Would this bother you? Online classes and test availability...

[Sunshine State Sue]

Last year, ds took European History with History at our House. The teacher would put the test out on the website after the review class for the parent to print and administer. That didn't bother me too much, though I would prefer that it not be available at all to my student before he is prepared to take it.

 

This year, ds is taking Physics with Derek Owens distance learning program. Everything (videos, lecture notes, exercise answers, homework, labs, and tests) are available on the website from day 1. What is he thinking? No brick and mortar school teacher would place the tests for the year on the shelf marked "tests" for all the students to see. It's too big of a temptation, imo.

 

Opinions? WWYD if anything?

[swimmermom3]

Sue, we've done a couple of classes online and none of them have had the final tests available. That would bother me a lot.

[DebbS]

I would suggest that the tests aren't put online at all, but rather emailed to the parent when it's time to administer them. Or I would have them accessible from a password protected web page so students couldn't get to them. It just makes sense to me to keep the tests unavailable to the student until it's time to take them.

[Jann in TX]

Well... My Algebra students have access to their tests and answers--they are included IN the student text. I do the test grading and I have the students submit their tests--AND their work to me for grading.

 

I've been teaching online for several years--and I've never had a student 'cheat'--or rather I was never suspicious of cheating. I also interact with my students enough that I have a pretty good idea on how well they will score on a test BEFORE they take it.

 

If my classes were larger though, I would probably make a test and e-mail it out the week the students are expected to take it... and the students would NOT have access to the answers (this is what I do in my Geometry classes).

[Barb_]

It wouldn't bother me, but that's kind of how we do things here as well. I start encouraging the kids to check their own answers from the time they are 9-10. I leave my test books and cd's right on the shelf. I also tell them I'm sticking their Christmas presents in my closet under a sheet and not to look unless they want to ruin their surprise. Then again, I can sense I may have to do things differently with my son than I did with his older sisters, LOL. Time will tell. My guess is the director of the class wants to think the best of their students and are assuming integrity until proven otherwise?

 

Barb

[Night Elf]

Our classes through Keystone have everything but the answers online from Day 1. These courses assume an open book policy which doesn't bother me even though it isn't the norm. My son still needs to have done the work or it would take him forever to look up each and every answer, and the short answer questions would likely be frustrating rather than just thoughtful. I don't see it as cheating if the course was specifically set up that way. I'm positive there are students who print the tests and work through them, but my child doesn't do it that way. But I don't know anything about the online class you mentioned. Sorry!

[asta]

The best you can do is try and raise your child with the moral standards of a "non-cheater", if that makes sense. Some people don't want to accept those lessons and believe (insist to themselves) that there "must" be a shortcut out there - somewhere - that will give them an "edge over the competition". Even when the only competition is themselves, KWIM?

 

I think if a kid is going to cheat in life, they are going to cheat in life, and there is nothing you can ultimately do about it. Sadly.

 

 

asta

[lakerks]

Yes, the teacher in me thinks the tests should not be so easily accessible.

 

On the other hand, the parent in me knows my son and wouldn't be overly concerned that he would cheat. I frequently allow him to take tests while I'm busy doing something else, even while he's home alone. Only his conscience is there to stop him from looking up an answer. I've always stressed with him that the point of a test is to show us which parts of the material he has mastered and which parts he might not really grasp as well as he should.

 

I guess every kid is different. In a school situation, where you might have every kind of kid, I think it would be more important to safe-guard the test-taking process. I'll even be more careful this year myself when the grades begin to really "count" - not because I'm worried ds will cheat, but because I want to be able to honestly vouch for him and what he's accomplished, not giving anyone the chance to suspect anything "fishy," kwim? Sort of that being-above-reproach idea.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Above reproach, exactly.

 

This teacher doesn't know my son from Adam. I'm sure that there's all sorts of stuff that goes on in ds's head that I have no idea about. In my mind, honest adolescent is an oxymoron. I know I was dishonest as an adolescent.

 

I can just imagine what the NCAA and college admissions office would think if they knew that the tests were available to the students on day 1. Would they consider this course "academically sound"?

 

Sigh. I think I need to have a chat with the teacher. :glare:

[Halftime Hope]

the science teacher (Apologia) told me that she will no longer be basing the course grades on the in-book chapter tests and homework like she used to.

 

She has so many students who turn in homework and tests without showing any work, and occasionally, completing work in which it is obvious that they copied directly from the solutions manual! And this in spite of the fact that the parents correct the work and then the student turns it in with a score that the parents have tallied, marked on each item! In effect, it is as though the parents are cheating as well, b/c her course instructions were very clear, and we, the parents, were required to sign a statement that our students had to show all their work. Nothing ambiguous about it at all.

 

Her solution? The usual work will get a fractional percentage of the grade, but the bulk of the grade will be made up of quarterly tests and semester exams which she will have the parents proctor. It's more work for her, but she feels she'll be serving the students much better.

 

BTW, I knew none of this until after the course when the teacher ran her idea past me. Apparently dd was one of the few students who *worked* the problem sets and tests, and you could tell it was all her own work. (And I'm an ancient biochem major who graded pretty harshly.)

[lakerks]

I've taught science co-op classes, too, but I resist giving grades - especially for courses that parents intend to list on transcripts. I can't vouch for a student's mastery of the material if he/she is taking the tests at home under conditions that are unknown to me.

 

It's really the same reason why I don't blame public high schools for not recognizing credits for coursework students have completed at home. Some families are very particular about standards, test security, etc. Others just aren't.

[regentrude]

It would bother me.

I am an instructor myself. I make available to my students old exams from previous semesters for practice; they can realistically expect their own exam to be similar, but not identical, to those practice tests.

Making a test available beforehand encourages students to study only the stuff that is exactly on the test (and you can never test every single thing)- so even if they are honest in the sense that they do not have somebody else work it for them, it goes against my educational philosophy.

As for homework, I do post the assignments early for the whole semester, but expect my students to show every single step of their work. Giving the answer only earns no credit. Also, I expect them to go into a bit more detail than the solution manual, so I would spot somebody who just copied.

Agnes

[Sunshine State Sue]

I thought about this some more. I am only "teaching" 2 classes at home this year - LLfLOTR and Jacob's Geometry. I have the tests for each sitting in my bookcase in my home office. They are accessible to ds, although I am generally in my office or in the kitchen next door. If he wanted to get really sneaky, he could find them while I'm out of the house. I don't lock them up.

 

OTOH, the Physics tests are there on the website right next to the videos, homework, etc. I am not generally in the same room when he is accessing those things and they are very available. And, ds plays on the computer more hours than I like as well.

 

So, I gave Derek a call and asked about a few other things, then asked him his reason for having the tests available on the website. He said it's never been an issue, but immediately offered to make it so that when my son logs in, the tests are not displayed. (He is his own webmaster). I told him that I was concerned about academic integrity and wanting to be beyond reproach of the NCAA and such. He had no problem with it and will get it changed in the next few days.

 

I'm glad I called. I had to screw up all my nerve.

[Barb_]

 

It's really the same reason why I don't blame public high schools for not recognizing credits for coursework students have completed at home. Some families are very particular about standards, test security, etc. Others just aren't.

 

It's a good thing the admissions people at most colleges no longer think the way you do.

 

Barb

[lakerks]

It's a good thing the admissions people at most colleges no longer think the way you do.

 

Barb

 

 

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. I was under the impression that most colleges are looking for some evidence of a student's achievement beyond a simple statement from the parent, thus the need for community college classes, ACT scores, et cetera to help "validate" the transcript.

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[LoriM]

I'm another one (like Jann) who has no problem at all with my students knowing the content of a test before they take the test. I don't offer written assessment in such a way that the "right answer" is going to give them the grade. I teach in a classical school, so a good third of each of my tests requires the student demonstrate comprehension of the concepts (often by writing their own problems, and "teaching" me how to solve the problem they've written). Knowing before the test that they'll be expected to write a problem or two enables my students to prepare more completely, and I challenge them to write non-trivial problems, and even give more credit for better written work.

 

Even "simple" skill tests in my classes are clearly given to my students in advance...we drill fraction math, or percent/decimal conversions, and then they are given duplicate "blank" tests to fill in quickly. That's not cheating...that's mastery of memory work. Heck, even if it's only pattern recognition, well, that's an important math skill! :)

 

Unless your grades are based 100% on test scores, I'd think that it's no big deal for a student to know the test questions before testing.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I wouldn't care much about the online class, but that NCAA regulation worries me. Um...lots of high school students complete work independently, with little teacher interaction. I'm kinda bugged out by that. I guess that explains why a friend, whose daughter got an athletic scholarship to Univ. of FL had to go through some serious testing b4 beginning school. I don't think I'm likin' that NCAA thing one bit.

[Barb_]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding something. I was under the impression that most colleges are looking for some evidence of a student's achievement beyond a simple statement from the parent, thus the need for community college classes, ACT scores, et cetera to help "validate" the transcript.

 

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

 

No, most colleges (with the possible exception of certain ones in Georgia) require from homeschoolers exactly the same things they require from anyone else. The need for SAT's, ACT's and other requirements are generally applied evenly across the spectrum of schooling options. There aren't any colleges that I'm aware of requiring community college, APs, or other outside classes but homeschoolers often include them to make their students more attractive. Validation of the transcript looms larger in the minds of homeschoolers than it does in admissions departments.

 

Barb

[Elizabeth in WA]

No, most colleges (with the possible exception of certain ones in Georgia) require from homeschoolers exactly the same things they require from anyone else. The need for SAT's, ACT's and other requirements are generally applied evenly across the spectrum of schooling options. There aren't any colleges that I'm aware of requiring community college, APs, or other outside classes but homeschoolers often include them to make their students more attractive. Validation of the transcript looms larger in the minds of homeschoolers than it does in admissions departments.

 

Barb

 

Well, University of Washington does require some extra testing from homeschoolers:

 

College Academic Distribution Requirements (CADR)

 

All freshman and transfer applicants are required to meet minimum academic distribution requirements as set by the Washington State Higher Education Coordinating (HEC) Board and the faculty of the University of Washington. These requirements are explained in detail elsewhere on the Web.

Freshman Applicants: admit.washington.edu/Requirements/Freshman/CADR

Transfer Applicants: admit.washington.edu/Requirements/Transfer/Requirements/CADR

Test Score Requirements

CADR subjects completed at a high school or regionally accredited college do not require test score validation.

CADR subjects completed through homeschooled coursework require validating test scores.

The UW does not have an established list of predetermined _minimum_ scores but reviews each homeschooled applicant in light of their unique educational history. All applicants are assessed holistically in the context of the UW’s comprehensive review process.

CADR Examination Options.

Scores from ACT with Writing or SAT Reasoning Test are required of all freshman applicants and may also serve as a validation option for some CADR subjects.

English SAT Reasoning Test or ACT with Writing

Mathematics SAT Reasoning Test or ACT with Writing

Lab Science:

Validation is required for at least one of the following: Biology, Chemistry, or Physics. ACT with Writing or SAT Subject Test or Advanced Placement (AP)

World Languages UW proficiency examination results for subject area (Comparable proficiency exam from another regionally accredited college or university may be an option; contact UW Admissions Office in advance.) SAT Subject Test or Advanced Placement (AP)

Social Science No additional test required.

Fine Visual & Performing Arts No additional test required.

[LoriM]

Well, University of Washington does require some extra testing from homeschoolers:

 

 

 

I think that's why many WA hsers use Running Start. :)