The breadth vs. depth question

[rwjx2khsmj]

Okay, everybody, here's a huge question for you.

 

Given the passion and interest and emotional engagement generated by this thread: does anybody think there is a market for a different kind of homeschooling book -- one written with chapters by various homeschooling parents not about their schedules or what materials they use or specific how-tos, necessarily, but about:

 

--people who are specialists in various fields talking about what skills they think are vital if you have a child really interested in this area; talking about what they think a kid should know/be able to do in that field by the end of high school; what kinds of obstacles are in the way; how to explore and nurture that child's interest outside the standard curriculum

 

--people who have kids with a strong natural bent toward either a field of knowledge or a type of learning/ neurological approach to learning. They could talk about working with a child whose mind is different from the norm and from their own, what ways the child has found to educate himself or herself, what problems they run into and how they work around them.

 

--how difficult it is to work against the conventional educational pattern on so many levels, and what parents have found whose kids have made it through

 

Do you think anyone besides us would be interested in reading something like that? Would anybody be interested in writing about it in this way? It seems to me as though there's so much thought and experience and wisdom going into this thread, it deserves a wider audience. And also, I get the feeling there are a lot of people out there desperate for a book that speaks more to the way their kids do not fit the traditional educational structure, even a supposedly alternative structure like TWTM.

 

I'd love an anecdotal book that focused on a variety of methods. I am through with books that give me a "this is the way our family did it" for 200+ pages. That's great if you agree with the basic educational philosophy AND your children fit their mold. It's useless (or practically useless) otherwise.

 

A "Build it Big" for homeschoolers. I like that idea.

[Capt_Uhura]

Here's another thought: Cloud children and opportunities. Right now we live where cultural opportunities are minimal (major understatement), but we're looking to move nearer to a major metropolitan area where options will be more readily available. We've never used a co-op type class and probably never will unless it aligns with our needs.

That is my issue as well. Very few cultural opportunities near by.

 

 

However, if my son develops an interest and wants to study X...let's say for arguments sake it's an interest in military aircraft used during WWII. Do you go to your network of friends and look for opportunities to enhance this learning? Do you scour your area for ways to bring that interest to life? How much legwork do you do? Obviously at 12 my son is not mature enough to search these out completely on his own. Do you excitedly research behind their backs and casually show them what you've found? I've done that out of fear of turning his new "passion" into a school thing, thereby negating all interest in said subject.

 

I guess my question is how big a part do you play in the discovery and support? It's exciting to me to read about things and experience it through a page, but I used to read the encyclopedia for fun. Do cloud children require more? Do they have to experience and learn differently? I'm not even talking about learning styles, but maybe the process to take something to its fullest.

 

I will find books, documentaries, look for airplane shows, air shows, etc. My DS is a huge WWII fan. Just this week we toured two naval ships from WWII. I was absolutely stunned by my son's level of knowledge. I asked him "How do you know all of this?" He has spent two days reading a dry as toast manual for learning how to fly some large airplane and is now successfully flying it on a computer flight simulator. Unfortunately, DS is extremely shy so finding someone who will spend the time to bring him out of his shell in his interest area would be difficult.

[elegantlion]

Okay, everybody, here's a huge question for you.

 

Given the passion and interest and emotional engagement generated by this thread: does anybody think there is a market for a different kind of homeschooling book -- one written with chapters by various homeschooling parents not about their schedules or what materials they use or specific how-tos, necessarily, but about:

 

 

:iagree: Yes, I think that would be an excellent idea.

[AuntPol]

Here's another thought: Cloud children and opportunities. Right now we live where cultural opportunities are minimal (major understatement), but we're looking to move nearer to a major metropolitan area where options will be more readily available. We've never used a co-op type class and probably never will unless it aligns with our needs.

 

However, if my son develops an interest and wants to study X...let's say for arguments sake it's an interest in military aircraft used during WWII. Do you go to your network of friends and look for opportunities to enhance this learning? Do you scour your area for ways to bring that interest to life? How much legwork do you do? Obviously at 12 my son is not mature enough to search these out completely on his own. Do you excitedly research behind their backs and casually show them what you've found? I've done that out of fear of turning his new "passion" into a school thing, thereby negating all interest in said subject.

 

I guess my question is how big a part do you play in the discovery and support? It's exciting to me to read about things and experience it through a page, but I used to read the encyclopedia for fun. Do cloud children require more? Do they have to experience and learn differently? I'm not even talking about learning styles, but maybe the process to take something to its fullest.

 

For my son, I have to do a lot of the legwork. I look up places we can go for family outings (aka field trips), find books that I can put in the book basket choices for reading, movies, etc. I try to tie in naturally. He's an Aspie though. He thinks he is going to hate everything until he does it and you have to "make" him do it. THen he loves it and you have to tell him to shut up (and yes you have to use shut up with him, be quiet doesn't suffice as quiet is relative lol). In the past year, he has moved into browsing sections of library and book stores in his interest area to pick out something new but related to his interest. It also helps that my Aspie DH has same interests so he is always sharing with my son.

 

My daughter is extremely independent. If I suggest a book, she will not read it. It took her forever to read Percy Jackson because I gave it to her as a Christmas gift in 2008 (I knew she would love it given her interest in Greek mythology). She didn't read it until this year (after her brother read it and was laughing about it) and read whole series (buying it with her allowance) and is now writing a female version. She pores over Bulfinches, does computer research, looks up books in library. I have to use a lot of reverse psychology with her (such as pass by doll house aisle, knowing she would love it, and glancing at it and walking past saying "I'm not going to even consider that -takes up too much time and space" -then boom she wants one but if I said "let's do this"-no way under the sun).

[Nan in Mass]

Well, judging by almost every single one of my real-life conversations with other parents about homeschooling, I think do. I think I like your list of contents better than your description of it, though. I still think you might find, as your children get older, that they need a lot of what is contained in TWTM, and that TWTM tells you how to teach it in a something other than regular school manner, that is, specifically as skills rather than sort of assuming that the child will pick them up on their own in the process of focusing on learning the traditional content. I know schools also teach skills, but I think they take second place after content. Content is much easier to measure than skills. Maybe I am doing typical public schools a disservice, though? Anyway, I think that you will find that the skills needed for different professions are remarkably similar. And it seems to me that perhaps what you are talking about, learning skills through a child's specific passions, is almost more similar to the school way of doing things than to TWTM way of doing things; you just are letting the child choose the content instead of using traditional content. But maybe I am looking at this wrong? I think often times, people with a strong, overriding passion, one's whose passion keeps on being strong throughout their whole childhood and young adulthood, manage to teach themselves the skills they need. They may not have a large, versatile skill set, but they have what they need and they have the most important element - a well trained mind. I don't think you need to worry about them as much. I think what we all fear is that that child will change their mind as they grow, in which case, a more versitale skill set would be better.

 

In a way, with my youngest, we are doing your book suggestion: our youngest is headed for engineering so we asked engineers what he will need to be able to do. We are trying to accomplish that and give him some of the things he won't get when he goes to engineering school and doesn't have time to study literature.

 

The more I think about this thread, the more I realize that I really, really want my children to have well trained minds (and bodies). I never properly appreciated the title of TWTM before. If I had to pick one educational goal for them other than being good and strong, it would be that.

 

-Nan

[elegantlion]

That would be my child -he will read D&D and Star Wars role playing books all day long.

 

Last year for school my ds spent a week watching behind the scenes of Star Wars and making story boards. He was ecstatic we would consider that school. the story boards are filed away right now, he's back to Lego building.

 

I will find books, documentaries, look for airplane shows, air shows, etc. My DS is a huge WWII fan. Just this week we toured two naval ships from WWII. I was absolutely stunned by my son's level of knowledge. I asked him "How do you know all of this?" He has spent two days reading a dry as toast manual for learning how to fly some large airplane and is now successfully flying it on a computer flight simulator. Unfortunately, DS is extremely shy so finding someone who will spend the time to bring him out of his shell in his interest area would be difficult.

 

My ds is shy too. I often think of my dad, who is quiet and very mild-mannered. Once he gets around people that share his passion, electronics and HAM radio, he's a chameleon. I'm hoping that will be true for my ds, even if I have to push him through the door initially. I will also have to get out of my comfort zone to get him to the door. Thankfully dh is extroverted. :lol:

[Nan in Mass]

Have you heard about Olin? (think I got the name right - project based engineering college)

[Nan in Mass]

I have found it to be a really tricky balance. I've tried not doing anything, but that leaves the child unaware of the possibilities. I think it is better to err on the side of not doing enough, rather than on the side of doing too much. Hungry children investigate more and stay enthusiastic longer.

-Nan

[elegantlion]

I have found it to be a really tricky balance. I've tried not doing anything, but that leaves the child unaware of the possibilities. I think it is better to err on the side of not doing enough, rather than on the side of doing too much. Hungry children investigate more and stay enthusiastic longer.

-Nan

 

Thank you. My son is almost 13, I'm starting to find the depth of the phrase "hungry to learn", as I see it applied to the emptying of my pantry.

[Corraleno]

Okay, everybody, here's a huge question for you.

 

Given the passion and interest and emotional engagement generated by this thread: does anybody think there is a market for a different kind of homeschooling book -- one written with chapters by various homeschooling parents not about their schedules or what materials they use or specific how-tos, necessarily, but about:

 

--people who are specialists in various fields talking about what skills they think are vital if you have a child really interested in this area; talking about what they think a kid should know/be able to do in that field by the end of high school; what kinds of obstacles are in the way; how to explore and nurture that child's interest outside the standard curriculum

--people who have kids with a strong natural bent toward either a field of knowledge or a type of learning/ neurological approach to learning. They could talk about working with a child whose mind is different from the norm and from their own, what ways the child has found to educate himself or herself, what problems they run into and how they work around them.

 

--how difficult it is to work against the conventional educational pattern on so many levels, and what parents have found whose kids have made it through

 

Do you think anyone besides us would be interested in reading something like that? Would anybody be interested in writing about it in this way? It seems to me as though there's so much thought and experience and wisdom going into this thread, it deserves a wider audience. And also, I get the feeling there are a lot of people out there desperate for a book that speaks more to the way their kids do not fit the traditional educational structure, even a supposedly alternative structure like TWTM.

I think there are already books available about homeschooling kids outside the traditional structure, and even homeschooling kids who are different/difficult/spectrumy/whatever, most of which are written by homeschooling parents for other homeschooling parents. But I would LOVE to see a book that covers the topic I bolded above, written by experts in different fields, about what are the most important things for kids to learn, and the most important skills to work on, for kids wanting to go into that field. I'd also like it to include interviews with adults who themselves were that way as kids (passionate about a particular area and/or not neurotypical), about what they felt were the most useful parts of their education, what parts were the most painful and counterproductive, what they would do differently, how they would design an education for a child who was like them, etc.

 

I think the greatest value in this conversation we're having is the interactivity of it. I have lots of books on homeschooling, full of underlining and notes and bent corners, but it's not the same thing as being able to ask other moms what they've done, what they would do in a particular situation, etc. And there are boards like this where homeschool parents can bounce ideas off each other. What I think is really lacking is the perspective of adult "versions" of the kids we're raising, and the opinions of experts in the fields we're preparing these kids for. Plus, a book like that would be relevant to all parents of kids like ours, not just homeschoolers.

 

Jackie

[swimmermom3]

I think the greatest value in this conversation we're having is the interactivity of it. I have lots of books on homeschooling, full of underlining and notes and bent corners, but it's not the same thing as being able to ask other moms what they've done, what they would do in a particular situation, etc. And there are boards like this where homeschool parents can bounce ideas off each other. What I think is really lacking is the perspective of adult "versions" of the kids we're raising, and the opinions of experts in the fields we're preparing these kids for. Plus, a book like that would be relevant to all parents of kids like ours, not just homeschoolers.

 

Jackie[/quote

 

I agree with Jackie about the content of the book. Also, I wanted to comment on Jackie's point about this conversation and the interactivity. Even with friends and fellow homeschoolers IRL, it can be difficult to connect with someone on these issues. I find that homeschooling the way I do and with my personal belief system, I am isolated in many ways. My dh is a tremendous support. For the majority of family and friends, my choice to homeschool is a direct indictment on their personal choices or they think I am just plain crazier than normal. To come here and discuss these issues is a tremendous relief and it has the added bonus of keeping my personal growth from stagnating.

 

Which reminds me it's time to once again express my gratitude to SWB for all that she does in providing us with this forum and wonderful resources like TWTM.

 

Pardon the interruption. I have to back up about 5 pages.:D

[Capt_Uhura]

[/quote

 

I agree with Jackie about the content of the book. Also, I wanted to comment on Jackie's point about this conversation and the interactivity. Even with friends and fellow homeschoolers IRL, it can be difficult to connect with someone on these issues. I find that homeschooling the way I do and with my personal belief system, I am isolated in many ways. My dh is a tremendous support. For the majority of family and friends, my choice to homeschool is a direct indictment on their personal choices or they think I am just plain crazier than normal. To come here and discuss these issues is a tremendous relief and it has the added bonus of keeping my personal growth from stagnating.

 

Which reminds me it's time to once again express my gratitude to SWB for all that she does in providing us with this forum and wonderful resources like TWTM.

 

 

What she said! :iagree:

[TKDmom]

Do you think anyone besides us would be interested in reading something like that? Would anybody be interested in writing about it in this way? It seems to me as though there's so much thought and experience and wisdom going into this thread, it deserves a wider audience. And also, I get the feeling there are a lot of people out there desperate for a book that speaks more to the way their kids do not fit the traditional educational structure, even a supposedly alternative structure like TWTM.

 

Yes!!

 

The books about a specific structure make me feel like, "If we just follow this, everything will turn out right. I can do this." But then, of course, can't do it just the way someone else has outlined. And I feel really guilty. And now here I am trying to figure out how to squeeze in 3 or 4 math programs, 3 LA programs, a couple of lit programs, different ideas of how to approach history, etc. All in an attempt to make our family fit into someone else's idea of the perfect structure. Reading about how other people's dc don't fit into the system and how they dealt with it is very liberating. I'm starting to get the courage just to do what is best for us. To go for depth where dc have a strong interest, and skip the material that is uninteresting and not particularly useful.

 

ETA: These are the kinds of things I need to read in addition to something like TWTM. I need the underlying structure, but I also need someone else's permission to deviate from it. :) And I like the idea of having anecdotes form lots of different people. One of the problems I have with many homeschooling books is that the author (perhaps unintentionally) conveys the idea that this is the way to do things.

Edited July 16, 2010 by bonniebeth4

[Nan in Mass]

Thinking further about why I am not enthusiastic about teaching skills via projects and passions...

 

Maybe it is just that I haven't had good luck teaching all skills in the context of a passion or a project. Some of them, yes. Over the last few days, I have watched my father teach my youngest navigation. My father is an excellent teacher, even though he doesn't do it for a living. (He is wired differently, by the way.) He is doing it before my youngest goes on a trip, and he is doing it by telling him to do the navigation for the trip. There is a real reason for doing the project. (My children tend to be highly suspicious of pretend problems and refuse to cooperate. Real problems, yes, but not manufactured problems. This would be one of the big problems of pbl, for my children.) He made him do it by hand and now he is about to make him do it electronically. My son is cooperating beautifully. My father would not be as willing to do it if he didn't. Nor would my father be willing to do it if my son had more than a few gaps in the underlieing skills needed for this sort of thing. My son already knows arthmetic, how to use a protractor, about lat and long, how to draw a line with a ruler (I'm not being facicious - there are tricks to doing it accurately), rt=d, how to read a weather printout, how to read a chart, and how to sail. My father certainly doesn't mind reminding him of any particular thing he has forgotten, and filling in any gaps, but he doesn't want to start at the beginning. Since my father taught my son how to do many of the things on my list in the first place, he has a pretty good idea of which bits need to be taught and which bits don't. My son didn't learn any of those skills during our school time, even arithmetic or reading; I'm not saying that skills can't be taught by project or problem or question-and-answer sessions. I just think that when they get older, it gets harder. It is one thing when the teacher is my father, who has had a huge hand in educating my children all the way along. It would be a different story if I handed my child over to an outside expert to be taught and encouraged. I would be leery of handing him over unless I knew that I had taught the child the basics, unless I knew that the child was willing, unless I knew that the child was not going to be a burden. Most outside experts have been school taught and are unaware of what sorts of holes a home taught child can have. This could lead to the child being too embarrassed to speak up and say they don't understand. I would be leery of handing over my child unless I knew my child were going to speak up about what he didn't understand. The child has to be able and willing to say if the situation isn't working out, and you have to be willing and able to end it. There is also the matter of the delicate negotiations involved with asking someone to teach your child for free. It is very difficult to do it properly, I think, because we don't have a good cultural framework for this. My children have had mentors, but they have tended to be situations where the people were from cultures where this sort of relationship is normal, or from situations within our culture where that sort of situation is normal (like sports).

 

I know from my own experiences with trying to teach by project that unless everything is just right, the experience turns out to be like this thread: you go to teach something and discover you need to know something else first, so you try to teach that and discover something else is needed, you teach that and then can't remember what it was you were trying to teach earlier. It is one thing if the child is teaching himself and is free to abandon projects that are too hard, or which turn out to be a lot of boring hard work for almost nothing, or which don't seem to be going in the right direction. If you are trying to teach via projects, it is very flattening to get a project all set up because the child says they are interested, work out how to teach the skills in context, gather all the materials, and then having the child want to abandon it. Project based learning or problem based learning probably works fine in school, where the child has no say in what the projects are, but in my experience, it doesn't work very well at home, where the child has more say. And that is leaving out the whole question of what spoils a project.

 

What I do think works fairly well is to let the children the children teach themselves via projects, asking you to teach them the things they have discovered they need. But I think, in order not to be at a disadvantage, you need to reserve the right to direct teach any skills that aren't getting covered, or at least the right to choose the project and insist that they complete it. And you may discover that that makes your part of their education less efficient than direct teaching, and you all may decide that you prefer direct teaching. This is what I meant by pbl being akin to traditional, school-style, subject based learning - in both of them, the teacher chooses what is going to be done.

 

If you aren't trying to prepare your child to switch to a standard education at the end of high school, then I think letting them teach themselves via projects probably works fine.

 

Just some thoughts on the nitty gritty...

 

In my experience, letting them teach themselves via projects (especially if you help them when asked, make careful suggestions, and protect their work time) works well, especially for those children who are wired differently, but you still need to have a bit of traditional school time as well.

-Nan

Edited July 16, 2010 by Nan in Mass

[prairiegirl]

Every time I get caught up on reading this thread, it's time for me to get off of the computer so I never have time to comment. There are a million things I want to say but I will narrow it down to one, okay, two things.

I don't have time to quote either so bear with me.

 

Karen's metaphor of her daughter's book and Elizabeth's response of filling Karen's dd's book in the way that is meaningful to her (Karen's dd) made me cry. I have been feeling lately that my book was filled the wrong way. My interests and passions are not the same as everyone else's. I hate scrapbooking, gardening, photography, passions that are acceptable to the world. My passions include reading, researching, philosophy, history. Those passions do not translate well into this world. So, during the past few years, I have been thinking that there is something seriously wrong with me. It has only been the past few months that I am starting to appreciate how my book has been filled. I wish I had had someone in my life as I was growing up that would have encouraged me in how I was filling my book. Even now that I am an adult, encouragement would be nice.

 

This makes me think about how my children's books are being filled. The way things look now, my children may not be able to handle college. This has bothered me for awhile. After having read this thread, though, I realize that I have to help my children fill the pages of their books in a way that makes their heart sing and not how society thinks their books should be filled.

 

Now for a question. I have been reading the last 10 pages hoping someone would answer my question so I wouldn't have to risk sounding silly. No one has helped me in that regard so I am throwing caution to the wind and asking it myself: What are cloud children?

 

This post is written in a rambling manner. I apologize but I don't have time to fix it.

[Guest]

Nan, I have a love-hate relationship with TWTM. I know SWB says it's about a process, but I don't think that's entirely accurate. There is an awful lot of prescriptive thinking and what I have come to think of as limiting talk about content: not only what to include, but in what order, and even how to think about it. For instance, history is always chronological, from year one. You may read it in narrative, non-textbook form for your spine, but the focus is on political history: rulers, state formation, wars. There are other types of history, but when TWTM gives examples of lists to memorize, it suggests rulers in chronological order. Now it also adds that of course your child could memorize something different, but if you are coming to the book as a non-historical expert, someone who hasn't followed history or read a lot of it, you're going to think this is what "counts," what must take primacy, this is what is important in history. I find similar prescriptive thinking in a number of subject areas.

 

I also find that depth plays a subordinate role to breadth until high school. Yes, on one hand you follow a spine and then your child is "allowed" to find books on specifics that interest him or her (taken from that spine unless you're really good at searching around a lot) and even dwell on them -- for a couple of weeks, or even a month. Then it's back to your regularly scheduled programming, and the child's interest moves from being the content of history "class," if you wish, to being something that is pursued outside of school hours, on his own time.

 

And look at how many of us have been thinking we needed to put a child's expressed interest on hold until it "fit" into the chronological era we are formally studying. Okay, maybe we're all just dim; but I don't think so. It's very hard to break out of what is presented to us as the ideal form and process -- and that includes the order in which things are ideally encountered and learned.

 

I think your point about expclitly teaching certain skills -- including organization and other life skills as well as academic ones -- exlicitly is going to be crucial for many people. My daughter, on the other hand, picks up many those skills as if by osmosis. I walked away from the whole narration/summary/outlining process quite early on because she just wasn't interested or ready/able. We did nothing but have general discussions about articles and books we found fascinating, for a number of years. No summaries, no pulling out of main points as an exercise, nothing. When she sat down in 8th grade she could write excellent outlines. Where did that come from? No clue. I certainly didn't put it there. So we're going to have a VERY different relationship to the "process" emphasis of TWTM, its orderly progression from building blocks to larger parts to outlining to "original" writing. So is a child for whom developing and practicing skills across every subject is just going to destroy the pleasure of learning. So is the child who may acquire those very skills precisely by being willing to learn them within his area of passionate interest.

 

I notice many people talking about the continued necessity of chronological coverage in history. They talk with pleasure about what their children find to explore in more detail, but then about how they "slog on" through the chronological spine because they are convinced they need to do this. If the process and the content become drudgery, is it a matter of the choice of spine? Of the outlining associated with it? Or could is also possibly be, for some kids, that the way of thought exemplified by this type of approach doesn't fit and will not stick no matter how many times you go through the cycle? If this same kid remembers anything and everything from a book on a topic of their choice within a wider historical frame, wouldn't it be a better choice to find as many good fits like this as possible, make larger connections informally through discussion (or not), and return later -- or possibly (gasp) not at all -- to a survey? Might there be hidden ways of organizing or prioritizing information that child is using that are simply different? If you have such a strong leaning toward a certain method of thinking yourself, it's so easy to assume that is the way people think and need to learn to think.

 

To go back to my book metaphor, the SWB model is not a mass produced textbook like that represented by a one-size-fits-all public school education. It, too, is hand-made. It, too, is individualized. But not in overall structure; not in the tidy divisions that are pre-tabbed for each subject and for categories within each subject (famous people, art, literature, discoveries, science and technology in the history notebook, for instance). In other words, it prescribes order. It prescribes a certain relationship, at particular times, between breadth and depth. This relationship may work brilliantly well for many people and may be, for them, a wonderful balanced relationship. For other people it isn't. That goes back to the very first post that started this thread.

 

There is much to admire, much to strive after, from TWTM. I am not criticizing the idea of a classical education, its goals, or its structure. I am saying that structure, and some of the prescribed methods of getting to the goals, don't work for my daughter. I think we're all casting about for an idea of how much we can depart from a model we truly admire in order to keep its goals and some of its processes in mind, while also remaining true to our particular children's ways of learning. It's precisely because my kid doesn't need to be taught skills explicitly, while one of yours does, that the type of book I am talking about would be useful, i think.

 

But I also think that's perhaps best left to the interactive part of boards like this. I think what might help readers in general most is a collection of thoughts and perspectives from adults working in particular fields: engineers clearly, as lot of kids lean that way; naturalists; chemists; theoretical scientists. Writers: academic writers, but also popular writers, creative writers, poets, science writers, journalists, comic strip writers, lyricists, satirists. That's the idea -- that there is an enormous spectrum within each field, and the kind of advice we get from general educational overviews doesn't give us an idea of the variety out there or the paths they take to get where they are.

 

The WTM is written from a humanities perspective, quite thoroughly (although I think the perspective comes with some prescriptive mechanics I don't necessarily make a good fit for every child who has a liberal arts turn of mind, as I've said). I've always been struck by its relative thinness in science and the arts and to some extent in math, in its adherence to the most narrow and conventional path through higher level math as well as in its textbook-workbook model for lower grades. People who have specialized in math, science, or the arts would bring something very different to the planning table which I think lots of people would benefit from. People with scientific-minded kids are having to re-invent the wheel for their kids when they try to look beyond the classical model of science. That re-inventing takes so much energy and time, and is so stressful; plus it can feel like a very isolated endeavor. When we trade stories of what our kids are doing, there's so much delighted surprise, because no one can think up all the different aspects of the world of knowledge our kids end up being attracted to, or come up with all the ways to expand or nurture that, from scratch, as we are trying to do everything else.

 

 

My husband is currently reading a book in which scientists from all fields talk about their early childhood explorations and how they feel these pursuits relate to what they're doing as adults. Interestingly, some are really the furthest things from what you'd expect. One that stood out to me was a theoretical scientist talking about how she discovered one day that she could take the three sections of the braided tail she was making on her My Little Pony and braid each section; then she could take each one of THOSE sections and divide it into three and braid them... I think she got quite far, until each strand of a braid had about two hairs in it. She talks about how when she got to recursive series in math she was so thrilled because she had a memory of that braiding process and it all clicked together for her.

 

So many scientists talk about Legos that there's an entire chapter on that.

 

Complete break in train of thought: I don't think I've ever been saying that skills don't need to be taught, or that content doesn't need to be taught. What I've been saying is that the order in which those skills are taught can vary dramatically -- really dramatically, as in being inverted or reversed or completely flipped. Some of the basics kids need to acquire don't have to be taught (mine taught herself to read before it ever occurred to me that it was time to begin phonics), but this will vary from child to child and across skill areas or subjects. And furthermore, both the manner and the context in which those skills are taught can also vary tremendously.

 

When my posts get this long I know I've started going around in circles and am making knots, so I'll stop. But I am so loving this whole discussion.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Guest

[AuntPol]

Nan - that is why I like to do a good basic education of breadth and then allow time for projects based learning or following passions.

 

My daughter loves to cook and we measured and discussed fractions for years but when she hit fractions in math, she could not do them. The skill never sunk in that way. Cooking did not make her fractions easier. However learning fractions made cooking easier.

 

I also know that I need a mixture to learn. When I learned history via textbook and questions, I could remember the facts long enough to take the test and then flush. If I read history never covered by textbook via historical fiction, I struggle with understanding the book. However, when I have both, I retain it and understand it.

[JennW in SoCal]

Karen, there is an unwritten rule on this board that if you talk about a book you MUST also include the title of the book. Inquiring minds want to know exactly what book your dh is reading!!!

 

OK, maybe it isn't a hard and fast rule, but it ought to be:D

[AuntPol]

 

I notice many people talking about the continued necessity of chronological coverage in history. They talk with pleasure about what their children find to explore in more detail, but then about how they "slog on" through the chronological spine because they are convinced they need to do this. If the process and the content become drudgery, is it a matter of the choice of spine?

 

 

 

 

Since I am the only one who used the term "slog on" in this thread, I want to clarify that it's not drudgery to move on to another topic but was trying to say we keep on going. My kids enjoy history -just different aspects of it. It's hard to say we have a spine because we have several spines and use a variety of items and methods. I think it would be hard for my kids to not love history, since I was geopolitical analyst in the military and used to own an antique store and my DH is a military history buff and and my parents own an antique business.

 

On the otherhand, I have to insist we move on. If I didn't, my daughter would still be in Ancient Greece. My son of course will move on to anything that is related to a battle.

 

And course, it always helps when you connect dots. Studying Shakespeare in the Rennaissance is more fun when you read A Midsummer Night's Dream and it's mythology and mention of ancient times. Then branch off to Tempest with it's magic references and then look at how it was based on history which leads to Jamestown, etc. You can't discuss this battle without comparing it to the strategy of a battle years or centuries before. It just happens.]

 

Besides, I make anything interesting and my kids will love it as long as I can keep them away from video games and tv. If they think they can do those two things, they will drop any passion for the passivity. Also much depends on my attitude, if I am distracted and would rather be on the WTM forums talking about education instead of actually educating that day, they are restless too and start getting into the "just do it and get it over with" mood.

 

Honestly, I find homeschooling thrilling but exhausting. Two kids with two different personalities and learning styles that are too close in age to just teach separately. Always trying to find that balance of when to push, when to ease off, what to strew and what needs reverse psychology, how much is "enough" for their age and ability, working on weaknesses while playing on strengths, building confidence without inflating egos, challenging without overly frustrating, figuring out what to do "now" because the best laid plans (weeks of planning too) are not working "now" because child is not grasping/hit a wall or somehow child picked this topic up through osmosis and I'm wasting my time to cover it again, when I have to be honest with myself when I am being lazy and calling it flexible or being rigid and calling it "challenging" etc. When to take advantage of the unforeseen oppotunities and when to carry on with "the plan" and when just to call it a day and go out for ice cream (and when to take kids with me to get that ice cream lol). Then I think how some of you have even more children/personalities or widespread age gaps and I think my lucky stars.

Edited July 16, 2010 by AuntPol

[swimmermom3]

Every time I get caught up on reading this thread, it's time for me to get off of the computer so I never have time to comment. There are a million things I want to say but I will narrow it down to one, okay, two things.

I don't have time to quote either so bear with me.

 

Karen's metaphor of her daughter's book and Elizabeth's response of filling Karen's dd's book in the way that is meaningful to her (Karen's dd) made me cry. I have been feeling lately that my book was filled the wrong way. My interests and passions are not the same as everyone else's. I hate scrapbooking, gardening, photography, passions that are acceptable to the world. My passions include reading, researching, philosophy, history. Those passions do not translate well into this world. So, during the past few years, I have been thinking that there is something seriously wrong with me. It has only been the past few months that I am starting to appreciate how my book has been filled. I wish I had had someone in my life as I was growing up that would have encouraged me in how I was filling my book. Even now that I am an adult, encouragement would be nice.

 

This makes me think about how my children's books are being filled. The way things look now, my children may not be able to handle college. This has bothered me for awhile. After having read this thread, though, I realize that I have to help my children fill the pages of their books in a way that makes their heart sing and not how society thinks their books should be filled.

 

Now for a question. I have been reading the last 10 pages hoping someone would answer my question so I wouldn't have to risk sounding silly. No one has helped me in that regard so I am throwing caution to the wind and asking it myself: What are cloud children?

 

This post is written in a rambling manner. I apologize but I don't have time to fix it.

 

Julia, thanks so much for hanging in there with us and being a valuable part of the conversation. I suspect that if you examined the individual books of the parents on this thread, you would find more that have much in common with you than don't with regards to interest.:grouphug:

 

I choose to interpret Nan's description of cloud children as children who are predominantly non-traditional learners for whatever reason, physiologically or psychologically.

[Guest]

Since I am the only one who used the term "slog on" in this thread, I want to clarify that it's not drudgery to move on to another topic but was trying to say we keep on going.

 

 

Sorry-- did not mean to single you out. I sometimes intermix things I'm hearing on the boards with things in PMs and other correspondence, and it does seem to be a general theme I've picked up on in all of these arenas, that history or science coverage/survey/breadth is something many homeschoolers feel compelled to do and not something their children (or even the parents) necessary find particularly engaging, memorable, or productive. I'm in this camp myself; my child is not one who is enthralled by either just-the-facts-ma'am types of books or story-type narrative. So lots of us are questioning the value of persisting with this in the face of either a child's disinterest or, perhaps more importantly, a child's way of organizing and thinking about and approaching material that does not lend itself to this survey-type overview.

 

It is equally clear there are many, many parents and their children who love it.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Guest

[Guest]

Karen, there is an unwritten rule on this board that if you talk about a book you MUST also include the title of the book. Inquiring minds want to know exactly what book your dh is reading!!!

 

OK, maybe it isn't a hard and fast rule, but it ought to be:D

 

Sorry, sorry -- I hate it when other people do this, so I ought to know better.

 

It's called Falling For Science: Objects in Mind, edited by Sherry Turkle.

[AuntPol]

I have been feeling lately that my book was filled the wrong way. My interests and passions are not the same as everyone else's. I hate scrapbooking, gardening, photography, passions that are acceptable to the world. My passions include reading, researching, philosophy, history. Those passions do not translate well into this world. So, during the past few years, I have been thinking that there is something seriously wrong with me.

 

Nothing wrong with you unless there is something wrong with me because those are my passions too.

[Rhea]

My dd and I just read from Essay Voyage, and I was amazed by the quotes from Emerson. It was as if he'd joined in the conversation here. (At least in my head! I hope you all see it too.)

 

From page 42:

 

 

Man is thus metamorphosed into a thing, into many things. The planter, who is Man sent out into the field to gather food, is seldom cheered by any idea of the true dignity of his ministry. He sees his bushel and his cart, and nothing beyond, and sinks into the farmer, instead of Man on the farm. The tradesman scarcely ever gives an ideal worth to his work, but is ridden by the routine of his craft; and the soul is subject to dollars. The priest becomes a form; the attorney, a statue-book; the mechanic, a machine; the sailor, a rope of a ship.

 

 

 

In this distribution of functions, the scholar is the delegated intellect. In the right state, he is, Man Thinking. In the degenerate state, when the victim of society, he tends to become a mere thinker, or, still worse, the parrot of other men's thinking.

 

 

Page 43:

 

 

 

Books are the best of things, well used; abused, among the worst. What is the right use? What is the one end, which all means go to effect: They are for nothing but to inspire. I had better never see a book, than to be warped by its attraction clean out of my own orbit, and made a satellite instead of a system. The one thing in the world of value, is the active soul. This every man is entitled to; this every man contains within him, although, in almost all men, obstructed, and as yet unborn. The soul active sees absolute truth; and utters truth, or creates. In this action, it is genius; not the privilege of here and there a favorite, but the sound estate of every man. In its essence, it is progressive. The book, the college, the school of art, the institution of any kind, stop with some past utterance of genius. This is good, say they, -- let us hold by this. They pin me down. They look backward and not forward. But genius looks forward: the eyes of man are set in his forehead, not in his hindhead: man hopes: genius creates. Whatever talents may be, if the create not, the pure efflux of the Deity is not his; -- cinders and smoke there may be, but not yet flame. There are creative manners, there are creative actions, and creative words; manner, actions, words that is indicative of no custom or authority, but springing spontaneous from the mind's own sense of good and fair.

 

 

 

On the other part, instead of being its own seer, let it receive from another mind its truth, thought it were in torrents of light, without periods of solitude, inquest, and self recovery, and a fatal disservice is done. Genius is always sufficiently the enemy of genius by over influence. The literature of every nation bear me witness. The English dramatic poets have Shakespearized now for two hundred years.

 

 

 

Undoubtedly there is a right way of reading, so it be sternly subordinated. Man Thinking must not be subdued by his instruments. Books are for the scholar's idle times. When he can read God directly, the hour is to precious to be wasted in other men's transcripts of their readings. But when the intervals of darkness come, as come they must, -- when the sun is hid, and the stars withdraw their shining, -- we repair to the lamps which were kindled by their ray, to guide our steps to the East again, where the dawn is. We hear, that we may speak. The Arabian proverb says, "A fig tree, looking on a fig tree, becometh fruitful."

 

 

Rarely has so much respect for learning been accompanied by so much caution about the over-influence of learning on the individual. Emerson wanted us to be propelled by the ideas of literature. - MCT

[TKDmom]

My dd and I just read from Essay Voyage, and I was amazed by the quotes from Emerson. It was as if he'd joined in the conversation here. (At least in my head! I hope you all see it too.)

 

That was amazing. Thank you for sharing.

[Nan in Mass]

Hmm... As I was reading your post, I kept thinking, "Well, we just didn't do that part of TWTM." I have always wondered if my copy of TWTM was different than other people LOL. My family inevitably customizes anything we get near. One of the things I have always appreciated about TWTM is that it is full of little asides telling you how to alter things or not to do this if it doesn't work for you. I look at it as a framework that explains how to teach anything you want. If mine could do a skill easily, I didn't bother to teach it. Mine have no trouble picking out grammar patterns and I don't really care if they can't spell, so we never did more than about a quarter of a grammar book. I never worried if my children's methods of catagorizing were different than mine. And I thought the literature/history lists were nice because they weren't all kings and war. We particularly like the History of Everyday Things series. I liked that TWTM included lots of drawing as well as writing. I liked the non-specific science in the early years. Mine loved their nature guides and did lots of their own experiments. TWTM even includes information on how to turn something like peacewalking into something that colleges will accept for academic credit (add a paper GRIN). And where I didn't like the directions, I did something else altogether. High school science is one of those cases. At one point, SWB said that she included directions for taking many subjects all the way to a high level, but she never meant everyone to get to a high level in everything. I took that as permission not to do rhetoric GRIN. My only regret is that when a skill was easy so we didn't work on it, I didn't keep checking to make sure that my children were able to apply the skill to the increasingly advanced material as they grew older. For example, my children have always been able to summerize plots of books easily, so we never have narrated literature. Now that my youngest is reading in French and not understanding so easily, I have found that narrating is important and for the first time, at 16, he needs to do it. Also, regarding narration, since it was easy for them, I didn't bother to check, and I now find that it isn't easy for them when it comes to some of the adult-level science books. I think we all agree that it is important to teach a child the tricks to help one read something that one finds difficult (if he didn't figure them out for himself). I appreciate having TWTM tell me what the trick is and how to teach it using any book I want, rather than recommending a workbook or textbook which teaches the trick.

 

I agree with you that many people seem to miss those bits and turn what is supposed to be a set of guidelines for an exploratory, interesting, passion-accommodating, as little slogging as possible sort of education into a school-at-home nightmare. If I were SWB and JW, I would be tearing my hair out.

 

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I've been reading Assimov's Foundation (for escape) and it says the same thing LOL.

It is nice to see some of that Emerson essay in context. We read it a few years ago and were underimpressed. My children said, "But that is so obvious!" It is, in general, but when you look at it in this context, it looks more valuable.

[AuntPol]

Sorry-- did not mean to single you out. I sometimes intermix things I'm hearing on the boards with things in PMs and other correspondence, and it does seem to be a general theme I've picked up on in all of these arenas, that history or science coverage/survey/breadth is something many homeschoolers feel compelled to do and not something their children (or even the parents) necessary find particularly engaging, memorable, or productive. I'm in this camp myself; my child is not one who is enthralled by either just-the-facts-ma'am types of books or story-type narrative. So lots of us are questioning the value of persisting with this in the face of either a child's disinterest or, perhaps more importantly, a child's way of organizing and thinking about and approaching material that does not lend itself to this survey-type overview.

 

It is equally clear there are many, many parents and their children who love it.

 

My life mottos

 

"If it not broke, don't fix it but it's broken, get out of the house before it becomes clutter"

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results"

"Sometimes you just have to suck it up" (or "No pain/no gain")

[Corraleno]

Now for a question. I have been reading the last 10 pages hoping someone would answer my question so I wouldn't have to risk sounding silly. No one has helped me in that regard so I am throwing caution to the wind and asking it myself: What are cloud children?

 

I think it started when I was trying to describe how my DH & DS think:

Me, too. DH says I "think in outline format and argue in bulleted lists." :tongue_smilie: DH and DS, on the other hand, think in clouds of images, linked together with threads like spider webs. I can't even imagine thinking like that, and it does make it difficult for them to retrieve information if it's out of context, but on the other hand it allows them to make really interesting and original connections between things that other people (like me) might not connect. And it seems much less important to them what order they learn things in. In fact, one of DH's biggest "communication" problems is that he always seems to start in the middle of whatever story he's trying to tell, so I'm constantly interrupting him with questions like "what guy?" and "when did that happen?" and "why would he say that?" Putting the story together is like assembling a puzzle, and then when I have all the pieces I need to recite it back to him, in the correct order, to see if I got it right!

 

Realizing that about DS is actually kind of freeing, because it makes it so much easier to be flexible and just go with whatever he's interested in when he's interested in pursuing it, without having to worry about whether we're doing it "out of order."

 

Jackie

 

And then people began using it to describe the kind of child who thinks like this. It's not (as far as I know) a term that's been used in books or anything.

 

Jackie

[Nan in Mass]

You know, I think I am sounding much more confident in this thread than I really am. I lie awake many, many nights agonizing over whether I am giving my youngest enough material to be creative with. Should he belong to the local robotics club? the chess club? spend more time learning electronic? more time reading Science News? more time building something cool? Or whether I am giving him enough time to work on his own projects. Or whether I am working enough on skills so that he will be able to manage engineering school (if he wants to). Or whether he will do enough projects and be interesting enough to get into an interesting engineering school (we aren't planning on AP physics, AP math, or AP chem and he doesn't belong to the robotics club and he isn't building his own fully functioning Mars rover or inventing a better mouse). Or whether we are giving him the skills he needs to get good grades in CC chem, calc, and physics? Many of those are mutually exclusive items. Arg.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Yes. That is what I was thinking of. Since then, the definition had gotten expanded a bit and that is fine, too. These cloud children are like clouds - hard to pin down, hard to define, growing all over at the same time, or shrinking, but never staying the same. And oh so dear.

-Nan

[elegantlion]

How DO you catch a cloud and pin it down?

 

Now I have The Sound of Music in my head. Maybe we're all raising Marias.

 

(one nun at a time)

She climbs a tree

And scrapes her knee

 

Her dress has got a tear

 

She waltzs on her way to mass

And whistles on the stair

 

And underneath her wimple

She has curlers in her hair!

 

I've even heard her singing in the abbey

 

She's always late for chappe,

 

But her penitence is real

 

She's always late for everything

 

Except for every meal

 

I hate to have to say it but I very firmly feel

 

(all together)

Maria's not an asset to the abbey

 

(one nun)

I'd like to say a word in her behalf:

Maria makes me laugh

 

(all nuns laugh)

 

(all nuns)

How do you solve a problem like maria?

How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?

How do you find a word that means Maria?

 

(one nun at a time)

A flibbertajibbit?

 

A will of a whisp

 

a clown

 

Many a thing you know you'd like tell her

Many a thing she ought to understand

 

But how do you make her stay?

And listen to all you say

 

how do you keep a wave upon the sand?

 

Oh how do you solve a problem like Maria?

How do you hold a moon beam in your hand?

 

When I'm with her

I'm confused

Out of focus

And bemused

And I never know exactly where I am

 

(one nun at a time)

Unpredictable as weather

 

She's as flighty as a feather

 

She's a darling

 

She's a demon

 

She's a lamb

 

She'd out pester any pest

Drive a hornet from its nest

 

She can throw a twirling dervish out of whirl

 

She is gentle

She is wild

 

She's a riddle

She's a child

 

She's a headache

 

She's an angel

 

She's a girl!!

 

(all at once)

How do you solve a problem like Maria?

How do you catch a cloud and pin it down?

How do you find a word that means Maria?

 

A flibbertajjibet

A will of a wisp

A clown

 

Many a thing you know you'd like to tell her

Many a thing she ought to understand

But how do you make her stay?

And listen to all you say

How do you keep a wave upon the sand?

Oh how do you solve a problem like maria?

How do you hold a moon beam in your hand?

[Rosie_0801]

I have been feeling lately that my book was filled the wrong way. My interests and passions are not the same as everyone else's. My passions include reading, researching, philosophy, history. Those passions do not translate well into this world. So, during the past few years, I have been thinking that there is something seriously wrong with me.

 

:grouphug: There's nothing wrong with you. You just haven't found the right set of geeks to play with. :) I know plenty of people into those things. I know people so into those things they might even make you feel mundane! (That's a dare. Go on, I bet you aren't geekier in this particular way than one of my friends :tongue_smilie:)

 

 

:grouphug:

Rosie

[swimmermom3]

You know, I think I am sounding much more confident in this thread than I really am. I lie awake many, many nights agonizing over whether I am giving my youngest enough material to be creative with. Should he belong to the local robotics club? the chess club? spend more time learning electronic? more time reading Science News? more time building something cool? Or whether I am giving him enough time to work on his own projects. Or whether I am working enough on skills so that he will be able to manage engineering school (if he wants to). Or whether he will do enough projects and be interesting enough to get into an interesting engineering school (we aren't planning on AP physics, AP math, or AP chem and he doesn't belong to the robotics club and he isn't building his own fully functioning Mars rover or inventing a better mouse). Or whether we are giving him the skills he needs to get good grades in CC chem, calc, and physics? Many of those are mutually exclusive items. Arg.

-Nan

 

Nan, you are climbing the tree again! Oh, that's right; we are taking turns!;) This is basically where I was at when this thread started. The only thing I know to do when things get to this point is to back it down to the basics, the priorities. I know that's hard. For me, that means math and a pared down language arts program: grammar, vocabulary, and composition. If I do these things really well, he has an education. It's not deep, nor is it broad but all of it is highly useful for Swimmer Dude's life. Literary analysis is the next step because it is where we do our best thinking. I have been toying with a writing program that teaching more critical thinking than your average writing program. My goal is that the components that I have chosen will do double duty and I won't teach any logic course. This sounds very traditional when I look at it but there is far more discussion than paperwork. I'm not saying this is a plan of action, but it's a bit like decorating a room. If a room has been one way for far too long, I have to strip it out and then put back piece by piece what I both love and what is absolutely necessary. I need to temporarily remove the visual clutter so that I can see the individual item's value in the overall scheme of things and ask myself once again why it's there.

[Nan in Mass]

: )

I missed that LOL. Well, consciously anyway.

How apt!

-Nan

[swimmermom3]

Oh yeah, I forgot that one critical point that the room's owner needs to be able to live with the new arrangement.:tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously, Nan, what your boys do know is amazing. We've talked before how your family is just not a sit on the bank and watch the river of life flow by type of family. There is nothing wrong with that and lots that's absolutely amazing with it. How rich, how exciting, how satisfying, and how nerve-wracking. Give yourself some credit for doing everything you've done so far. Again, I think it is so easy to focus on what we are doing wrong (or what we think is wrong) and not realize all that we are doing well, really well.

[Nan in Mass]

Sigh. You are right. I still have that goal that you bolded for me way back (nice and specific, huh?). It is in a file on my desktop. If I remember correctly, that pretty much defined that balance and I just had to use that as a filter. I will go look at it now. GRIN You are right. We seem to be taking turns.

Hugs,

Nan

[swimmermom3]

Elegantlion, I think a better question is "Do we want to catch a cloud and pin it down?"

[Nan in Mass]

Not Elegantlion, but I don't think we do. I don't think I am in any danger of doing so, either LOL. I don't think I could even if I wanted to. My clouds are too strong and too fast. Clouds who do gymnastics (I'm not talking about physical strength) are strong clouds.

[Corraleno]

The WTM is written from a humanities perspective, quite thoroughly (although I think the perspective comes with some prescriptive mechanics I don't necessarily make a good fit for every child who has a liberal arts turn of mind, as I've said). I've always been struck by its relative thinness in science and the arts and to some extent in math, in its adherence to the most narrow and conventional path through higher level math as well as in its textbook-workbook model for lower grades. People who have specialized in math, science, or the arts would bring something very different to the planning table which I think lots of people would benefit from. People with scientific-minded kids are having to re-invent the wheel for their kids when they try to look beyond the classical model of science. That re-inventing takes so much energy and time, and is so stressful; plus it can feel like a very isolated endeavor. When we trade stories of what our kids are doing, there's so much delighted surprise, because no one can think up all the different aspects of the world of knowledge our kids end up being attracted to, or come up with all the ways to expand or nurture that, from scratch, as we are trying to do everything else.

YES! And not only is TWTM skewed strongly towards humanities, but so are many of the "breadth requirements" at universities — which makes things doubly difficult for those of us with sciencey kids who are not very good at the verbally-oriented humanities subjects. Not only do we have to find innovative ways of teaching science to non-textbooky kids, we can't really back off the humanities subjects too much to make room for more science, because they have to take soooo many of those courses in college.

 

Our state university requires math and science majors to take something like 3 English courses, 3 Humanities (History/Lit/Philosophy), and 4 Social Science. Humanities types only need 2 math and 2 science courses, and they have a selection of special lower-level "non-majors" courses to choose from, because of course you can't expect a history major to take General Chemistry. :rolleyes: Yet they do expect Math/Science/Engineering majors to take the same English/Lit/Phil/SocSci courses as everyone else — and write the same papers, do the same literary analysis, etc. For me, that's the biggest thing that holds me back from letting DS just really fly with his science interests — worrying that he won't be able to write a literary analysis paper, or a persuasive argument for a philosophy class, etc.

 

I think the discussion here, about teaching the basic needed-for-college skills separately from the area of passion will help me a lot in that regard. I like the idea of combining history/literature/philosophy/comparative religion into one big "History of Ideas" type course, and teaching the basic skills in that, while allowing a lot of flexibility in choice of topics. If I focus on specific topics and a specific set of skills, and let go of trying to achieve universal coverage of all those subjects, that in itself should free up a lot of time for doing multiple science subjects (instead of one per year) in a much more fluid, hands-on, discovery-based way.

 

Jackie

[Nan in Mass]

Ok. I've read that file GRIN. "...give my son the education he deserves in basic academic skills plus the whatever else he is interested in, in a really efficient way so that he has plenty of time to do other things." And it is as reassuringly specific as it was before. Maybe I better write it out and stick it on the refridgerator. My mother just said something similar to what you said, that maybe my son won't do mainstream engineering and I needn't be worrying about it, that he may well do something less mainstream and it won't matter if he has the mainstream qualifications. I suppose I should remember that he is young, yet, to move out of the dreaming/designing stage into the actually making it stage. Life is good, right? Especially in summer? As long as nobody kills themselves in little boats?

-Nan

[PeterPan]

Karen you're killing me. What is the name of the book your dh is reading? :)

[Guest]

Karen you're killing me. What is the name of the book your dh is reading? :)

 

I already abased myself and put in the title, but I'll do it again here (both the abasement and the title):

 

Sorry -- I hate it when other people leave me hanging, so I should have known better than to do it to somebody else.

 

Falling For Science: Objects in Mind, edited by Sherry Turkle.

Edited July 17, 2010 by Guest

[Nan in Mass]

Did you know that drawing counts as a humanity elective? My engineering-minded son was very excited to discover that. Speech counts as one some places, too.

 

You are right in that it is totally unfair. They do better with the engineering students.

 

Sometimes it seems to me like the aim of a classical education is to produce politicians and lawyers. Oh yah, it was, originally, wasn't LOL?

 

-Nan

[Guest]

YES! And not only is TWTM skewed strongly towards humanities, but so are many of the "breadth requirements" at universities — which makes things doubly difficult for those of us with sciencey kids who are not very good at the verbally-oriented humanities subjects. Not only do we have to find innovative ways of teaching science to non-textbooky kids, we can't really back off the humanities subjects too much to make room for more science, because they have to take soooo many of those courses in college.

 

Our state university requires math and science majors to take something like 3 English courses, 3 Humanities (History/Lit/Philosophy), and 4 Social Science. Humanities types only need 2 math and 2 science courses, and they have a selection of special lower-level "non-majors" courses to choose from, because of course you can't expect a history major to take General Chemistry. :rolleyes: Yet they do expect Math/Science/Engineering majors to take the same English/Lit/Phil/SocSci courses as everyone else — and write the same papers, do the same literary analysis, etc. For me, that's the biggest thing that holds me back from letting DS just really fly with his science interests — worrying that he won't be able to write a literary analysis paper, or a persuasive argument for a philosophy class, etc.

 

 

Jackie

 

You know, I never thought about this, but you are absolutely right. There's no "Engineer's Lit" or "Poets For Chemists." And the writing students do for lit classes is completely different than that which they have to do for most math-based advanced science or grad school. For this reason, writing programs in a number of universities are shifting from the writing process or types of essay programs into "writing within the disciplines," where they lay out for students the conventions and expectations governing various fields.

 

Also, I'm now remembering one of the last classes I taught in 18th-century lit, and having this group of hulking great guys, older guys, sitting in the back. I went through my spiel about the course, why the 18th century was so fascinating, what the theme or organizing framework I'd chosen allowed us to discover about the culture, etc. Then, when I had talked for fifty minutes and asked if there were any questions, Biggest Hulking Guy, obviously speaking for all of his buddies, raised his hand and demanded, "Are you grading on a curve?"

 

Grading on a curve is a huge issue in the sciences (especially physics), but I'd been away from that for so long it had no meaning to me anymore. I said no, the guys disappeared en masse and never came back.

 

(This isn't a put-down of science students' concerns, just evidence of exactly the kind of problem you were pointing out in your post.)

[PeterPan]

Paula, you'll be horrified (or find it ironic) that I used to sing that song to my dd when changing her diaper (inserting her name of course). Too funny, eh? :)

[Corraleno]

Did you know that drawing counts as a humanity elective? My engineering-minded son was very excited to discover that. Speech counts as one some places, too.

I forgot to add — our state university also requires 2 arts classes, at least one of which must be an art history type class; only one can be a studio class like drawing. Because, you know, it's critical that a chemist be able to write a literary analysis essay and recognize the names and dates of various Renaissance artists, but it's perfectly OK if an English major doesn't know where her pancreas is or what it does. :rolleyes:

 

Sometimes it seems to me like the aim of a classical education is to produce politicians and lawyers. Oh yah, it was, originally, wasn't LOL?

:lol:

 

Jackie

[Nan in Mass]

Now see what you did? Don't you know you have to be careful what you wish for? : )

But seriously, would any of us change our cloud children? I certainly wouldn't. I worry about him, but I woudn't change him. And I am not unhappy that my youngest is turning out to be a bit more cloudy than anticipated.

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

I think you just have to persuade them, not pin them. Not as easy, perhaps, but much more satisfactory in the end.

[elegantlion]

Elegantlion, I think a better question is "Do we want to catch a cloud and pin it down?"

 

No, I'm enjoying my cloud as is. :D Maria didn't stay at the abbey either did she.

 

Paula, you'll be horrified (or find it ironic) that I used to sing that song to my dd when changing her diaper (inserting her name of course). Too funny, eh? :)

 

:lol::lol: My son didn't want me to singing it him while we were making dinner tonight.

 

 

Perhaps my son was fated to be a cloud child. In his room as a toddler we painted the ceiling sky blue and added white fluffy clouds. A painted palm tree was behind his bed. We're getting ready to move, I believe our next classroom will have a sky blue ceiling with big white fluffy clouds. I could use the visual reminder. :D