New to the game - how to handle

[Amy loves Bud]

We have homeschooled from day 1, and my DS 12 is in PS 6th grade for the first time ever. He's doing really well, and likes it a lot.

 

My issue - English. We are maybe 13 or 14 weeks into the school year and so far they have learned the parts of speech, the list of prepositions, the list of helping verbs (all things he learned by 2nd grade in FLL) and how to punctuate quotes (learned in 4th maybe?). They've written three papers - one a narrative describing their best birthday, one comparing and contrasting the cultural setting of two short stories, and the other a creative story to demonstrate the use of proper punctuation of quotations.

 

The class is double-blocked, so they spend over 1.5 hours each day in there. So the above occupied about 10% of that time, I'm guessing. The other 90% is spent on literary analysis.

 

I believe that in 6th grade they should be learning grammar inside and out and focusing on becoming adept at writing.

 

I am supplementing his grammar work at home, but writing is a time-consuming subject, and between homework, soccer and orchestra, I don't have the heart to make him do a writing program, too.

 

I want to approach the teacher/school about this, but I'm not sure the best way to go about it, or even if I should. We are in Texas, so TEKS determines course content. Would it be a waste of time? If not, how should I approach it?

[MIch elle]

My ds is attending school for the first time in gr. 8 and they are doing NO grammar that I know of. If my ds doesn't do any grammar this year, I KNOW he will forget it all. UGH!

[MBM]

When I ask a teacher to add or tweak assignments, I bring in material or texts, explain why I like it, and then see how she responds. Most of the time I just ask if it would be okay for my son to do it after he's finished other assignments.

 

Like Michelle, my son is in 8th, too. Grammar lessons are abysmal and have been since 6th grade. Writing is even worse.

 

For writing, I recently bought and received (today) the Don Killgallon books for middle (5th through 8th) and high school. I think these are going to be just the ticket for us. From what I've looked at so far, the activities/lessons don't seem like they will be too time-consuming, maybe 20 to 60 minutes at most? The book is small, too, so it will be easy to schlep to school. Keep in mind that this doesn't all have to be finished in one year. It could even be done during summer.

 

Middle school has four main parts with each part having a number of activities:

 

1. Sentence Unscrambling (8 activities / lessons)

2. Sentence Imitating (12 activities / lessons)

3. Sentence Combining (6 activities / lessons)

4. Sentence Expanding (7 activities / lessons)

 

Here's the Amazon link.

 

For grammar I use Rod and Staff. Excluding writing, it's about 70 lessons which I spread out over a year. I allow my son to circle, underline or just tell me the answers. R&S has worked very well for us.

 

Anyhoo, hope you find a good solution!

[SonshineLearner]

Well, your son may be ready for more.. but I'd consider it lucky that they are doing what they're doing... in PS right now :)

[AmyinMD]

My dd is in ps for the first time in 7th grade. So far this year they've done a vocab list each week. There are 10 words and each week they do a pretest, posttest, and worksheet to write a sentence with a picture.

 

All they've done for grammar was have a quiz on the parts of speech definitions. There are no spelling tests.

 

She has done two "essays" on her 3 favorite things and what dd likes about a carnival. Both were less than a page typed and she got high As on both so I assume they are similar to what other students turned in. There have been a few other small writing assignments but they were very short.

 

There is one book project per term. Last term the kids made a book cover for a book they read. That took dd several hours but the teacher barely seemed to look at it. There were no corrections on it at all other than putting a "B" at the top. We have no idea what dd could have done to improve her grade to an A.

 

Dd has LA for 45 min on A Days and 90 min on B Days so it really seems like they should be expecting more. I think they spend way too much time on the darn vocab lists. That is the bulk of the homework she has gotten.

 

My dd is a poke when it comes to schoolwork. Her homework is supposed to be no more than 75 min a night on all subjects but she usually spends at least 3 hours (mostly on math). She is easily distracted and just a slow worker so there is no way I feel I could add afterschooling except maybe during the summer.

[Amy loves Bud]

Wow. I am surprised to hear that grammar seems to be a big missing piece for everyone. I was all prepared to supplement math at home, but I can say that his preAP math has been excellent and I'm very happy with everything they are doing in there.

 

He even confided to me this week that he is worried that he's not getting adequate writing or grammar instruction.

 

We'll continue with the grammar supplementation, but I'm not sure how we'll handle writing. It may have to be done in summer.

 

Thanks for the responses!

[TracyR]

Not just a public school thing. Private school as well. I don't care how they teach writing at our school either.

They have 1st graders writing sentences, but what my daughter comes home with I barely understand what she wrote because its riddled with misspelled words. To me I would think that spelling and grammar and copywork and dictation should be taught first. Because once they spell those words wrong they will always think its the way its spelled.

[vickiMD]

I have to post to say that I also viewed my first graders journal work as a bunch of misspelled words on a page that I can hardly read but after my teacher conference last night I view it a lot differently.

 

She pointed out to me how great her writing was (once you deciphered it)....example; the teacher read a story in the morning and my DD independently without a prompt made up a story of her own that mirrored the technique that the morning story used (can't remember the term but the author told a story, provided an opinion about it and ended by asking the reader a question). She also uses a lot of descriptive words and longer sentences ("I like red apples better than green and yellow." vs. "I like apples"). Stories had a beginning, middle, and an end with main ideas and supporting statements even though she has no idea what a main idea or supporting statement is. She also has been going back to add details and rewrite previous stories to make them better.

 

The misspelled words really do drive me crazy but I do feel that she will eventually learn to spell better and I am proud of her writing.

 

Just wanted to provide a possibly new perspective on it all....

[Spy Car]

Wow. I am surprised to hear that grammar seems to be a big missing piece for everyone. I was all prepared to supplement math at home, but I can say that his preAP math has been excellent and I'm very happy with everything they are doing in there.

 

He even confided to me this week that he is worried that he's not getting adequate writing or grammar instruction.

 

We'll continue with the grammar supplementation, but I'm not sure how we'll handle writing. It may have to be done in summer.

 

Thanks for the responses!

 

This is pretty typical of public school education these days I'm sorry to say.

 

Have you looked at the Michael Clay Thompson (MCT) materials? This is what we are planning on using. They has a reputation for not only being quite strong, but are also time-efficient and fun (and parent involved).

 

Bill

[LibraryLover]

Have you read/heard SBW's opinions/ lectures on what it takes to write well? All of those writing assignments so many teachers assign in the middle grades (in public and private schools) doesn't seem to translate into students turning into good writers. Could less (depending on what the less is) be more?

 

www.welltrainedmind.com/store/audio-products/audio-lectures.html

Edited November 23, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Amy loves Bud]

When I ask a teacher to add or tweak assignments, I bring in material or texts, explain why I like it, and then see how she responds. Most of the time I just ask if it would be okay for my son to do it after he's finished other assignments.

 

Like Michelle, my son is in 8th, too. Grammar lessons are abysmal and have been since 6th grade. Writing is even worse.

 

For writing, I recently bought and received (today) the Don Killgallon books for middle (5th through 8th) and high school. I think these are going to be just the ticket for us. From what I've looked at so far, the activities/lessons don't seem like they will be too time-consuming, maybe 20 to 60 minutes at most? The book is small, too, so it will be easy to schlep to school. Keep in mind that this doesn't all have to be finished in one year. It could even be done during summer.

 

Middle school has four main parts with each part having a number of activities:

 

1. Sentence Unscrambling (8 activities / lessons)

2. Sentence Imitating (12 activities / lessons)

3. Sentence Combining (6 activities / lessons)

4. Sentence Expanding (7 activities / lessons)

 

Here's the Amazon link.

 

For grammar I use Rod and Staff. Excluding writing, it's about 70 lessons which I spread out over a year. I allow my son to circle, underline or just tell me the answers. R&S has worked very well for us.

 

Anyhoo, hope you find a good solution!

 

Well, there would be no time for doing additional assignments in class. They are very "busy" in there.

 

I will investigate the Killgallon curriculum, though I'm partial to Classical Writing. There is always greener grass somewhere. Thanks for the nice breakdown!

[Amy loves Bud]

This is pretty typical of public school education these days I'm sorry to say.

 

Have you looked at the Michael Clay Thompson (MCT) materials? This is what we are planning on using. They has a reputation for not only being quite strong, but are also time-efficient and fun (and parent involved).

 

Bill

 

You guys and the tempting with new curriculum. Killing. Me.

 

Okay, I will look at it. It seems to be very well-liked around here. Thanks for the suggestion and the commiseration.

Edited November 24, 2010 by Amy loves Bud

[Amy loves Bud]

Have you read/heard SBW's opinions/ lectures on what it takes to write well? All of those writing assignments so many teachers assign in the middle grades (in public and private schools) doesn't seem to translate into students turning into good writers. Could less (depending on what the less is) be more?

 

www.welltrainedmind.com/store/audio-products/audio-lectures.html

 

I have listened to them very thoroughly. But really I don't think there could be much less. He's actually getting better writing assignments in History than in English. It is a good idea to go back and listen to those lectures and see if there is a way to get more writing practice from what he's doing in history and science. Then we can simply view his English class as "enrichment", lol!

[Amy loves Bud]

let him do all other activities other than studying in summer holidays!! in summer holidays he can learn soccer and orchestra and for now he can stud. it would be better for him..

 

:confused:

 

Nothing would destroy my son faster than making him give up his two loves for nine months of the year so he can learn grammar.

 

Sports and music are vital to becoming a well-educated and well-rounded individual. There is no way that it could be better for him, or anyone, to have those relegated to summer only.

[Spy Car]

You guys and the tempting with new curriculum. Killing. Me.

 

Okay, I will look at it. It seems to be very well-liked around here.

 

You will need to teach grammar. They won't be teaching it a school (most likly). Some of the other grammar choices popular here would. Kill. Me. :D

 

Might as well enjoy yourself.

 

Bill

[Amy loves Bud]

You will need to teach grammar. They won't be teaching it a school (most likly). Some of the other grammar choices popular here would. Kill. Me. :D

 

Might as well enjoy yourself.

 

Bill

 

:lol: I hope you are not referring to my grammar love, Analytical Grammar? Say it isn't so.

[Amy loves Bud]

You will need to teach grammar. They won't be teaching it a school (most likly). Some of the other grammar choices popular here would. Kill. Me. :D

 

Might as well enjoy yourself.

 

Bill

 

Oh, but if you are talking about a very popular choice around here that begins with an "R" and ends with "od and Staff", I am sooooo with you. :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

:confused:

 

Nothing would destroy my son faster than making him give up his two loves for nine months of the year so he can learn grammar.

 

Sports and music are vital to becoming a well-educated and well-rounded individual. There is no way that it could be better for him, or anyone, to have those relegated to summer only.

 

I'm with you. That is why the after schooling programs need to be efficient, smart and inspiring (rather than spirit-killers). Boys need time to play football et al.

 

Bill

[Caroline]

I have listened to them very thoroughly. But really I don't think there could be much less. He's actually getting better writing assignments in History than in English. It is a good idea to go back and listen to those lectures and see if there is a way to get more writing practice from what he's doing in history and science. Then we can simply view his English class as "enrichment", lol!

 

My son also gets more writing in history than English. However, his school aligns the English and history classes. This year they are doing World History and European Lit. Next year they will do American History and American Lit. His writing improved immensely his freshman year. His dad and I are both really impressed with his writing now.

 

And I agree that sports and music should not be taken away. I cannot imagine any of my kids if they couldn't spend hours each week on the pitch.

[Spy Car]

Oh, but if you are talking about a very popular choice around here that begins with an "R" and ends with "od and Staff", I am sooooo with you. :001_smile:

 

That is kind of where I was going :D

 

Bill

[MBM]

LOL. Hey, I have to use something even if it is Odandstaffray! :D

 

Okay, so I see that is out for you. I agree with Bill about MCT which I would have used way back when if I had only known about it. I know Northwestern U has used it in its G&T program for young-uns. I might also buy Analytic Grammar this year just to keep on hand.

 

As for writing, I began with Classical Writing, but it was too involved for us. I do love the idea of following the progymnasmata, though. Killgallon's book is similar in that the initial exercises involve modeling. Thereafter, I'm not sure it's quite the same.

 

Good luck!

[Amy loves Bud]

LOL. Hey, I have to use something even if it is Odandstaffray! :D

 

Okay, so I see that is out for you. I agree with Bill about MCT which I would have used way back when if I had only known about it. I know Northwestern U has used it in its G&T program for young-uns. I might also buy Analytic Grammar this year just to keep on hand.

 

As for writing, I began with Classical Writing, but it was too involved for us. I do love the idea of following the progymnasmata, though. Killgallon's book is similar in that the initial exercises involve modeling. Thereafter, I'm not sure it's quite the same.

 

Good luck!

 

:D I know almost everyone loves it but me!

 

I have Analytical Grammar and the way it is set up in seasons is nice, because I can do the seasons during the summer and review and reinforcement during the school year. The review and reinforcement takes very little time.

 

I know what you mean about Classical Writing. I do love the way it teaches the writer to really be confident in manipulating their words. But it is pretty involved and time-consuming for afterschooling. I will be checking out Killgallon for sure, along with looking at what Luke is doing in science and history and seeing if I can teach writing through that.

 

Thanks for the tips!

[Amy loves Bud]

 

Have you looked at the Michael Clay Thompson (MCT) materials?

 

Bill

 

Holy Crap, Batman! I love this! I just ordered the "Town" series to use with DD10, and I'll quickly go through the Paragraph Town section with Luke first - since we did CW, he needs a quick boost on that. Then I'll get the "Voyage" series for him if we like it.

 

Okay, I need to remember that whenever something is All The Rage, there is a reason for it.

 

-Amy, who is now enjoying life with Math Mammoth and anticipating her MCT shipment

[Spy Car]

Holy Crap, Batman! I love this! I just ordered the "Town" series to use with DD10, and I'll quickly go through the Paragraph Town section with Luke first - since we did CW, he needs a quick boost on that. Then I'll get the "Voyage" series for him if we like it.

 

Okay, I need to remember that whenever something is All The Rage, there is a reason for it.

 

-Amy, who is now enjoying life with Math Mammoth and anticipating her MCT shipment

 

I'm really chomping at the bit to use MCT (but must remain patient). I actually decided to use MCT as a long-range plan several years ago when Moira was the only person I knew who was using it. My eyes lit up seeing the samples back then. This was language arts, grammar, vocabulary, and poetics in a package of "my dreams."

 

Since then MCT has gone from obscurity to All The Rage, and all the glowing reviews make the anticipation increase.

 

I'm very happy you love it Amy. This is not the kind of program or type of education they are likely to get in a public or private school (unless they are extremely fortunate). I will enjoy hearing about your experiences moving forward as we wait on our little-man to be ready to start himself. Till then we will live vicariously through you :001_smile:

 

Bill

[stripe]

Well, I have no memory of studying grammar as a major subject of discussion until 11th grade. I had a very elderly teacher who used some old textbooks from the 60s.

 

I have also never seen Rod and Staff!

 

Recently I found this at a library book sale, and I must say, I'm in lurrve; it appears to be aimed at 7th graders.

 

Words and Ideas (7)

The Macmillan English Series

(It has a gray cover)

1960 edition

(first edition from 1954)

 

by

Thomas Clark Pollack, Dean and Professor of English, Washington Square College, New York University

Robert W. Rounds, Professor of English, State University Teachers College, Oneonta, New York

 

Chapters are:

 

1. Sentences

2. Conversation and Making Friends

(Includes: Opening a conversation, good listening, interrupting courteously, and telephoning)

3. Verbs

4. Social Letters

5. Using Nouns and Pronouns

6. How to Organize a Club

(Includes making a motion and the order of business)

7. More About Verb Usage

8. Using Language Effectively

(Includes asking questions, answering questions exactly, and how to make announcements)

9. Correct Use of Adjectives and Adverbs

10. Giving a Talk

11. Prepositions and Prepositional Phrases

12. Reading Aloud and Choral Reading

13. Conjunctions and Compound Constructions

14. Solving Problems by Discussion

15. Punctuation and Capitalization

16. Writing Business Letters

(Includes how to send a telegram!)

17. Making Good Sentences

18. Explaining, Telling, Dramatizing

19. Words and the Dictionary

20. Getting and Sharing Information

(Includes finding material outside of books, finding material in the library, making a bibliography, taking notes, and an outline for your report)

21. Paragraphs

22. Silent Reading

Appendix: Spelling

 

I wonder if you find other, similar older texts, if they might assist? I included the table of contents to give you an idea of what's covered. Diagramming is covered, over a long period of time, building up from simple sentences.

[Spy Car]

Well, I have no memory of studying grammar as a major subject of discussion until 11th grade. I had a very elderly teacher who used some old textbooks from the 60s.

 

 

The thing about the MCT materials is that by all accounts of users is they take the subject out of a very austere format of rules to be learned, and instead try to make children understand the beauty and reasoning of the language. The teaching involves a lot of Socratic Method with involvement of the parent. Any many parents report their children get inspired by the lessons and even bring them into their "play life" not to mention their academic work.

 

Grammar, vocabulary, and poetry are not always subjects children find "fun." This is the one program I've seen that I can see inspiring the sort of love of language that I would like to be a part of my son's life growing up, rather than a subject one hopes they will get (praying they will have at least one old die-hard teacher) before they finish their schooling.

 

Bill

Edited November 27, 2010 by Spy Car

[stripe]

I've still got my old notes, though. Luckily for me they were xeroxed and not done in that weird stinky purple-inked ditto machines (remember those?).

[Spy Car]

I've still got my old notes, though. Luckily for me they were xeroxed and not done in that weird stinky purple-inked ditto machines (remember those?).

 

Oh yes I do. Mimeographs. I liked the weird smell.

 

Bill (old)

[Amy loves Bud]

I've still got my old notes, though. Luckily for me they were xeroxed and not done in that weird stinky purple-inked ditto machines (remember those?).

 

I loved sticking them right up to my nose and taking a big whiff. It was always best if the teacher had done the mimeographing (mimeography?) right before class and the papers were just slightly damp.

 

:001_smile:

[Amy loves Bud]

The thing about the MCT materials is that by all accounts of users is they take the subject out of a very austere format of rules to be learned, and instead try to make children understand the beauty and reasoning if the language. The teaching involves a lot of Socratic Method with involvement of the parent. Any many parents report their children get inspired by the lessons and even bring them into their "play life" not to mention their academic work.

 

Grammar, vocabulary, and poetry are not always subjects children find "fun." This is the one program I've seen that I can see inspiring the sort of love of language that I would like to be a part of my son's life growing up, rather than a subject one hopes they will get (praying they will have at least one old die-hard teacher) before they finish their schooling.

 

Bill

 

This is exactly it. I went to a very small town high school with pretty traditional methods of teaching. However, in certain classes, English mainly, it was a drill and kill situation. We learned grammar early on, but many of my classmate didn't retain it because they hated it.

 

I will never forget trying to tutor my friend, Karen, for our senior English final because she was worried she would fail and not graduate. She had no recall of what a noun was! I know it was taught over many years because I was in her class. It was just taught in a dry and miserable way.

 

There is such a lovely combination of logic and art and history in our language. I want my kids to grasp that and carry it with them thoughout their lives.

 

Karen graduated, btw, but I am suspicious that her grade was curved. ;)

[mcconnellboys]

I think the time constraints are precisely the reason schools don't really teach writing in depth any longer. There's not time for the students to do a proper job of it and the teachers don't want to take the time to read all those papers to grade them, either. The private high school my son attended from tenth on did not do a good job with writing AT ALL. Even in AP classes they did virtually NO writing!

[mich311e]

I'm really chomping at the bit to use MCT (but must remain patient). I actually decided to use MCT as a long-range plan several years ago

 

Bill

 

Bill - At what age/grade level will you start MCT? I've looked at the website but got confused with it all, is it 3rd grade?

 

Thanks!

[Spy Car]

Bill - At what age/grade level will you start MCT? I've looked at the website but got confused with it all, is it 3rd grade?

 

Thanks!

 

Usually it is suggested as 3rd. I'm not sure if we will make a gentle start next year (2nd) or just be patient and wait. I will no doubt be seeking the opinions of the Hive Mind on this matter. My understanding is some of the later years are more demanding so one may not want to get too ahead of themselves. However, it might be relaxing (given school pressures) to be able to just take a nice slow pace if we start easy and early. Just don't know.

 

Bill

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

How about doing writing in the Summer?

 

:iagree: and perhaps weekends?

[mich311e]

Usually it is suggested as 3rd. I'm not sure if we will make a gentle start next year (2nd) or just be patient and wait. I will no doubt be seeking the opinions of the Hive Mind on this matter. My understanding is some of the later years are more demanding so one may not want to get too ahead of themselves. However, it might be relaxing (given school pressures) to be able to just take a nice slow pace if we start easy and early. Just don't know.

 

Bill

 

Thanks! I think my son is the same grade as yours, 1st. I know we need to cover grammar somehow. I'm trying FLL but it's slow going. And my son doesn't really want to do the memorization which is fine, he'd rather memorize Ben Franklin quotes.

[Concerned Mom]

Amy what part of Texas are you residing in? Public schools barely do the bare minimum from my experience here in Texas. I have to supplement. My son learned parts of speech the first nine weeks and that was it. He is in 3rd grade. I purchased a Voyages in English textbook and practice worksheet guide, with an answer key. I am tutoring and teaching him the curriculum they are using at his previous Catholic school in English. For vocabulary I have Vocabulary workshop soft cover book that provides a list of words, how they are pronounced, parts of speech, definitions, with their synonyms and antonyms. He also uses a website connected to the lessons so he can play games online to reinforce what he has learned. In public school his teacher has been working on prefixes for two semesters. This is the vocabulary lesson. I am seriously sending him back to private.

[Amy loves Bud]

Amy what part of Texas are you residing in? Public schools barely do the bare minimum from my experience here in Texas. I have to supplement. My son learned parts of speech the first nine weeks and that was it. He is in 3rd grade. I purchased a Voyages in English textbook and practice worksheet guide, with an answer key. I am tutoring and teaching him the curriculum they are using at his previous Catholic school in English. For vocabulary I have Vocabulary workshop soft cover book that provides a list of words, how they are pronounced, parts of speech, definitions, with their synonyms and antonyms. He also uses a website connected to the lessons so he can play games online to reinforce what he has learned. In public school his teacher has been working on prefixes for two semesters. This is the vocabulary lesson. I am seriously sending him back to private.

 

I'm in the northern Dallas suburbs.

 

I'm sorry things aren't going so well with your son's English education either. I'm very puzzled by how uniform this issue (based on the small sample here). My son likes school, and it is a good place for him right now because he was kind of wilting here at home - he needed the opportunity to stretch beyond home a bit more than was happening. It's been so much fun watching him grow in new ways this year and we will continue to support him by filling in the gaps when needed. Even though sometimes I want to pull out my hair about it!

[Dana]

Usually it is suggested as 3rd. I'm not sure if we will make a gentle start next year (2nd) or just be patient and wait. I will no doubt be seeking the opinions of the Hive Mind on this matter. My understanding is some of the later years are more demanding so one may not want to get too ahead of themselves. However, it might be relaxing (given school pressures) to be able to just take a nice slow pace if we start easy and early. Just don't know.

 

Bill

 

Just as my opinion... we're using Island level and are having no trouble completing the course within the year. We're using all the components (although I really need to get back to poetry!). I think I would recommend waiting until 3rd grade or past mid-year of 2nd at least.

 

Spending time with parts of speech in 2nd grade (hello, Schoolhouse Rock) would be useful as preparation.