S/O breadth vs. depth: what about best vs. pretty good

[Miss Marple]

I'm having trouble this year getting my thoughts together with regards to history and literature. I've planned out English, science, and math as well as an elective (health).

 

English, science, and math are all going to be more rigorous this year for my guys than previous years. The trouble is that I've always taught a literature/world views course in our co-op but I won't be involved in co-op this year and I still want to cover my course with these boys but simply cannot see how they will get it all done.

 

So...this nagging little habit of trying to do it all the very best way is getting in the way of actually getting any of it done. Do I cut back on the reading? Do I use an anthology instead of whole books (Iliad, Aeneid), do I use Quine's WVWW syllabus which delves deeply into the books and just do fewer works or go with something that will just get us through? It's hard for me to give up this particular subject, but both of these boys are science/math oriented so would I be doing them harm in the long run?

 

Do you do all subjects rigorously? Do you pick a few things to concentrate on during the year and just "get by" with some of the others? I know I can just "get by" but I feel like I'm being a wimp in not trying to do it all at the highest level we can. :001_huh:

[Tullia]

I'm a perfectionist married to an ultra perfectionist and learning that even though he usually masks it, mother to a perfectionist as well. I think our homeschool motto should have been, "Never allow the Perfect be the Enemy of the Good." I'm not advocating slacking, but there are times and circumstances when it's simply not possible to do all you like. I've learned some of the following by the sad experience of having a series of distressing upheavals in our lives all the way through ds's high school years and continuing into his first two terms at CC.

 

When you can't do it all...

Focus your best efforts on basic skills (math, language arts) but condense the workload by looking for opportunities to apply them in history science and literature.

 

Keep history and literature relatively informal and look at it as a time to connect and share ideas. Make a read, write, discuss mantra the focus of literature and history and maybe throw in some philosophy and context of science for good measure since they're inclined to math and science already. I'd also suggest you opt for quality and depth over quantity using a few carefully selected books and then rely on a good anthology to fill in the wider context. I've found that my son is well able (when he makes the effort) to apply what he's learned from one in-depth reading and analysis to subsequent reading.

 

On the question of being math/science oriented vs. the humanities...they may have to take a fair number of humanity electives so some in-depth analysis of literature and history would probably be helpful. We enjoyed the Teaching Company cd's and dvd's especially when we used them informally as discussion starters.

 

HTH,

Martha

 

Another thought: I usually encourage ds to not assume that he'll get any second chances, but that's just what happened for him regarding some of the books we didn't get to in high school. His first college English course was analytical and argumentative writing based on American Literature which in our home school consisted mostly of a cursory run-through of an anthology and free reading of a relatively small list of books--and some but not much discussion. He's taking an "Ancient Legacies" course this summer and getting a chance to read some books I hated to skip, but we didn't have the time. And, he's secure enough in his world-view to enjoy discussions with people who have very different beliefs. What we did accomplish seems to have prepared him well. He's working hard but not struggling in his humanities elective courses.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Martha in NM
add info.

[rwjx2khsmj]

For me, I plan my ideal and then live it with an attitude of realism. As we live the plan, I ask myself where I'm willing to let things go in order to stay sane. Usually, it's some of the reading that slides. Last year our time line was very bare bones. As my daughter said, "Mom, you bought a whole book that's a time line. Can't we just LOOK at that?!" Why, yes, yes we can.

[FrogMom5]

Every year I plan and try to cover all of our subjects at the highest level. Every year we end up letting at least one thing slide.

 

In the end, we made the subjects my ds wants or needs for his major in college (physics) the most rigorous and let the others be "good enough." So, math and science take top priority, followed by English. History, Latin and so forth are done with a less rigor. Of course, Bible study always comes first.

 

We want the best for our children but none of us can do it all. I wish we could. :grouphug:

 

Denise

[JennW in SoCal]

 

Keep history and literature relatively informal and look at it as a time to connect and share ideas. Make a read, write, discuss mantra the focus of literature and history and maybe throw in some philosophy and context of science for good measure since they're inclined to math and science already. I'd also suggest you opt for quality and depth over quantity using a few carefully selected books and then rely on a good anthology to fill in the wider context. I've found that my son is well able (when he makes the effort) to apply what he's learned from one in-depth reading and analysis to subsequent reading.

 

:iagree:

 

Pick a few works you love and go deep, then throw in some lighter reading to discuss but not necessarily to analyze and write about. I think your guys will get more out of it in the long run if you approach this way rather than treating it as you did rigorous co-op course. I like how Martha phrased it -- it can be a time of connecting, something you all will remember fondly.

[mcconnellboys]

No, you will not hurt them. Yes, you can use any of the ideas you suggest. "Just do it" was the advertising slogan of the last decade for a reason, LOL.....

[imeverywoman]

and we discussed this very topic. She said, "Friend, you cannot do AP everything. You cannot even do AP type everything. Pick his/her area of strength and do it with all your might. Then, do the other things well. Figure out what he/she will focus on and do that to the highest level you can."

 

Pretty good advice, I thought. :)

 

Also, recently, I learned, either here, or from the same friend, that the best _________ is the one that will get done. Be it science, logic, grammar, et al.

 

Also pretty good, I thought. :)

 

HTH...

[Miss Marple]

Thank you ALL! The advice here and that given on the other threads about hs credits/ps course credits has really helped me put this in perspective. I have felt guilty thinking that we might not be reading all of Spielvogel HO or 8 complete Great Books, etc. You're my Sanity Restorers!

[Rhondabee]

and we discussed this very topic. She said, "Friend, you cannot do AP everything. You cannot even do AP type everything. Pick his/her area of strength and do it with all your might. Then, do the other things well. Figure out what he/she will focus on and do that to the highest level you can."

 

Pretty good advice, I thought. :)

 

Also, recently, I learned, either here, or from the same friend, that the best _________ is the one that will get done. Be it science, logic, grammar, et al.

 

Also pretty good, I thought. :)

 

HTH...

 

Oh, I think I might cry. The "Friend" at the beginning is just the right touch.

[Adrienne_in_TX]

My just-graduated dd and I were having a similar discussion recently as I plan her younger sister's literature selections for next year. My younger dd is not a strong reader and I was struggling with how to "keep up with the Joneses" in terms of doing 8-10 works a year complete with in-depth analysis and essays. My oldest dd informed me that in her AP English classes both Junior and Senior year they only did 4-5 full works of literature and one of those was read in the summer before school started.

 

Incidentally, some of the works that I see many people including early on in high school were Senior level for her, so there is no one right way. For her Honors Lit class in college next year, they are tackling some works that many hs kids are being given as freshman!?! I don't think that indicates that the university is working below level but rather that sometimes we may be pushing a little too much with our young highschoolers

 

Sometimes I think we are killing ourselves trying to excel at everything. Four or five full works a year plus exposure to several others through audiobooks, movies, and synopses is more than adequate. There are always second chances, because education is not over when they graduate from college. They have their whole lives to read, learn, assimilate, form and reform opinions, and refine or completely redesign their worldviews.

 

I know I often need to step back and remind myself of what the goal is. If my goal is to finish a certain number of pages or read a certain number of novels--that is simple. If my goal is to gain an understanding of how to read and appreciate good literature, I can teach those skills with 2 or 3 good books and then she can carry those skills wherever she will.

 

Okay-I feel better now! Off to find the curriculum that will get it done to the best of our ability despite what everybody else thinks is perfect!!!:hurray:

[PeterPan]

Obviously take this with a grain of salt, as I haven't done it, but it seems to me that you already know the material well enough to pare it down to what will fit them. You only have a pragmatic question of how to get it done. I had two suggestions that I didn't know if you had considered. One, you could teach a class in your home, not as part of that co-op. There may be others, even just a few, in a similar situation who would enjoy such a class. I've done classes in my house over the years, and we enjoy it greatly. It doesn't intrude on your schedule as much, as they come to you, and it still gives you that time with people and interaction. Option two, you could do it with just the two of them but flex it as a non-scheduled interaction. For instance, you could keep a running journal on the table and write thoughts to each other about the work. Everyone would have the reading schedule pre-established and they would be graded on meeting it and their amount of participation. Or you could set up a blog or web-based board for discussion. Apparently many, many college classes (undergrad and especially grad) are going to this format with a required amount of discussion board participation. The advantage is they can do it on their schedule (at night, whenever it fits), and you still get the written, quantified participation you need. And they learn skills with discussion, meeting deadlines, etc. It's a win-win.

 

I just wouldn't make the hump the content. You've already done this so many years, surely you can pick out a custom list that will fit them nicely. You might be able to pick a spine that goes through science and technology history rather than doing Spielvogel, just to make it a bit more interesting. :)

[Guest]

My just-graduated dd and I were having a similar discussion recently as I plan her younger sister's literature selections for next year. My younger dd is not a strong reader and I was struggling with how to "keep up with the Joneses" in terms of doing 8-10 works a year complete with in-depth analysis and essays. My oldest dd informed me that in her AP English classes both Junior and Senior year they only did 4-5 full works of literature and one of those was read in the summer before school started.

 

Incidentally, some of the works that I see many people including early on in high school were Senior level for her, so there is no one right way. For her Honors Lit class in college next year, they are tackling some works that many hs kids are being given as freshman!?! I don't think that indicates that the university is working below level but rather that sometimes we may be pushing a little too much with our young highschoolers

 

Sometimes I think we are killing ourselves trying to excel at everything. Four or five full works a year plus exposure to several others through audiobooks, movies, and synopses is more than adequate. There are always second chances, because education is not over when they graduate from college. They have their whole lives to read, learn, assimilate, form and reform opinions, and refine or completely redesign their worldviews.

 

I know I often need to step back and remind myself of what the goal is. If my goal is to finish a certain number of pages or read a certain number of novels--that is simple. If my goal is to gain an understanding of how to read and appreciate good literature, I can teach those skills with 2 or 3 good books and then she can carry those skills wherever she will.

 

Okay-I feel better now! Off to find the curriculum that will get it done to the best of our ability despite what everybody else thinks is perfect!!!:hurray:

 

Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I needed this, and needed it exactly at this time.

[Miss Marple]

Obviously take this with a grain of salt, as I haven't done it, but it seems to me that you already know the material well enough to pare it down to what will fit them. You only have a pragmatic question of how to get it done. I had two suggestions that I didn't know if you had considered. One, you could teach a class in your home, not as part of that co-op. There may be others, even just a few, in a similar situation who would enjoy such a class. I've done classes in my house over the years, and we enjoy it greatly. It doesn't intrude on your schedule as much, as they come to you, and it still gives you that time with people and interaction. Option two, you could do it with just the two of them but flex it as a non-scheduled interaction. For instance, you could keep a running journal on the table and write thoughts to each other about the work. Everyone would have the reading schedule pre-established and they would be graded on meeting it and their amount of participation. Or you could set up a blog or web-based board for discussion. Apparently many, many college classes (undergrad and especially grad) are going to this format with a required amount of discussion board participation. The advantage is they can do it on their schedule (at night, whenever it fits), and you still get the written, quantified participation you need. And they learn skills with discussion, meeting deadlines, etc. It's a win-win.

 

I just wouldn't make the hump the content. You've already done this so many years, surely you can pick out a custom list that will fit them nicely. You might be able to pick a spine that goes through science and technology history rather than doing Spielvogel, just to make it a bit more interesting. :)

 

Interesting ideas! I have thought about offering it out of my home, but I'm just so burned out from 8 years of teaching in co-op that I was hoping for a break. OTOH, literature discussion just works sooo much better in a group. I just don't want to be obliged to grade lots of essays for other students, etc. If I could just do discussion and maybe make the assignments and have the parents grade...well, that might work. As far as the discussion board, I think that is also a viable option - even if I taught the class to others as well. My oldest is taking an online history class this summer while he is interning in Texas. Discussion board posting is an assignment and seems to work well.

 

You're right about me feeling comfortable with the material. It's rather easy now, and I have a list of works for this year, but if we do them all completely, along with the essay assignments from co-op, I think they will be doing school 12 hours a day! So I need to scale back on the works as well as the assignments and add in a history reader. Lori D.'s schedule for ancient history with Spielvogel seemed very do-able.

 

Switching gears, slowing down, refocusing, and being creative are difficult for me right now, but I think that's what I need to concentrate on. Thanks for the ideas!

[swimmermom3]

I'm having trouble this year getting my thoughts together with regards to history and literature. I've planned out English, science, and math as well as an elective (health).

 

English, science, and math are all going to be more rigorous this year for my guys than previous years. The trouble is that I've always taught a literature/world views course in our co-op but I won't be involved in co-op this year and I still want to cover my course with these boys but simply cannot see how they will get it all done.

 

So...this nagging little habit of trying to do it all the very best way is getting in the way of actually getting any of it done. Do I cut back on the reading? Do I use an anthology instead of whole books (Iliad, Aeneid), do I use Quine's WVWW syllabus which delves deeply into the books and just do fewer works or go with something that will just get us through? It's hard for me to give up this particular subject, but both of these boys are science/math oriented so would I be doing them harm in the long run?

 

Do you do all subjects rigorously? Do you pick a few things to concentrate on during the year and just "get by" with some of the others? I know I can just "get by" but I feel like I'm being a wimp in not trying to do it all at the highest level we can. :001_huh:

 

Oh! I completely get this!:D Way back when my kids were still in private school, there were three wonderful moms who always volunteered to be room mothers. They would solicit businesses and any other thing to where they would nearly triple the classroom budget for parties. These were amazing parties and the rest of us would cringe because there was no way we were willing and or able to compete. After a couple of years, they stopped planning the elaborate parties. One of the moms told me later that they realized the kids were throwing away half the food and goodies they received. It was just too much. I think as a culture we have developed an attitude that if a little of something is good, then an over-the-top amount is better. Not complying to this cultural norm leaves us feeling perpetually guilty. I don't think there is anything wimpy about using discernment in educating our children. However, practicing discernment is unsettling if you have perfectionist tendencies.:tongue_smilie:

 

Martha and Adrienne gave you some excellent advice which I am going to print our for my TWTM notebook. In my notebook is an old post of Nan's that I'll have to see if she can remember where it comes from because she talks both about "doing enough" and about "doing one subject rigorously enough that they learn to think." Is literary analysis where you do the majority of your thinking with your kids? If so, perhaps it will be difficult for you to trim it down. Can history become more bare bones?

[Miss Marple]

Sometimes I think we are killing ourselves trying to excel at everything. Four or five full works a year plus exposure to several others through audiobooks, movies, and synopses is more than adequate. There are always second chances, because education is not over when they graduate from college. They have their whole lives to read, learn, assimilate, form and reform opinions, and refine or completely redesign their worldviews.

 

This is what I need to remember! I know that I've read far more as an adult than I ever did as a student. And because it was something I wanted to do, I think I have learned more through it - relating it to current events, etc.

[PeterPan]

This is what I need to remember! I know that I've read far more as an adult than I ever did as a student. And because it was something I wanted to do, I think I have learned more through it - relating it to current events, etc.

 

I think there's more to it though than simply wanting to read the material. There's the frame of reference and perspective that time and experience give. I can read a thread on the boards that I read 6 months earlier, and I see totally different things in it. The thread might not even have been necessary then, and suddenly it fits my need perfectly.

 

I've always thought that my forgetting allowed me the joy of relearning. I watch a movie now that I haven't watched in ages and it's fresh and enjoyable to me again. I read a book again that I read in childhood and it's enjoyable to me. That doesn't mean the book wasn't profitable to me as a child. Just means I'm seeing it afresh.

 

Ahh, I see now you're relating this to quantity, interest, and retention. Even then it goes back to perspective. A motivated student reading the same lit just wouldn't have the same frame of reference to take from a work as an adult. Someone who has been through grief sees things in a passage another person might miss. Need, perspective, these all apply. But in truth, our kids are reading WAY more and getting exposed to more than we did as kids. (Definitely more than I did!)

Edited July 18, 2010 by OhElizabeth

[Miss Marple]

Even then it goes back to perspective. A motivated student reading the same lit just wouldn't have the same frame of reference to take from a work as an adult. Someone who has been through grief sees things in a passage another person might miss. Need, perspective, these all apply. But in truth, our kids are reading WAY more and getting exposed to more than we did as kids. (Definitely more than I did!)

 

I agree! I still love to re-read books that I loved as a youth. My English Lit (1 semester) class in high school allowed me a very small exposure to Shakespeare, but I remember I enjoyed it enough to want to re-read as an adult. And maybe that's some of the value of literature study - developing an appreciation for an author enough to want to revisit his/her works at a later time.

[JennW in SoCal]

I also believe that our sharing literature with our kids will add to their desire to continue reading throughout their adulthood because they will have a warm emotional attachment to literature. Even my non-reader still wants to listen to an audio book when he is sick in bed because, I assume, being read to is something very comforting.

 

If you pare things down to a doable load and study a few works that you yourself enjoy, you can teach them the skills they need and pass on your own love of literature. I'm not just telling this to Cynthia -- I'm having to tell myself this because my 15yo will have a crazy schedule this fall of classes at two locations and an internship at a third. Literature has to be pared down for sanity's sake, but it is going to be something we do with milk and cookies at home while sitting on the couch.

[PeterPan]

Cynthia, it's funny but when I studied Shakespeare in school it was sort of the opposite reaction. I understood it, had seen lots of plays, and just didn't have that *enjoyment* factor to ever draw me to it as an adult. So maybe Jennifer is onto something, that the enjoyment we create in the lit is almost as important as the lit itself. VP does this with their Omnibus classes (at their school), sitting around on a couch, discussing, and I assume drinking hot chocolate or coffee or something. So I guess it's possible to do that even with the heavy stuff.

[Miss Marple]

VP does this with their Omnibus classes (at their school), sitting around on a couch, discussing, and I assume drinking hot chocolate or coffee or something. So I guess it's possible to do that even with the heavy stuff.

 

This is what we did in my co-op class, also. I think that's why I want to re-create it with the boys at home - we often had movie night after we finished a work, or a Greek meal complete with costumes - we just had a lot of fun with it. I'll just have to see how our sanity holds out for the first month or two. One will be taking the PSAT as a 10th grader in the fall and I'm hoping to get in a bit of prep for that as well. He took the ACT this spring and did better than I had expected (he's one who just isn't a "standardized test" whiz) so I want to get him more experience so he'll feel more comfortable with testing. The younger boy is itching to take the ACT again - he did fantastic and he has a very competitive personality. So many things happening this year...it never slows down.

[Nan in Mass]

Or paddling our feet off the dock and feeding crumbs to the fish. Or sitting with the dog on our feet in front of the fire. I am hoping my children remember doing great books when they remember homeschooling, and not the most of the rest. If we do fewer books, so be it. If we don't discuss them like we did in my (admittedly very few) literature classes, so be it. If we don't write as much about them as the local high school, well, so be it. Hopefully, for the rest of their lives, they will remember the things we did do. And they won't be unhappy about reading classics, so they will continue to read them. The funny part is that seem to have learned quite a lot, even doing it as lightly as we did, reading everything aloud, picking books I think they will like and skipping anything they won't, not doing much background work, not being very good at directing discussions or even discussing the works from any point of view except our own.

 

My problem is that I feel like I am doing a suitably bad job for history and literature (for a future engineer) but not an equally suitably good job at math and science, especially since foreign languages and travelling take up a lion's share of the school day. I'm wondering if it will turn out to be a good thing, considering that my son won't get much social studies, history, and literature once he gets to engineering school, or a bad thing because he won't be able to get into an interesting engineering school or because he won't be properly prepared when he gets there. I am happy doing social studies non-traditionally, foreign languages practically, and literature and history badly. It is the math and the science that worry me.

 

-nan

[PeterPan]

Oh Nan, you're probably never going to resolve those worries. And truthfully, you don't have to be a star math student to be a mighty fine, employable person and engineer when you get out. You have to be able to do just enough. It's even possible to go in with a deficient background and survive, so long as you have commitment, time, and are willing to study or get help.

 

I'm just saying the things he's WEAK at are not what are going to define him. They just have to be surviveable. So just do the best you can and it will be fine.

[Nan in Mass]

Hmm... Since the things it looks like he is going to be weak in aren't really things he is naturally weak in at all (quite the opposite), maybe my approach makes more sense than it feels like it does? My natural inclination is to eat dessert first in case I die before the main meal is over, so the to-everything-there-is-a-season approach feels dangerous to me. Maybe that is what is bothering me so much? Elizabeth, what you said was really, really helpful. Thank you.

[rwjx2khsmj]

Oh Nan, you're probably never going to resolve those worries. And truthfully, you don't have to be a star math student to be a mighty fine, employable person and engineer when you get out. You have to be able to do just enough. It's even possible to go in with a deficient background and survive, so long as you have commitment, time, and are willing to study or get help.

 

I'm just saying the things he's WEAK at are not what are going to define him. They just have to be surviveable. So just do the best you can and it will be fine.

 

This is so true. My dh and I were talking about this last night. Neither of us had stellar educations. He cared less about his than I did about mine. He spent 4 years in the military and then decided to go to engineering school. Had to enter the U on a general program because he didn't have what the engineering school required. Worked hard to get into the engineering school (because it mattered to HIM) and continued to excel on into his career and to present day. He just finished taking a Calculus course, for fun.

 

We can't give our dc all the learning they will require for life. Only they can do that for themselves. We can teach them that there is so much out there and offer up a variety daily. Some they need, some they want. Like a balanced meal + dessert. They'll decide what to take. Some that they don't like now (calculus or whatever) might be more appealling later. The great thing about knowledge is that it has a shelf life of forever and won't spoil by waiting around.