Moms of engineers

[johnandtinagilbert]

What is your suggested high course load?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

plenty of math, standard science, and LOTS of languages.

 

I tell my son now is the time for him to study languages. He'll get the appropriate advance sciences in college, but he will not get languages there.

 

We discussed astronauts to show him the need for languages.

Julie Payette is a local astronaut. Here's part of her wikipedia entry:

Payette is a French Canadian, who is fluent in French and English. She also speaks some Spanish, German, Italian and Russian.[

 

We also noted when we went to visit NASA in Florida that most astronauts speak more than English, especially with the International Space Station.

 

Since DH and I are both engineers, it was also easy to discuss how many foreigners we deal with. DH has a possibility to be transferred to Germany (although we're not really considering it).

 

High school is the time to put some languages under his belt.

[regentrude]

I'm not a mom of an engineer, but I teach engineering students.

One recommendation I have: make sure he gets a rock solid math (esp. algebra) foundation.

One of the most common factors contributing to students not succeeding in college classes like physics is a lack of basic algebra and trigonometry skills. Not calculus, not anything fancy - but simple things like systems of equations, quadratics, etc. They need to be able to do this stuff without spending a lot of time pondering how to figure it out -otherwise they are so hung up in the math that the can't focus on the physics.

(You would not believe the horrible math mistakes I see every week)

[Gwen in VA]

math.....MaTh.....MATH

 

A STRONG math background is imperative.

 

Preferably your child will make it to calculus 1 -- even if he chooses not to test out of calculus 1 in college (separate discussion), exposure to calculus before college for engineers is pretty standard. Also, for the top schools, almost everyone has already taken calculus, though they may take it again.

 

Your child should quite possibly plan on taking the SAT2 math level 1 and level 2 exams to show proficiency.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Biology, chemistry, physics, and then either AP physics or AP chemistry. And if your child is interested, pursue AP environmental science or science fairs or.....

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Writing. Strong writing skills are a surprisingly useful skill in engineering -- think writing proposals and writing requirement documents.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Some computer programming. I am not assuming that your child is interested in computer programming, or even that he will ever have to use the programming skills directly, but some exposure to basic programming skills is very important. As a engineer, he will deal with computers and with results from computer programs. If he has a familiarity with programming, he will be aware of the types of assumptions people must make in programming and how results can get messed up. He will also have a better idea of whether the program that he is asking someone to write or fix is an easy or extremely challenging task.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

For mechanical and civil engineering -- some familiarity with CAD and/or mechanical drawing shows colleges that the student can visualize in 3-D, an important skill in those areas.

[Miss Marple]

math.....MaTh.....MATH

 

A STRONG math background is imperative.

 

Preferably your child will make it to calculus 1 -- even if he chooses not to test out of calculus 1 in college (separate discussion), exposure to calculus before college for engineers is pretty standard. Also, for the top schools, almost everyone has already taken calculus, though they may take it again.

 

Your child should quite possibly plan on taking the SAT2 math level 1 and level 2 exams to show proficiency.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Biology, chemistry, physics, and then either AP physics or AP chemistry. And if your child is interested, pursue AP environmental science or science fairs or.....

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Writing. Strong writing skills are a surprisingly useful skill in engineering -- think writing proposals and writing requirement documents.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Some computer programming. I am not assuming that your child is interested in computer programming, or even that he will ever have to use the programming skills directly, but some exposure to basic programming skills is very important. As a engineer, he will deal with computers and with results from computer programs. If he has a familiarity with programming, he will be aware of the types of assumptions people must make in programming and how results can get messed up. He will also have a better idea of whether the program that he is asking someone to write or fix is an easy or extremely challenging task.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

For mechanical and civil engineering -- some familiarity with CAD and/or mechanical drawing shows colleges that the student can visualize in 3-D, an important skill in those areas.

 

 

:iagree: Math, IMO, is the single most important course. Work to get through Calculus 1 by graduation (we used concurrent enrollment). Ds would have been better equipped with another computer course. He took the basic applications course required for all freshman, but it wasn't enough for the amount of Excel he has to do. A good basic physics course in high school is also a must. Further physics would be great. Depending on the type of engineering, a student would be well served with extra science in that area - Chemical engineering - more chemistry; petroleum engineering - more geology, etc.

[Brigid in NC]

The three most meaningful suggestions in our experience:

 

1) If your student is strong and interested in sci/math, start the high school sequence early (in middle school), so you can fit in advanced classes (a second year of chem and/or physics).

 

2) Get as much of the traditional math sequence in as possible. If you go the CC route, it is possible to get in more math, because of the semester-per-course structure. For us, CC math classes in 11th/12th grades provided the opportunity to get in Calc 1/2/3, providing a strong foundation for college. Your student doesn't HAVE to use the credits for college (can back up and retake); it provides options.

 

3) At my ds's college, chemistry is a "weeder" class that is intentionally extremely difficult. If your student can get CC chemistry before [4-yr] college, it will provide a strong foundation for chem in [4-yr] college or permit your student to opt out through transfer credits.

 

Best of luck :001_smile:

[Julie in MN]

My son is a petroleum engineer who works with natural gas. He was public schooled with an involved mom at home :)

 

I agree with math math math. Math extras and honors, if you can (my son was in a special university program in 8th grade which raised eyebrows- they did both algebra I and II that year). And like the others have mentioned, it's not a matter of getting ahead in math or getting math requirements done early. Instead it's building a strong base and confirming a suitability for spending a lifetime with math puzzles. My son could have tested out of one calculus credit, but he felt the engineering calc was worth taking it for the third time :). So all his math prep didn't put him ahead, but gave him solid skills.

 

My particular son only took science thru 11th grade physics, and not in a competitive high school, so I'm not sure what's essential there.

 

My boys are quite computer savvy so maybe that helped, I'm not sure. My oldest son didn't really take computer classes in high school, but he runs data on two different monitors at once at work, and my youngest is able to display different windows onto different monitors at home. So I imagine computer skills beyond what I know how to do can be useful. :~

 

 

Some other things that helped him were good communication skills, both written and face-to-face. The college (CSM) mentioned they were looking for candidates who had not spent their lives in books. And his employer really emphasizes group skills, sending their employees to trainings and listing these skills on yearly reviews.

 

Julie

Edited October 31, 2010 by Julie in MN

[laundrycrisis]

I am an engineer (but no longer working).

 

As much math as they can get into - it will all be put to good use.

 

Also if a person can get through some of the harder memorization and math parts of physics and chemistry before taking them at college, it will be much easier to get through the college courses.

 

Chemistry I was a weed-out class at my school...but I was fortunate to have had an excellent and demanding chemistry teacher in high school...my high school chemistry class was actually more intimidating and challenging that the Chem I class at college, so I had no problem with it. The two physics courses I had to take were much more difficult for me, because I had not taken any physics in high school.

[Dana]

One of the most common factors contributing to students not succeeding in college classes like physics is a lack of basic algebra and trigonometry skills. Not calculus, not anything fancy - but simple things like systems of equations, quadratics, etc. They need to be able to do this stuff without spending a lot of time pondering how to figure it out -otherwise they are so hung up in the math that the can't focus on the physics.

(You would not believe the horrible math mistakes I see every week)

 

I've taught the Calc I class at our cc. Students flunk it hard for the basic algebra skills: exponential rules, fractions (put the two together and it's horrid), and not knowing trig rules (basic definitions from unit circle in particular). If they can do the arithmetic without a calculator quickly & accurately, they'll be much better off.

[Janice in NJ]

Tina,

 

I think the other gals mentioned something about math. :001_smile:

 

Yup! Agreeing here.

 

Math

If the learning style fits your child, I would recommend Chalkdust with Dana Mosely. Thorough instruction. And the child will learn to function with the classroom method: read, watch a lecture taking notes, work problems, and seek help on the problems he doesn't understand. If you purchase the program from Chalkdust, you get support; teach your kids to seek out the prof when he needs help. A valuable college-level skill. Depending on the child and his/her course-load, I set aside 75 to 90 minutes a day for math in high school.

 

I like Thinkwell as well. I coupled it with Lial's for Alg I & II for my oldest. We switched to Chalkdust during PreCalculus though. Larson's text is pretty common for Calculus; it made sense to use it for PreCalculus.

 

In either case, do your best to get him prepped for Calculus by his senior year. DON'T skimp on his foundation. If he isn't ready, he isn't ready. But do your best to get there.

 

Science

With used BJU with the DVD's for Biology, Chemistry, and Physics. It worked well here. Try to shoot for completion with that core by the end of 11th grade. Take an advanced science with lab in 12th grade. We set aside 90 minutes a day for science in high school. Additional time is needed to prep for the SAT II during the year that we do it.

 

TRY to see if you can locate an outside teacher for either math or science in 12th grade. Some of the colleges on our list want teacher recommendations. Some prefer that it comes from a math or science teacher. Ds is taking AP calc online and Advanced Chemistry online so we're all set. Just an FYI though. As with most "requirements," I've found that so far colleges have shrugged their shoulders if we don't have (this) or can't do (that). So I wouldn't stress about it. But they did list it so I'm passing that along.

 

Also - take a look at your student's strengths in junior high. Life science, chem, or physics? Math? Then plan for an SAT II in either math, science, or both in high school. You don't need an SAT II in all of them. Just pick-n-choose. Pick one and start working toward that goal in September of that year. If spring comes and there is NO way you can pull it off successfully (with a good score) then don't do it. But it is a good thing to work toward. Primarily only the top schools require SAT II's. Really. But they all seem to be comforted by them - especially from homeschoolers. I suspect that it loosens the coffers for merit aid as well. So it's worth working toward if you think you can pull it off.

 

Psst. Try not to see testing in high school as your enemy. Really. It's awful! Not fun! It's easy to gripe about it. But it's the lay of the land. Rather than resist it, I would recommend that you just prep for it. I have found that resisting testing (for a host of moral, ethical, or just really good reasons) isn't a hill worth dying on! Just climb it! Later when I'm done with this process and I have more energy, I will commit to picketing about something I care about. For now, we are just climbing. :001_smile:

 

Computer

My older son has had a great experience with CADD classes with Maury Middleton at The Potter's School. He took the Mechanical Engineering I CADD course last year and is taking the Advanced CADD for ME this year. Terrific instructor. Very thorough. Organized. Responsive. Top notch! Auto Desk JUST came out with software for MAC; ds had to use a PC last year and going into this year. It's been good; he needed to learn the Windows operating system. BUT we did have to purchase a PC in order to do the course last year. So it's been a pricey class. So when I say it's been worth it, that's saying a lot! (Apparently I'm pretty tough to please with online classes. We have a 50% success rate so far. Seven classes get a thumbs-down; seven get a thumbs-up. And five of the seven no-gos were a BIG thumbs-down - and I'm being generous with the other two. :001_smile:) Anyway; Middleton's class has been an important piece for my son. He will be majoring in ME in college; Middleton's class was an important piece in that decision.

 

Younger ds is taking Java Programming at TPS this year. He begged for the class; eventually, he wants to build some iPhone apps on his own so he wanted a stronger background in Java. So far the class has been very well done IMO. The assignments have been do-able. The teacher seems very organized - the class seems to be planned well. The prof has been very responsive and helpful when my little guy gets stuck. (That matters a TON in an online class. A TON!) Looking at the feedback my little guy received on his 1st assignment, it looks like this course is going to be a winner. I hope so! ;)

 

Believe it or not, all online classes are not created the same. There are plenty of courses that require a TON of involvement on that part of the parent. NOT what I'm looking for in an online course. I have NO problem being in the loop to check to see that the assignment has been completed. Checking - NOT hovering over content; I will CHECK and require the child to "sit in that chair until this is done!" But I expect the teacher to provide enough PERSONALIZED feedback to the student so he and I can correctly judge whether or not the child is doing enough work to be successful in this class. A good class builds week-to-week. Drop the ball for the first three months and you will be drowning by February. IMO a good instructor builds a certain level of individual accountability into his earlier assignments; this helps the student judge his pace and his output. AND I can glance at his grades and the instructor feedback and quickly decide if the child is holding up his end of the bargain. Is he doing enough work and is the time spent productive or is this kid either goofing around or running in circles? As the parent, I can help/require/force the child to adjust his pace to match the teacher's expectations. Great training. Remove the teacher's oversight on some personalized level week to week and I have NOTHING to go on as the parent. I HAVE TO STEP IN and guess. Where is the bar here? Is this kid over it or under it?

 

My kids work well toward a specific goal. They are not self-starters in all areas. They don't embrace all subjects with unbounded enthusiasm. I have no desire to debate this with anyone. I've asked about this. Apparently my kids are in the minority. Apparently there are plenty of kids who diligently work hard on their own even when NO one is checking. My kids seek the lowest point when no one is checking. :glare: So it helps to know your kids when you choose online courses. For us - especially in subjects I have NO desire to be involved in - it is important that the online class is designed to provide regular personalized instructor feedback. THAT helps me "parent" ONLY which is what works for us. I can say things like, "Sorry. You're stuck in your chair until this is done. Bummer for you; you should have planned ahead." AND the kid knows that if he shirks, I'll know it. Perfect for us. Eventually they quit shirking and rise up and grow it! Eventually they are all stepping into the place where they don't need me. Works well here. Plenty of folks have indicated that their kids do fine without this kind of oversight. We need the training wheels. So it helps to know your kids.

 

Humanities

This mattered to me. So my "engineer" has lots of strong credits in the humanities on his transcript. He likes to read. He likes to discuss what he has read. (As I typed this, he sat down next to me to share a line from a book he is reading for fun. Just to share it; he was giggling and wanted to share the joy. Yea for that GREAT foundation!) We have a subscription to the Economist; he's the only kid in my house who picks it up on his own - usually the day it arrives. His coursework in the humanities for his senior year? NOT what I would have expected when I started out on this journey. BUT I've learned that it's not about me. So I'm cool. He is taking Freshman Comp at the CC this fall. And he is working through Thinkwell Economics without me. SO that means he is doing NO 20th century history and NO 20th century literature in his senior year. This SMACKS of apostasy as a classical homeschooler. It was tough for me to do it! Painful! No cap-stone. Na-da. Deep breaths momma. Deep breaths. It felt like we were ending the symphony with a leading tone instead of the tonic. I felt like I was hanging. I was wrong! Oh well. Not the first time, eh? :001_smile:

 

He's fine. Thriving. Happy. He loves driving himself to the CC twice a week for his class. He loves being a part of a class rather than another online virtual class. He likes the environment at the college; I think he especially likes the soda machine and the newly-discovered hot cocoa machine. ;) He LOVES being out of the house. A TERRIFIC experience for him. Perfect.

 

AND there was no way he could have done all the things he wants to do this last year if we had kept the pedal to the floor in the humanities.

 

It's all good! But don't hang onto that TOG too tightly for your engineer. They do need room in their schedule to specialize; AND they deserve it.

 

Testing

And finally. SAT/ACT - they matter. Make prepping for them a regular part of your routine. We start in 10th grade. Other folks start in 9th. Just start. :001_smile:

 

Anyway - long winded of me. And I gotta dash so I'm not going to have time to proof read AGAIN. Hate that! This pace is hustle, hustle. Oh well on that front too, eh?

 

PEACE to you and yours!

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[MorningGlory]

I am not the OP. But a hearty THANK YOU for this post and these wonderful answers.

 

I have just recently started reading threads similar to this one. I am so glad that I have! I am learning a lot...and with plenty of time for my ds to achieve some of these goals and dreams. He will definitely follow an engineering or pure science track. It is good to know what to work toward in high school.

 

Just to put a word in, too. I was an engineering/physics major in college. And Chemistry 1 was by far my most difficult class! Definitely a "weed-out" course at my university, too. I have a feeling that I will make sure that my sons know LOTS of chem before they leave my nest! :)

 

Jetta

[KAR120C]

I've taught the Calc I class at our cc. Students flunk it hard for the basic algebra skills: exponential rules, fractions (put the two together and it's horrid), and not knowing trig rules (basic definitions from unit circle in particular). If they can do the arithmetic without a calculator quickly & accurately, they'll be much better off.

I'll "third" the algebra skills. I'm not an engineer mom (yet?) but I'm a math tutor, and among the kids I tutor by far the most common problem for Calculus is lack of Algebra fluency. It's all the things you've said here, but also not being able to factor quickly (recognizing squares of sums and differences, (a+b)(a-b) problems) and honestly, math facts. If you don't see 81 and immediately think "9^2" you're going to waste a lot of time beating your head against a problem that might have been really straightforward if it were properly simplified.

[Kareni]

You've received plenty of helpful advice (and I have none to offer regarding the engineering aspect as I'm neither an engineer nor the parent of a future engineer); however, I'd like to comment on one point mentioned here:

 

... TRY to see if you can locate an outside teacher for either math or science in 12th grade. Some of the colleges on our list want teacher recommendations.

 

If your goal is to get a letter of recommendation for college applications, I'd suggest locating an outside teacher for an 11th grade class. That way the instructor can get to know your child over the course of an entire year before writing a letter. Many college applications are now submitted in the fall, some as early as November.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[johnandtinagilbert]

:lurk5: :bigear: Ladies, if I could love a stranger, all of your names would be drawn with hearts around them. Thank you so much. I am going to have to sit and digest. Thank you so very much.

[Janice in NJ]

Agreeing here. Ideally a teacher recommendation from a class taken during the junior year would be great. (Yes - ds already received an acceptance with a healthy scholarship decision - all by mid-October. Things start EARLY! And he hasn't even finished testing yet. I WISH we had been done sooner, but we weren't. Once again we just couldn't get ahead of the eight ball. We're fine. I would have preferred to be done sooner rather than later. Life is just the way it is! AND this whole process requires that the KID be a part of the process. Learning to respect their time table can be REALLY tough. But it just works out that way. Isn't life GRAND!!!!????? :001_smile:)

 

Ds will have a recommendation from two teachers from last year (11th grade) but neither is a math or science teacher. The sequence I recommended doesn't put the student in an outside course until the senior year. Bummer, huh? :001_smile:

 

But I agree with Kareni. It is best to have a rec. from a teacher who has spent more than two months with the kid. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.

 

So far it looks like ds will have recs from four teachers. One was 11th grade only. One was 11th & 12th. Two profs have only been working with ds for the past two months.

 

So I agree. More is better. But better doesn't always happen. And it looks like it isn't really going to matter anyway. Ds isn't looking to get into MIT or Cornell or any of the tippy-top schools. He's not a tippy-top student anyway. He is going to make an AWESOME engineer. But he's more interested in application than theory. He actually finds book-work really boring. He does it, and he does well. But he finds theory without application a real yawner. And he doesn't enjoy being in super-competitive environments. For example, he would NOT be happy at a school where students are graded on a curve. He LOVES to share what he knows. AND he loves to work with others to find solutions together. He wouldn't be happy in an environment where his success demands that someone else fail. We're looking to place him in an environment where he fits. A really competitive environment would drive him nuts! He needs to be in an environment where success raises all boats. He'll work ultra-hard to make that happen. :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

 

P.S. The biggest piece of advice I can offer: By doing your due-diligence, you can handle 95% of this junior-high to college thing by just doing the work. The last 5%? The PERFECT application? It will easily take twenty times as much hard work, stress, and anxiety as the previous 95%. I am NOT afraid of hard work. Really! I've done the work. And the jury still isn't out on this thing. We're still in the thick of it. But I'm finding out that unless your kid is over-the-top you really don't have to KILL yourself. Apply yourself toward doing 95% of your guidance counselor job well. Do the work. But don't kill yourself for the last 5%. Gotta leave something to chance, eh? Otherwise we'll all get to the end and have NOTHING to write on our tombstones except a big checkmark. A box with a check mark. What kind of an epitaph is that? ;) After all, there is a REASON that some people skydive!!!!!

 

This isn't directed at Kareni. She's right! A rec from an 11th grade teacher is the best. But so far it looks like we aren't going to need that rec to be from a math/sci teacher. So far it looks like the college we are applying to will be fine with what we have. (Psst. They really do mostly just want good test scores. THEN they want the rest of the application to support those scores. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me. Cart and the horse and all that. It looks like we may end up with some decent scores. *fingers crossed* And we have done the work. I have nothing to hide with this kid's high school transcript; he has completed a great high school curriculum. He is educated; he's ready for college. And he's actually a good student and a natural tinkerer. Truly an engineer. 95%/5% and all that. :001_smile:)

Edited November 1, 2010 by Janice in NJ

[Brenda in MA]

But I agree with Kareni. It is best to have a rec. from a teacher who has spent more than two months with the kid. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

I also agree with Kareni that a rec from a teacher that has known the student for more than a couple of months would be best, however, my son didn't have that either. He got a science teacher rec from his teacher at the local CC at the end of the first semester. He sent that one to his RD schools. For his EA schools, he used his scoutmaster and a teacher from an on-line, 1 year course for recommendations.

 

When we were doing college tours, we specifically asked about letters of recommendation. Everyone we spoke to said that a rec from our son's scoutmaster (he's an Eagle) who had known him for 6 years would be sufficient.

 

Coupled with good test scores and interesting ECs, his application really showcased who he is, and I think that's what you want.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[plansrme]

I'm not the OP, but thanks to all of you for these wonderful responses. Everyone who has responded had something unique to add, and as the mom of a future science/engineering major, I appreciated them all.

 

 

Terri