CC: The role of WOMEN in Ministry?

[freethinkermama]

Nevermind, I see someone else already gave the Biblical reference I was sharing.

Edited January 5, 2011 by freethinkermama

[freethinkermama]

That was extremely depressing. But thanks for sharing it.

 

My husband wouldn't mind a bit being under the authority of a woman. He's had women bosses before & it wasn't an issue. He has a great deal of respect for them.

 

I can see how it would be really depressing. I feel bad for women who feel terribly hindered and abused by such a belief system. I'm really fortunate that I have a husband who was less committed to the hierarchy than I was. :) He had no trouble being "under the authority" of a woman either. And I don't know that _most_ men, even those who believe in Christian headship would treat a woman badly to her face, but they would feel the woman would receive greater blessing by maintaining her own sphere and that it keeps her from spiritual harm. That's one way of spinning it.

 

I find it fascinating at how many women are first drawn to Christian Patriarchy and headship, even encouraging their husbands toward it. (As was our case) There's an entire church branch in Australia (based on a well-known, fundamentalist group here in the US) that's devoted to full-quiver and the Christian Patriarchy (forgive me, that's not the correct term for it, but it's not leaping to mind) that is exclusively women! I have my own pet theories about why this is the case. . . but I'll keep them to myself.

 

For the folks for whom this works, I'm happy for them. It comes at tremendous cost for others. And that IS depressing!

[AuntieM]

Sorry I haven't read all the replies yet, just jumping in to share an interesting side of the issue.

 

I was in an apartment complex business center, working on a presentation for a ladies' retreat to address this very question. A black woman was working beside me and asked what I was studying (I'm guessing she noticed my Bible open on the desk).

 

When I told her I was investigating the role of women in ministry, she grinned. "Honey, if we didn't have women in ministry in our [inner] city church, we wouldn't have a church!" Her smile faded as she continued, "Our men just won't do it."

 

That led to a very interesting discussion on how women are often disenfranchised from soul enriching church participation because the men in their lives refuse to take up their "assigned" roles as spiritual leaders.

 

Honestly, how many of us here on the boards have husbands who are professing, church-going Christians, who turn the entire responsibility of their kids' spiritual education over to mom? I know very many such families in real life. Heck, I am such a family in real life. I did all the teaching for my kids, despite asking dh to do it. Finally some older Christian woman "advised" me that he wouldn't do it as long as I was doing it, so I must stop and give dh room to grow. So I did, and watched, and waited, and prayed. Guess what? My kids went several years with no spiritual/Biblical study at home. My heart ached all through that time, and aches more now as I struggle to reenter their lives in the teen years as their Bible teacher. There's a reason Eunice and Lois are specifically mentioned in the Bible...

 

I have grown tired of womens' studies that start and stop on Titus chapter two. I don't think T2 is wrong, I just know there's more. Take Ephesians, for example (I'm thinking ch 5/6). The wife is told to respect her husband. That implies bowing. The husband is told to put his wife on a pedastal. So if the wife is bowing, yet is elevated, is she not then face-to-face with her husband? I suppose I am straying off women in leadership and more into husband-wife relationships, but I think it sets a tone for women in the church.

 

What of Lydia? She started a church. What of Deborah? She clearly gave a man the option of leadership and victory, yet he declined.

 

I also wonder about the context of Paul's instructions for women to remain silent in church. Wasn't that church having issues with uncontrolled ecstatic speech? Does that circumstance apply today? How does modern culture affect how we apply what we read there? As for being told to ask their questions to their own husbands at home... what of the wife who loves to study her Bible and discuss what she is learning, but her dh refuses to dig deep with her? How can she ask questions in this situation, when her husband doesn't know and won't seek the answers she needs? And I mean this is a good man, one who provides for all the family's physical needs, but is just sort of - less introspective? less contemplative? - on a spiritual level.

 

Let's face it, whether or not women are given titles such as deacon or elder or even pastor, women fulfill a large percentage of duties in church matters. I would even say that, counting all the unrecognized doings, women in many churchs do the majority of the work.

 

I do personally believe that the senior pastor of a local church body should be male. I believe this is indicated in the Bible. I do also see that only men are specifically mentioned as elders. But I bet each of you could name a woman at your church who unofficially serves in such a capacity. At one church I attended, the wise, gray-haired secretary of the pastor was almost always asked for her POV by the pastor, and her wise words were very carefully considered. And every woman who organizes a meal ministry, or serves as a nursery coordinator, are these not deaconesses? Just like Phoebe?

 

As far as I know, the denominations that allow women pastors are those that a man does not have to feel obligated to sit under (ie, not assigned to a diocese); a man would not have to sit under the teachings of a women, if he found it distasteful or considered it unscriptural.

 

Okay, I think I'm going on a rant here, so I'll get off. But I think this is a loaded question (and one I am glad you asked, it is good for me to read what others have to say about this).

 

Aubrey, I appreciate your comments regarding Adam! And I am thinking of Imp's signature, too.... Not a Stepford Wife...

 

ETA - After reading all the way through, I just wanted to add thanks to freethinkermom, I sooooo appreciate your POV. I find it validating. I will never forget the little swimmer's comment...

Edited January 5, 2011 by AuntieM

[Garga]

This whole thread makes me twitchy.....

 

 

Me, too. I think it makes me so upset because I'm so convinced that it is not God's intention for it to be carried out the way it is in some churches at all. Freethinkermama's old church sounds terrifying. Where is the balance? Because even if you believe in the diminished role of women (which I don't), there at least needs to be balance. There was no tempering or balance in her situation.

 

If there are any non-Christians reading this, please understand that a HUGE number of us do not believe that those sorts of attitudes are appropriate or at all required by God. I tend to look on the stories of where women were being abused and shunned and Jesus specifically sought those women out to bless them, and when the men around him chastised these women, Jesus made a point of standing up for the women, even if it made him unpopular to do so.

[freethinkermama]

Me, too. I think it makes me so upset because I'm so convinced that it is not God's intention for it to be carried out the way it is in some churches at all. Freethinkermama's old church sounds terrifying. Where is the balance? Because even if you believe in the diminished role of women (which I don't), there at least needs to be balance. There was no tempering or balance in her situation.

 

If there are any non-Christians reading this, please understand that a HUGE number of us do not believe that those sorts of attitudes are appropriate or at all required by God. I tend to look on the stories of where women were being abused and shunned and Jesus specifically sought those women out to bless them, and when the men around him chastised these women, Jesus made a point of standing up for the women, even if it made him unpopular to do so.

 

Actually, it was possibly my favorite church I ever went to, I bet lots of Evangelicals on this board would really like it. :) There was a lot of balance in my church. Woman worship leader, upbeat music, lots of really fun homeschoolers. Plenty of others with mothers who worked outside the home. It didn't divert theologically from most Evangelical church I've ever run across. Plus, it was one fellow in one class. I didn't mind it at the time, but my husband rolled his eyes at being asked "permission." I got to speak my mind, I was given a platform, I got to say what I was interested in saying, and answered questions.

 

You're right, that not all Christians or churches are crazy, but there are aspects of these issues is many churches. It's because issues like sex-roles are all over the Bible. Also, there are power issues in any organization. And when you have a guidebook that already emphasizes men/women, it's a good springboard.

 

And issues of authority (power) don't necessarily have to be between men/women. I saw something that fascinated me (not in a good way) a while back with a female friend of mine and the worship minister (woman) at her church. She was suggesting a change in . . .something, I can't remember what, but the worship minister got mad at her for "ursurping her authority." Apparently, the worship minister was supposed to have authority over her because she didn't hold a role. :lol:

 

So, no. No one is saying all Christians are like this, or all churches. And I give people the benefit of the doubt that they are bright enough to understand that. (Christians are everywhere, and likely everyone on this board knows a handful they can compare :)) I am saying that authority and gender roles/responsibilities are a Common Issue, whether in small or large ways, though more commonly among "Bible believing" groups. (Hence the Bible verses previously referenced).

 

Even in churches where women can have "every" role. . . except that as a senior pastor. It may be open, affirming, ministering to the poor, faithful to the gospel, seeker-friendly, etc. but there's still the man/woman authority issue.

[freethinkermama]

Sorry I haven't read all the replies yet, just jumping in to share an interesting side of the issue.

 

I was in an apartment complex business center, working on a presentation for a ladies' retreat to address this very question. A black woman was working beside me and asked what I was studying (I'm guessing she noticed my Bible open on the desk).

 

When I told her I was investigating the role of women in ministry, she grinned. "Honey, if we didn't have women in ministry in our [inner] city church, we wouldn't have a church!" Her smile faded as she continued, "Our men just won't do it."

 

That led to a very interesting discussion on how women are often disenfranchised from soul enriching church participation because the men in their lives refuse to take up their "assigned" roles as spiritual leaders.

 

Honestly, how many of us here on the boards have husbands who are professing, church-going Christians, who turn the entire responsibility of their kids' spiritual education over to mom? I know very many such families in real life. Heck, I am such a family in real life. I did all the teaching for my kids, despite asking dh to do it. Finally some older Christian woman "advised" me that he wouldn't do it as long as I was doing it, so I must stop and give dh room to grow. So I did, and watched, and waited, and prayed. Guess what? My kids went several years with no spiritual/Biblical study at home. My heart ached all through that time, and aches more now as I struggle to reenter their lives in the teen years as their Bible teacher. There's a reason Eunice and Lois are specifically mentioned in the Bible...

 

I have grown tired of womens' studies that start and stop on Titus chapter two. I don't think T2 is wrong, I just know there's more. Take Ephesians, for example (I'm thinking ch 5/6). The wife is told to respect her husband. That implies bowing. The husband is told to put his wife on a pedastal. So if the wife is bowing, yet is elevated, is she not then face-to-face with her husband? I suppose I am straying off women in leadership and more into husband-wife relationships, but I think it sets a tone for women in the church.

 

What of Lydia? She started a church. What of Deborah? She clearly gave a man the option of leadership and victory, yet he declined.

 

I also wonder about the context of Paul's instructions for women to remain silent in church. Wasn't that church having issues with uncontrolled ecstatic speech? Does that circumstance apply today? How does modern culture affect how we apply what we read there? As for being told to ask their questions to their own husbands at home... what of the wife who loves to study her Bible and discuss what she is learning, but her dh refuses to dig deep with her? How can she ask questions in this situation, when her husband doesn't know and won't seek the answers she needs? And I mean this is a good man, one who provides for all the family's physical needs, but is just sort of - less introspective? less contemplative? - on a spiritual level.

 

Let's face it, whether or not women are given titles such as deacon or elder or even pastor, women fulfill a large percentage of duties in church matters. I would even say that, counting all the unrecognized doings, women in many churchs do the majority of the work.

 

I do personally believe that the senior pastor of a local church body should be male. I believe this is indicated in the Bible. I do also see that only men are specifically mentioned as elders. But I bet each of you could name a woman at your church who unofficially serves in such a capacity. At one church I attended, the wise, gray-haired secretary of the pastor was almost always asked for her POV by the pastor, and her wise words were very carefully considered. And every woman who organizes a meal ministry, or serves as a nursery coordinator, are these not deaconesses? Just like Phoebe?

 

As far as I know, the denominations that allow women pastors are those that a man does not have to feel obligated to sit under (ie, not assigned to a diocese); a man would not have to sit under the teachings of a women, if he found it distasteful or considered it unscriptural.

 

Okay, I think I'm going on a rant here, so I'll get off. But I think this is a loaded question (and one I am glad you asked, it is good for me to read what others have to say about this).

 

Aubrey, I appreciate your comments regarding Adam! And I am thinking of Imp's signature, too.... Not a Stepford Wife...

 

ETA - After reading all the way through, I just wanted to add thanks to freethinkermom, I sooooo appreciate your POV. I find it validating. I will never forget the little swimmer's comment...

 

:iagree: :thumbup:

 

OOoh, and I just saw your ETA. Thanks for the validation. I really don't like to be the nasty in the discussions. . . .I just do like to try to give a different perspective. And I'm finding that mine is pretty unusual.

 

I won't forget that little guy's comment either, even if I have forgotten his name :(

[ciyates]

Even if you alone owned the boat? :confused:

 

In our house everything belongs to each other. My DH would not say "This is my boat and mine alone." We both owned things before we were married and went in knowing that the other would consider it theirs as well.

 

My husband is the head of our household. We are both strong willed people and sometimes there is no compromise. Someone has to lead and someone has to follow.

 

In my studying of the Bible, I believe women serve a very important role however it is not to lead the congregation.

[LidiyaDawn]

I agree pretty much with everything that Bethany has already said ~ I figured I'd just say it rather than gather up each post and put the agreeing smiley underneath. :p

[Garga]

Actually, it was possibly my favorite church I ever went to, I bet lots of Evangelicals on this board would really like it. :) There was a lot of balance in my church. Woman worship leader, upbeat music, lots of really fun homeschoolers. Plenty of others with mothers who worked outside the home. It didn't divert theologically from most Evangelical church I've ever run across. Plus, it was one fellow in one class. I didn't mind it at the time, but my husband rolled his eyes at being asked "permission." I got to speak my mind, I was given a platform, I got to say what I was interested in saying, and answered questions.

 

 

 

Thank you for clarifying. I didn't get all that from your first post. My twitchiness is easing! :)

[freethinkermama]

Thank you for clarifying. I didn't get all that from your first post. My twitchiness is easing! :)

 

"Eaaasy there." *Pets your twitch fondly*

[ElizaG]

We're Catholic, so it's a non-issue for us. The Church will never ordain women to the ministry. This is an infallible teaching.

 

That said, women have always had a tremendous role in building up the Catholic Church. They've been founders of movements, teachers, mystics, philosophers, servants of the poor, and much more. We believe that there are many ways for women to live out their vocation to motherhood and wife-hood, whether in a literal or spiritual sense. But being a Father isn't one of them.

[hillfarm]

I was helping a little boy (7 or so) learn the back float. He wasn't sure I was going to hold him up as he floated.

"I promise you, I won't let you sink."

"You might. You're probably not strong enough to hold me up."

"Oh, I bet I can hold you up. I'm pretty strong."

"You're not as strong as me, though. The Bible says you're a weaker vessel."

 

 

 

I do find it amusing, in terms of being able to imagine various possible responses.

 

"Well, dearie, this "weaker vessel" is what is preventing you from lying on the bottom of the pool. So what kind of vessel does that make you - sunken treasure?":D

 

Seriously though, I do believe the whole weaker vessel thing. When that boy grows up, chances are that he will be physically stronger than most women. But weaker vessel does not equate to less valuable one. A Limoges porcelain tea cup is clearly a weaker vessel than a heavy, thick walled, stoneware bowl. But it has a different role and is valued for how well it performs in that role rather than how it compares with the bowl. The fragile tea cup would perform poorly if used as a utilitarian mixing bowl and the bowl would be awkward and messy, let alone terribly unsatisfying, if expected to provide refinement and comfort.

 

IMO, that is the key - rather than dwelling on unproductive comparisons and who can stretch the most to fit a round peg in a square hole, we are much better served by each focusing on our own unique abilities.

Edited January 6, 2011 by hillfarm

[Joanne]

My dh and I were married by a woman minister. Pretty much sums up my beliefs.

 

My husband came to active church involvement as an adult - and he went to the Baptist church when he did. He immediately became on "on fire" Christian, was pretty inolved and connected to the Promise Keepers (when it was strong and the Christian du jour thing).

 

Meeting me has been a challenge to his....um....Baptist-ness. ;) We were married by my (former Baptist) female Pastor of a Presbyterian Church USA. I think he's getting over the shock. :lol:

[freethinkermama]

I do find it amusing, in terms of being able to imagine various possible responses.

 

"Well, dearie, this "weaker vessel" is what is preventing you from lying on the bottom of the pool. So what kind of vessel does that make you - sunken treasure?":D

 

Seriously though, I do believe the whole weaker vessel thing. When that boy grows up, chances are that he will be physically stronger than most women. But weaker vessel does not equate to less valuable one. A Limoges porcelain tea cup is clearly a weaker vessel than a heavy, thick walled, stoneware bowl. But it has a different role and is valued for how well it performs in that role rather than how it compares with the bowl. The fragile tea cup would perform poorly if used as a utilitarian mixing bowl and the bowl would be awkward and messy, let alone terribly unsatisfying, if expected to provide refinement and comfort.

 

IMO, that is the key - rather than dwelling on unproductive comparisons and who can stretch the most to fit a round peg in a square hole, we are much better served by each focusing on our own unique abilities.

 

I don't disagree at all that men and women are different. I don't even disagree with your metaphor--and goodness know I used it often enough when I was discipling and teaching women about this scripture.

 

This is where we part ways. You extrapolate it out to, "woman, stay in your place" from that. . . NO. Only in the spiritual realm can genitalia be the sole determiner deciding whether one is "better served" in their choices of pursuits, skills, talents, and service. "Don't presume to do [this thing] you have every ability to do, woman. You're a square peg, you don't fit the round hole."

 

And, I certainly have heard, from very decent people who use that verse to claim that women are emotionally more fragile than men, and intellectually less strong than men. From women! And it has only been with in the last 50 years or so that your view of this passage has become more popular.

 

Once I supported your view. And I know it well.

 

Now I don't.

[Tiramisu]

We're Catholic, so it's a non-issue for us. The Church will never ordain women to the ministry. This is an infallible teaching.

 

That said, women have always had a tremendous role in building up the Catholic Church. They've been founders of movements, teachers, mystics, philosophers, servants of the poor, and much more. We believe that there are many ways for women to live out their vocation to motherhood and wife-hood, whether in a literal or spiritual sense. But being a Father isn't one of them.

 

:iagree: