How do we get ready for logic stage? (Can I put it off for another year??)

[TKDmom]

I keep trying to read the long, interesting conversations that are going on here about writing and grammar and thinking outside the box, but after reading 2 or 3 posts, I get overwhelmed and quit. I don't think I'm ready to have a logic stage student! And I don't know if she's ready for the additional output.

 

I pulled my dd out of school 2 years ago b/c I felt that she wasn't well-served by the program there. I knew I had a gifted student, and had the test scores to prove it. Maybe I'm just used to her now, but I'm starting to doubt that assessment. Maybe I'm just doing a rotten job of teaching her... She's also very young for a 4th grader. If her birthday had been 2 days later, she'd have been a 3rd grader in our district. I've started wondering if I should keep her in Grammar Stage work for another year. It's the writing that especially concerns me.

 

She used to love doing creative writing assignments. Those assignments always caused me stress, so I just didn't have her do them. As I've gotten more comfortable with homeschooling, I've decided to add some of those back in. We did one on Friday. The writing prompt was something about what you would do if it snowed outside and your mom let you out to play. Her response was 2 sentences (I'd encouraged her to write 4 or 5). I don't have the exact words in front of me, but it went something like, "I would build a snowman and a snow angel to go with him. Then I would come inside to drink hot chocolate, because I live in Florida." She was trying to say that she's not used to cold weather, so she wouldn't stay out for very long. Actually, she tacked that 2nd sentence on after I told her she had to write more than one sentence.

 

She's using WWE 3, and she's improved tremendously in her ability to narrate and take dictation. When we started WWE a year ago, it was like pulling teeth to do either, but now they come easily. She does have a tendency to try to squeeze her whole narration into one long, compound sentence, though. It's like a contest for her to see how little she can say while still conveying the main thought. I read these quotes from SWB saying that the LS student will write narrations that are between one-half and a whole page, and I just don't see my dd doing that anytime soon.

 

We're also using MCT. She started Island level a little over a year ago. We finished it up and jumped right into Town level in October. I'm feeling like I should have waited a little while. We're on lesson 4 of Paragraph Town, and some of those upcoming writing assignments are hard! She loves the story, but struggles with the actual writing assignments.

 

Oh, And when the MCT book has Socratic discussion prompts, she just gives me a blank look and eventually wails, "I don't know!" We just don't have all those wonderful conversations that others talk about having over MCT. We're probably both too perfectionistic... But outside of school assignments, she'll come up with really profound ideas and connections between things. Sometimes they're bizarre, but you can tell she's been thinking deeply.

 

Okay I think I'm rambling. Sorry! I wanted to try to give a picture of where my dd is writing-wise. I'm feeling lost. How to I move her toward Logic Stage? Should I just give her more time to mature and keep plugging away with what we've already got? Or do I need to start ratcheting up the writing expectations? Or do I need to change something about how I'm approaching writing? Help!

Edited January 24, 2011 by bonniebeth4

[abbeyej]

You know, while WTM divides grammar, logic, and rhetoric neatly into 4-year chunks, you'll find many places that SWB acknowledges that children develop at different rates and these numbers are far from absolute. Children grow and mature and move from one stage to another at generally predictable but not exact times.

 

So as you prepare for her next school year, definitely consider both grammar and logic-stage materials and techniques, and pick what you believe will work best for her. Continue to work with her to improve her writing skills. It does sound as if she'll need another year of working through WWE4 before she's ready to face logic-stage writing. That's okay. Use this year to shore up her foundational skills so that when she is ready to make more sophisticated arguments, she has the basic skills that allow her to do that.

[AngelBee]

Personally, I am planning on doing Logic 7-9. We are doing Lower Grammar 1-3 and Upper Grammar 4-6.

[Guest]

If she's a very bright child, she might have a perfectionistic streak that makes her reluctant to write the "wrong" thing. Or she might have simply gotten unused to the free-flowing nature of more creative writing.

 

One suggestion I have is to take a look at Peggy Kaye's book Games For Writing. The point of them is to loosen up a child who for any reason freezes up or is anxious about what she's "supposed" to be writing. They're fun, they're low-key, they're presented in game format precisely to get away from the tensions some kids feel when presented with a more formal assignment or prompt. You can do them with her and be really playful or wild to get her in the spirit.

[TKDmom]

Thanks for the replies! They really help. Now that it's morning, I'm feeling really silly for writing such a long rambling post last night. But it is nice to be reminded that I don't have to do things exactly the way The Book tells me to. ;)

[HSMom2One]

Thanks for the replies! They really help. Now that it's morning, I'm feeling really silly for writing such a long rambling post last night. But it is nice to be reminded that I don't have to do things exactly the way The Book tells me to. ;)

 

I hear you! I've read the TWTM and taken in what is helpful for us, then I customize our studies to where we are and the goals we are aimed toward. Then later on I'll pick up the TWTM and read it through again, repeating the same thing. It keeps me on track this way and pushes me a bit to challenge my dd more, but it's also realistic to our own life and situation. In other words, TWTM is the standard I hold before me, but I'm not going to become legalistic about it.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[Capt_Uhura]

I don't think it's something you move her towards, I think it's something SHE moves towards. You just have to be ready when it happens. :001_smile: I know, not very helpful but true.

[Capt_Uhura]

I think that is the hard part about having a gifted child - the asynchrony. While they have logic stage thoughts, make those fantastic connections, have the desire to learn....many have grammar stage skills. And many curricula that would be perfect for her logic stage mind, ask too much of her logic stage skills. Then the tough question is, do you wait until the skills catch up or do you modify what you're doing to accommodate those skills.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I don't think it's something you move her towards, I think it's something SHE moves towards. You just have to be ready when it happens. :001_smile: I know, not very helpful but true.

 

:iagree:

 

You'll know when you get there. When a classically educated child reaches the logic stage you cannot keep him in the grammar stage any longer. He won't let you. His insatiable thirst for answers and connections will drive your curriculum choices and the manner in which you discuss his lessons with him.

 

Remember observing your baby through typical developmental stages? No one can force a child to walk or talk. Neither can anyone stop a child who is ready to do those things.

 

The stages of learning are likewise developmental. Be prepared for the next stage, but watch the child.

[momto2Cs]

Personally, I am planning on doing Logic 7-9. We are doing Lower Grammar 1-3 and Upper Grammar 4-6.

 

:iagree:

[TKDmom]

You'll know when you get there. When a classically educated child reaches the logic stage you cannot keep him in the grammar stage any longer. He won't let you. His insatiable thirst for answers and connections will drive your curriculum choices and the manner in which you discuss his lessons with him.

 

Remember observing your baby through typical developmental stages? No one can force a child to walk or talk. Neither can anyone stop a child who is ready to do those things.

 

The stages of learning are likewise developmental. Be prepared for the next stage, but watch the child.

 

This makes sense. I must not be there yet, since I still don't know exactly what I'm looking for. Sometimes I think she's there. The attitude that I didn't expect to see for a few more years? Check. Arguing with me about everything? Check. Constantly correcting my "mistakes"? Check.

 

But she's not there yet with typical academic measures. To use your analogy, my 1 yo dd is learning to talk. She says dozens of words. She can convey information and requests to me. But to anyone outside the family, it would be gibberish (actually to no one outside the family gets anything but intent staring while she sucks her thumb--but that's beside the point ;)). I suppose my 9yo is just starting to "talk" and I can "hear" it, but it will be another year or so before I could say she's definitely there.

 

I think that is the hard part about having a gifted child - the asynchrony. While they have logic stage thoughts, make those fantastic connections, have the desire to learn....many have grammar stage skills. And many curricula that would be perfect for her logic stage mind, ask too much of her logic stage skills. Then the tough question is, do you wait until the skills catch up or do you modify what you're doing to accommodate those skills.

 

 

I think that's my problem with what to do with her. I don't want to bore her with things that are too easy, but I make her hate everything if I try to push skills to where I think they should be. And let's be honest. I'm a box-checker, and it's painful for me to modify curricula. I've been very slowly reading through the "outside the box" thread today, and it's giving me a lot of food for thought. It's just so hard to let go...

[TKDmom]

Personally, I am planning on doing Logic 7-9. We are doing Lower Grammar 1-3 and Upper Grammar 4-6.

 

 

Can you tell me more about what you mean? My first thought was that you must use TOG. Do you? That's the only place I've seen LG and UG designations. I kind have an idea of how they use those terms. But in a broader sense, what does it mean to have an upper grammar student? And how do you teach them differently than LG?

[LNC]

Personally, I am planning on doing Logic 7-9. We are doing Lower Grammar 1-3 and Upper Grammar 4-6.

 

We are doing this also. :) Upper grammar to me just means higher levels of the same type of instruction described in WTM grammar stage. Language arts, Memorization, history reading, narration and dictation, science at a grammar level (reading and vocabulary memorization) etc. In 7th we will do more outlining, logic as a subject and begin our Latin studies as well as higher level maths and science. HTH!

Edited January 24, 2011 by LNC

[Dina in Oklahoma]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Personally, I am planning on doing Logic 7-9. We are doing Lower Grammar 1-3 and Upper Grammar 4-6.

[Poke Salad Annie]

We are doing this also. :) Upper grammar to me just means higher levels of the same type of instruction described in WTM grammar stage. Language arts, Memorization, history reading, narration and dictation, science at a grammar level (reading and vocabulary memorization) etc. In 7th we will do more outlining, logic as a subject and begin our Latin studies as well as higher level maths and science. HTH!

 

:iagree: This is the way I see it for us too. I finally quit stressing and just made up a plan and ran with it. I'm giving up the worry and just moving along incrementally and it's working.

[Crimson Wife]

Paragraph Town is a challenging book, even for a gifted kid working at a late elementary level in LA. I personally am going to have my younger kids go through at least one of the Killgallon sentence-composing books and probably also EPS' The Paragraph Book series prior to tackling MCT "town".

 

What I like about the EPS series is that it teaches the child how to write a paragraph step-by-step-by-step. Unlike PT, which is much more open-ended. As MCT wrote for a PS audience, I suspect he assumed the children already were familiar with the kinds of things explicitly taught in the EPS series.

[Gratia271]

Paragraph Town is a challenging book, even for a gifted kid working at a late elementary level in LA. I personally am going to have my younger kids go through at least one of the Killgallon sentence-composing books and probably also EPS' The Paragraph Book series prior to tackling MCT "town".

 

What I like about the EPS series is that it teaches the child how to write a paragraph step-by-step-by-step. Unlike PT, which is much more open-ended. As MCT wrote for a PS audience, I suspect he assumed the children already were familiar with the kinds of things explicitly taught in the EPS series.

 

Could you give me a link to the EPS series you are referencing? On another note, would you recommend the Sentence Composing for Middle School by Killgallon over the Middle School grammar by Killgallon, or do I need both for an older student?

[wapiti]

What I like about the EPS series is that it teaches the child how to write a paragraph step-by-step-by-step. Unlike PT, which is much more open-ended. As MCT wrote for a PS audience, I suspect he assumed the children already were familiar with the kinds of things explicitly taught in the EPS series.

 

Could you give me a link to the EPS series you are referencing?

 

It might be this?

 

http://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/details.cfm?seriesonly=2671M

 

Crimson Wife, did you do all 4 of these? And did you use the teacher editions? Thank you!!! (If you can't tell, I'm still shopping around for a writing curriculum ;). I'm sure you'll all be glad when I finally settle on something :D.)

Edited January 30, 2011 by wapiti

[Karen in CO]

I had been wondering about how to tell when my dd was ready for the logic stage. I think Dorothy Sayers says it best.

 

 

It is difficult to say at what age, precisely, we should pass from the first to the second part of the Trivium. Generally speaking, the answer is: so soon as the pupil shows himself disposed to pertness and interminable argument.

 

 

Lately, I've been very inspired by her essay.

 

 

 

I don't think it is necessary to "get a kid ready for the next stage." I think it is important to be fully engaged in where you are, then reorient yourself occasionally.

[Gratia271]

It might be this?

 

http://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/details.cfm?seriesonly=2671M

 

Crimson Wife, did you do all 4 of these?

 

Thanks!

[wapiti]

I had been wondering about how to tell when my dd was ready for the logic stage. I think Dorothy Sayers says it best.

 

QUOTE: It is difficult to say at what age, precisely, we should pass from the first to the second part of the Trivium. Generally speaking, the answer is: so soon as the pupil shows himself disposed to pertness and interminable argument.

 

 

Hmmm... it would seem dd9-almost-10 has arrived at such a stage. But then, in many ways, she's been this way since birth :glare:. Seriously :mad:. (can you tell I'm a bit fed up right now?) Am I the only one who feels that my child has been this argumentative since birth?

[Gratia271]

Hmmm... it would seem dd9-almost-10 has arrived at such a stage. But then, in many ways, she's been this way since birth :glare:. Seriously :mad:. (can you tell I'm a bit fed up right now?) Am I the only one who feels that my child has been this argumentative since birth?

 

I have three like that. DH says they come by it honestly since I am an attorney. :tongue_smilie:

[wapiti]

I have three like that. DH says they come by it honestly since I am an attorney. :tongue_smilie:

:lol: Well then, maybe that would do it (both Dh and I are attorneys also; or at least I was, once upon a time in a prior life, though I sure never argued like dd. And I certainly never talked back to my mother. Arguing with her is like a crocodile death roll). But the five kids younger than dd haven't done this from birth like she has.

[Crimson Wife]

It might be this?

 

http://eps.schoolspecialty.com/products/details.cfm?seriesonly=2671M

 

Crimson Wife, did you do all 4 of these? And did you use the teacher editions? Thank you!!! (If you can't tell, I'm still shopping around for a writing curriculum ;). I'm sure you'll all be glad when I finally settle on something :D.)

 

Yes, DD did all 4 of those last year. The TM is geared towards classroom use and I found that I didn't really need the answer key as the answers to the chapter quizzes were self-evident. So I didn't bother getting the TM for volumes 2-4.

 

There are 10-15 chapters per book. If one does one chapter per week, each book will last about a semester. One could get through all 4 books in a single year by doing 2 chapters per week.

[TKDmom]

Hmmm... it would seem dd9-almost-10 has arrived at such a stage. But then, in many ways, she's been this way since birth :glare:. Seriously :mad:. (can you tell I'm a bit fed up right now?) Am I the only one who feels that my child has been this argumentative since birth?

 

That's how I feel with my dd. When she was like 18 hours old, she was screaming and demanding food. While the other newborns very cooperatively went to sleep and let their mommies recover from giving birth. :glare: She's always had her own ideas about how things should be done, and isn't afraid to let us know about it. ;)

 

As I reread this thread, I realized that I'm not so much concerned about logic stage in general. Just the writing expectations. And unfortunately MCT has lost it's luster for me. <sigh> I'd hoped it would get us through middle school. I'm not even sure I'll make it through this year with it.

 

On a bright note, I got a diagramming book and Peggy Kaye's Writing Games book this week. DD got a hold of them, and thinks they are both wonderful. I think we're going to have fun with them. I need to get up the courage to drop what's not working for us, and loosen up my expectations...

[wapiti]

Yes, DD did all 4 of those last year. The TM is geared towards classroom use and I found that I didn't really need the answer key as the answers to the chapter quizzes were self-evident. So I didn't bother getting the TM for volumes 2-4.

 

There are 10-15 chapters per book. If one does one chapter per week, each book will last about a semester. One could get through all 4 books in a single year by doing 2 chapters per week.

 

Thank you very much for all this info!! Very very helpful!! (I'm so glad the TM wasn't particularly useful - for some reason, I hate buying TMs! I guess I'm just cheap.) I think we may try the first book and go from there.

[SoCal Sandra]

Originally Posted by Gratia271

I have three like that. DH says they come by it honestly since I am an attorney. :tongue_smilie:

 

:lol: Well then, maybe that would do it (both Dh and I are attorneys also; or at least I was, once upon a time in a prior life, though I sure never argued like dd. And I certainly never talked back to my mother. Arguing with her is like a crocodile death roll). But the five kids younger than dd haven't done this from birth like she has.

 

I too passed the attorney gene on to my kids. They are more argumentative than I care for and I think they read, "You Can Negotiate Anything" while in the womb.

[nd293]

I don't think you're alone in having doubts. We've just started Gr5 (today, actually!) and I've already realised that the there is going to be a definite gap between what I want to achieve and what we can get done in a day. I'm not sure if that's because dd works too slowly, is unmotivated or where the problem lies.

 

Dd is reading and writing well, though. I think that if she was not, I would probably delay some logic stage work for a while. But a lack of writing skills doesn't necessarily mean she isn't ready for some solid pre-logic work such as Mindbenders puzzles etc.

 

Reading your post, I questioned the need for creative writing assignments. Logic stage (and academic stage, really) will ask far more in the line of academic writing than creative writing. I found the IEW approach incredibly helpful in this regard. We did not do the full programme, but simply worked through one of the theme-based books. Our approach might have been less robust than many writing programmes, but we got to the heart of the matter. I felt that both dd and I had a better understanding of what was expected of her writing afterwards.

 

Nikki