Did you see THIS ??????

[Ester Maria]

There is a time and place for everything - included small children.

 

If it's a family restaurant, whose target audience are families, of course that people of all age ranges are expected (but it's also expected that parents will do their best to put up with an overwhelmed or disturbed child, and take into account that, while people count with them, they also count with enough of your common sense to try not to disturb other guests).

There are restaurants whose target audience are not families, but rather couples, or strictly adults, and thus they provide their clients with more personal, different kind of atmosphere. Ideally, one would have enough common sense not to bring a child in such a place AT ALL. There are places DH and I would not go with our 12 and 13 year old daughters - let alone with them as toddlers.

 

Restaurants are not groceries, they're not something you HAVE to do so the society should have understanding that you can't always leave the child with somebody else. Restaurants are going out, essentially, a luxury, rather than a serious need. People pay for that luxury - to be cooked for and appropriately served - and want in return a good service and a good atmosphere. Of course that a crying baby in a restaurant whose target audience are obviously not babies (but which, out of politeness, will usually not ask you to leave solely because you come with a baby) is an objective obstacle, an impediment to an enjoyment in your meal as an adult couple.

 

I have kids, I know it's tough, and generally I became a LOT more tolerant of many things after I had kids, but I still firmly believe that you just don't take certain people to certain places. Would you take a baby that might cry into a university auditorium? Into a pub? To opera? To philharmony? Of course not; if you attend these places, you know all too well that some things are just. not. done, regardless of whether they're de iure allowed or no. If there's a chance a child won't behave, you don't take them. If you cough and are obviously sick, you don't go to philharmony to ruin the music for everyone else. And so forth.

 

My rule of the thumb has always been: don't put a child into a situation they can't handle. This excluded eating out with kids AT ALL until they were old enough to respect common decorum and general etiquette of eating, and not taking them until well past double-digit to more luxurious restaurants and places which obviously aren't aimed for children.

[Dana]

If you cough and are obviously sick, you don't go to philharmony to ruin the music for everyone else. And so forth.

 

Oh how I wish people would do that. :glare:

 

I become more of a misanthrope every year.

[LauraGB]

I really do wonder how much of this attitude is cultural. My ex boss and his wife (from France) had a baby at the same time I had our twins. They toted that baby everywhere they went; upscale restaurants, bars in the evening to watch music, flights back to France, etc. They thought I was...odd...because the very thought of taking my new babies out to dinner made me lose my appetite. I was a little envious, honestly, that they were able to go out to dinner, sip some wine and not need a baby sitter. The only thing I can think of is that it never occurred to them not to do this, that it would be a hindrance to anyone, whereas I was a bundle of nerves when I had to bring both of mine to the store for butter, because if they started crying and I couldn't console them for whatever reason, I knew I would abandon my groceries and get out of the store.

[MorganClassicalPrep]

I really do wonder how much of this attitude is cultural. My ex boss and his wife (from France) had a baby at the same time I had our twins. They toted that baby everywhere they went; upscale restaurants, bars in the evening to watch music, flights back to France, etc. They thought I was...odd...because the very thought of taking my new babies out to dinner made me lose my appetite. I was a little envious, honestly, that they were able to go out to dinner, sip some wine and not need a baby sitter. The only thing I can think of is that it never occurred to them not to do this, that it would be a hindrance to anyone, whereas I was a bundle of nerves when I had to bring both of mine to the store for butter, because if they started crying and I couldn't console them for whatever reason, I knew I would abandon my groceries and get out of the store.

 

If it is a cultural thing, I must be in the wrong culture!! :D I took (and still take!) DD everywhere with me. Stores, restaurants, movies(child appropriate of course), Church, school events, meeting with professors...

Then again, I am a single mom. If I don't take her, I'm not going. She has also always been a pretty well behaved child. In 4.5 years I have dealt with (public!) temper tantrums and such only a handful of times.

 

(And... I only had one! lol. I'm not sure I'd have been as brave with two. :tongue_smilie:)

[Melinda in VT]

I really do wonder how much of this attitude is cultural. My ex boss and his wife (from France) had a baby at the same time I had our twins. They toted that baby everywhere they went; upscale restaurants, bars in the evening to watch music, flights back to France, etc. They thought I was...odd...because the very thought of taking my new babies out to dinner made me lose my appetite. I was a little envious, honestly, that they were able to go out to dinner, sip some wine and not need a baby sitter. The only thing I can think of is that it never occurred to them not to do this, that it would be a hindrance to anyone, whereas I was a bundle of nerves when I had to bring both of mine to the store for butter, because if they started crying and I couldn't console them for whatever reason, I knew I would abandon my groceries and get out of the store.

 

It's just different with single babies than it is with twins. My oldest was an only for 4 years, and we took him lots of places, including restaurants that weren't actively marketing to families. (Although we did *not* take him to the philharmonic!)

 

With a single baby and two adults, you can take turns walking around the block with a restless child or looking at the fish tank while the other adult eats or settles the bill. With twins? Nightmare scenarios are possible and even probable.

 

(I still remember being chewed out by a prim and proper Rhode Islander for hurrying to finish my shopping with crying twins. I had to go. That was the only time I could do it. I had no one available to watch the kids for me. And I couldn't hold the twins and push the cart at the same time. Ugh.)

[Melinda in VT]

In my opinion, it's the adults who are lacking. They don't know how to deal with their own kids -- they just get frustrated and yell -- and other adults find kids annoying, instead of understanding some things are just NORMAL for children. Other adults are less inclined to step in and help.

 

In other societies, I have observed many adults (including 20 year old young men) who try to play with someone else's unhappy babies and there is a much more communal, rather than combative, environment, where children are seen as a NORMAL part of life, and yes, some people (including kids) cry and are not perfect 24 hours a day.

 

I've seen this too, but those societies seem to also come with the expectation that other adults are also allowed to correct your child, which most parents in our culture seem to object to.

[Ester Maria]

The only thing I can think of is that it never occurred to them not to do this, that it would be a hindrance to anyone

In theory, nobody minds anything unless the child actually causes some problems. The problem is within the realm of probability: the probability that a baby or a small child will disturb other guests is a lot greater than that other adult guests will disturb other guests (since small children often lack a sense of how loud they are, then they fidget and might walk around, cry, whatever). Hardly anyone will a priori deny you entrance with a small child, but should something happen, they know that they're sinking in the eyes of other guests who couldn't have their romantic dinner in calm atmosphere in that particular place.

 

It's all good when kids are nice and calm, "seen but not heard", but they're not nice and calm 24/7, and I personally wouldn't take upon myself that risk - especially with the age group, or a specific type of child, that I know there are big chances that s/he won't handle the situation properly.

[Cricket]

So many of you had great things to say concerning how parents should react, ect., but only a few people touched on what really bothered me about this article. And this article really bothered me. Not because I don't sympathize with people who genuinely have to deal with undisciplined children and the parents who don't care, but because it appeared that the article is lumping all children and parents with children into the same category. Our society is supposedly all about "tolerance" and anti-discrimination and not stereotyping, and yet, that is what is happening to children. They are, in my opinion, one of the "minorities" that are still discriminated against in our society. I mean, what if this restaurant banned blacks or asians or muslims? That would not go over at all!

This "children are not acceptable in public places attitude" is one reason why I personally have such a problem with birth control--not because I feel that everyone who uses it has this attitude, but because I've seen too many instances of people advocating its use because "children are inconvenient." We are discriminating, as a society, against our most precious commodity. This attitude as a whole is wrong. Now restaurants, in my opinion, could deal with the issue so much better by providing nursing rooms and family sections where these children's needs can be catered to without distracting everyone else. As far as all out running around the restaurant wildly and complete out of control behavior, managers have the right to ban those particular families and kick them out just like they would any customer who behaved in a very brash, rude, and disturbing manner. Singling out children in general is not the answer.

 

For the most part I agree with you. I've had rude comments and glares for being out with my four children. One time was at Burger King, for goodness sake. An older gentlemen rudely asked if the place had suddenly become a day care center and had a disgusted look on his face. We live in a place where we are surrounded by retirement communities. Many of those people do not want children anywhere in their vicinity even when they are in our neighborhood.

[silliness7]

Am I the only one with a kid who would screeeeeeeeeeeeeam no matter what? (At 17 months she went into Early Intervention for sensory issues, so that contributed.) I mean, I wouldn't take her to a wedding obviously, but I still had to do things like grocery shop, no matter how much she screamed about everything. Even being held (while trying to get groceries plus caring for her bigger sister) only worked for maybe half the store.

 

Yes, Yes!! I had one like that. She screamed whenever she was awake. Thankfully it only lasted month or two. I rarely took her anywhere and certainly not a restaurant, but I do remember taking her to the grocery store and getting glared out. What was I supposed to do? The rest of the family has to eat too. :tongue_smilie: I remember having to run into the library to pick up a hold or get help with my account from the service desk. I HAD to go. I HAD to bring her. There was no other option at the time. It's very embarrassing.

 

I usually cut moms some slack who are running errands, absolutely frazzled with a screaming baby. I tend to give people more credit and assume they already have tried the bottle or the boob etc. and NOTHING IS WORKING!! Because I've been there and I know what it's like.

[Laura Corin]

We always left restaurants if the boys screamed. I don't see a problem with asking someone to take their child for a walk outside until they calm down. You can't do that on a plane and sometimes the groceries just have to be bought. I have abandoned a full cart, however, when it was clear that there was no solution to my child's distress.

 

Laura

[holdoll]

Seems like cheap publicity to me. I hardly think it's necessary to have a policy against screaming kids. Regardless of a restaurants policy, most parents don't tolerate screaming kids anyway. 99% of the time, they do something to quiet the child, even if that means leaving the restaurant.

 

You obviously don't live in Utah. I don't blame the children though. I blame the inept, selfish parents.

 

If people see you trying to calm your child, they are pretty understanding. We've all been there. However, when you have 5 - 7 children loud and out of control, running around the restaurant, throwing food and the mom and dad are just sitting there chatting, well that is just plain rude IMO. I've witnessed this on a regular basis over the last 2 years. :glare:

[Luanne]

Seems like cheap publicity to me. I hardly think it's necessary to have a policy against screaming kids. Regardless of a restaurants policy, most parents don't tolerate screaming kids anyway. 99% of the time, they do something to quiet the child, even if that means leaving the restaurant.

 

 

Things must be totally different in Alabama than they are here in Colorado. You can't go anywhere hardly without having someone there with children running around screaming and the parent thinking that is totally normal behavior. It doesn't matter whether the kid is 1 or 10 either. We get a lot of the "screaming just to be screaming" stuff here. It is very hard on my ears (and I am sure others).

[Luanne]

... on the website about how we were all screaming children at one time to be almost funny. At no point was I a screaming child ... at least not past toddlerhood. My parents didn't tolerate it (and shouldn't have). When I was an infant or toddler my mother took me out of the situation that I was crying in rather than make others have to listen to my wailing. I was the youngest of four children and people commented all the time (even back then) at how well we were behaved. I got the same kind of comments when my daughter was young. I don't think it is that difficult to actually parent a child. I do know there are situations where a child just can't settle down, but usually that is when you need to take them home. I, too, agree with the people who are more irritated with the parents for not meeting their child's needs than with the actual child.

[Murphy101]

this article really bothered me. Not because I don't sympathize with people who genuinely have to deal with undisciplined children and the parents who don't care, but because it appeared that the article is lumping all children and parents with children into the same category.

 

As far as all out running around the restaurant wildly and complete out of control behavior, managers have the right to ban those particular families and kick them out just like they would any customer who behaved in a very brash, rude, and disturbing manner. Singling out children in general is not the answer.

 

:iagree:

I really do wonder how much of this attitude is cultural.

 

The only thing I can think of is that it never occurred to them not to do this, that it would be a hindrance to anyone.

 

:iagree: that has always been us too.

 

I'll also say that I think part of the problem is that I doubt very many of these families know how to sit down and eat a meal at a table anywhere as they don't model it at meals at home. I would never tolorate that behavior at our dinner table at home, so it really isn't a big deal when we eat at nice restaurants. I hate eating at family restaurants. I can't stand the rude behaviors.

[Penelope]

Honestly, my biggest pet peeve is parents who leave small infants screaming in carseats in their shopping carts and ignoring them while they shop or check out or whatever.

 

Toddlers are another matter, sometimes you can't do much about them screaming but remove them, and if you have to buy the groceries first, fine. But an infant crying can 9 times out of 10 be shut up by PICKING THEM UP AND COMFORTING THEM. People don't, and it drives me nuts. Change their diaper, stick a boob or bottle in their mouth, but most of all PICK THEM UP and a least TRY and look like you're trying to comfort them!

 

:iagree: It is so sad to see the tiny babies lying there screaming while the adult is having a conversation or otherwise cluelessly ignoring them and going about their business.