is much easier) with a learning curve for the parent, but it really entrenches the skills needed to write well.

[wapiti]

I think it's important to distinguish between two different kinds of outlining: outlining someone else's material, for whatever purpose, and outlining the essay itself before it gets written. SWB's quote is talking about both.

 

I look at the writing and the analysis involved in figuring out what to say as two separate steps, the analysis part being the hard part. Perhaps my view is too simplistic, but all the same nuggets of information (that support it being persuasive, compare/contrast, or what have you) should be present in the outline of the essay and later in the essay itself. To separate the thinking from the writing, I'd aim to make the outline of the essay more detailed as a first step, possibly so detailed that it gradually morphs into the essay itself. If I can't make an important point in outline form, it'll turn out vague in the essay. How to teach the analysis part, I have no idea (surely there's a curriculum :lol:). I'm so helpful, I know.

 

But the premise is that children begin with a question from literature or history and then answer that question for themselves--from their own brainstormed proofs. This is the invention that is missing in the programs that are all about imitation.

And while I was pondering, here it is. This is what I was thinking - this makes absolute sense to me. There can't merely be imitation; there must be content/ideas/substance to write about. Once the student has experienced lots of questions that give rise to such substance, they might be able to form their own on a given topic?? Just wondering out loud...

[HappyGrace]

:lurk5:

 

This is exactly where we are after all our yrs of copywork, narration, and three yrs of IEW (imitative writing), and now some outlining/rewriting from outlining (formal outlines, not Key Word Outlines). No clue on how to move on to academic writing.

[HappyGrace]

And PlainJane-we are living in a parallel universe-I could have written your post, INCLUDING dd right now loving Tiner and writing summaries of it on her own! :)

 

Also, I looked at LTOW borrowed from a df a few months ago and my head was spinning like the girl in The Exorcist (not that I ever saw it but I have heard about it-lol). Wow-can't make heads or tails of it!

[8filltheheart]

Before anyone panics......my dd is VERY gifted in all aspects of language (English grammar and composition included!)

 

My kids go from copywork, to assembling paragraphs where I give the topic sentence and they write the supporting details or vice versa, to writing independent paragraphs, to writing little research books (basically longer reports but w/o transitions. They write paragraph specific topics that cover the whole. For example, they might write a research booklet on the life cycle of a bee and have "chpts" on each stage. No introduction or conclusion paragraphs necessary), to writing reports w/intros/conclusions/transitions, to finally writing essays.

 

HTH

[Capt_Uhura]

And PlainJane-we are living in a parallel universe-I could have written your post, INCLUDING dd right now loving Tiner and writing summaries of it on her own! :)

 

Also, I looked at LTOW borrowed from a df a few months ago and my head was spinning like the girl in The Exorcist (not that I ever saw it but I have heard about it-lol). Wow-can't make heads or tails of it!

 

Happy Grace - LToW is now on it's 4th edition. It's supposed to be more straightforward. WE'll see as I'll get to take a look at it at the convention!

[Capt_Uhura]

 

My kids go from copywork, to assembling paragraphs where I give the topic sentence and they write the supporting details or vice versa, to writing independent paragraphs, to writing little research books (basically longer reports but w/o transitions. They write paragraph specific topics that cover the whole. For example, they might write a research booklet on the life cycle of a bee and have "chpts" on each stage. No introduction or conclusion paragraphs necessary), to writing reports w/intros/conclusions/transitions, to finally writing essays.

 

HTH

 

Great idea!!! I'm going to use that this week! Thank you 8FilltheHeart.

[ChristineMM]

Perhaps you should look at Institute for Excellence in Writing which starts with a well written paragraph from someone else then the student outlines it then writes it back in his own words. That then teaches outlining and though practice of that method they kind of absorb the flow of good writing.

 

IMO pursuasive writing essays are different than nonfiction writing.

 

Bravewriter approaches writing in a different way but it is great. We use Bravewriter Arrow for language arts and that includes dictation passages from the book being read that month.

 

From conversations with my friend and the standardized test prep books for testing in my state (CT) what they do in school is a joke and very formulatic, it is nothing as rigorous as what is outlined in TWTM. Also the way the schools teach writing they never find their voice which is a key part of Bravewriter.

 

The way I see it everything is leading up to being able to write decently in grades 9-12, so middle school can be seen as a time that's a bit more loose like "by the start of grade 9 we hope the student can write a nonfiction report, a pursuasive essay, a book report and some creative writing". That's my two cents.

 

I also feel that if we push kids when they are too young it is futile. I feel kids can make great strides if they are taught when they are ready. My older was not ready in grade 5 to write a pursuasive essay but the personality of my 2nd child now in grade 5 -- he naturally thinks and talks like that so I taught him to write a pursuasive essay off the top of my head for the lesson plan and he picked it up immediately, simple as can be. Now he just should practice doing that writing on his own to master the skill.

 

HTH