proselytizing and free speech?

[Scarlett]

It has to do with money, of course, but not just money. What you're talking about is the difference between money and class. Elvis and Britney Spears, for example, possess (or possessed) a great deal of the former, but little of the latter. Elvis' expensive "jungle room" at Graceland is a good example of this apparent contradiction.

 

Of course, in America, it's not nice to point out that there are very clear differences between social classes and that money is only part of the equation.

 

And for the record, people are not trash.

 

They can certainly live like trashy people. But point taken that the phrase 'white trash' does indeed call a person trash.

 

You are a better person than me if you have never thought some person was living in a disgusting, trashy way. Or maybe I've seen more of it than you. Shrug.

[Scarlett]

It has to do with money, of course, but not just money. What you're talking about is the difference between money and class. Elvis and Britney Spears, for example, possess (or possessed) a great deal of the former, but little of the latter. Elvis' expensive "jungle room" at Graceland is a good example of this apparent contradiction.

 

Of course, in America, it's not nice to point out that there are very clear differences between social classes and that money is only part of the equation.

 

And for the record, people are not trash.

 

I am a little sensitive to discussing 'class' since my now X-MIL told me from the time I was 16 that I was not 'good enough' for their family. She actually said, 'you are socially, financially, culturally beneath us.' Took me MANY years to realize that no person who would SAY that to a 16 year old girl actually posseses ANY class of substance.

[Rosie_0801]

I am a little sensitive to discussing 'class' since my now X-MIL told me from the time I was 16 that I was not 'good enough' for their family. She actually said, 'you are socially, financially, culturally beneath us.' Took me MANY years to realize that no person who would SAY that to a 16 year old girl actually posseses ANY class of substance.

 

Ouch. Your story trumps mine. You have to wonder what is wrong with people sometimes, though I assume after such a long acquaintance you know exactly what is wrong with her :lol:

 

I find class a very interesting idea, because it is so multifaceted and we are all pretend so hard about it. Well, those who have manners do, anyway. Dh has some very upper middle class ideas, but lower middle wages (darn ;) ) I'd love to read more about the concept, but I'm not sure what culturally relevant stuff is out there. It's so weird it tickles me. Every few months I have to ask dh to explain it all to me again because it just won't stick in my brain.

 

Rosie

[asta]

Ouch. Your story trumps mine. You have to wonder what is wrong with people sometimes, though I assume after such a long acquaintance you know exactly what is wrong with her :lol:

 

I find class a very interesting idea, because it is so multifaceted and we are all pretend so hard about it. Well, those who have manners do, anyway. Dh has some very upper middle class ideas, but lower middle wages (darn ;) ) I'd love to read more about the concept, but I'm not sure what culturally relevant stuff is out there. It's so weird it tickles me. Every few months I have to ask dh to explain it all to me again because it just won't stick in my brain.

 

Rosie

 

Maybe this will help.

 

Or maybe it will make it worse. I think weird.

 

 

asta

[Charles Wallace]

They can certainly live like trashy people. But point taken that the phrase 'white trash' does indeed call a person trash.

 

You are a better person than me if you have never thought some person was living in a disgusting, trashy way. Or maybe I've seen more of it than you. Shrug.

 

I've seen plenty, but thank you for your inquiry.

[Charles Wallace]

I am a little sensitive to discussing 'class' since my now X-MIL told me from the time I was 16 that I was not 'good enough' for their family. She actually said, 'you are socially, financially, culturally beneath us.' Took me MANY years to realize that no person who would SAY that to a 16 year old girl actually posseses ANY class of substance.

 

Without further data, I can't say for certain, but that bit of information would tend to indicate that she came from a lower middle-class background and acquired money and/or married into a higher class later in life and is sensitive about being "outed" as a member of a lower class than she presents herself to be. The ones most sensitive about class tend to be the middle class.

[Scarlett]

I've seen plenty, but thank you for your inquiry.

 

:001_huh:

[weaver_67579]

 

I get it that white married people with kids are the norm and we happen to fit into it, but it makes me wonder about the people who do NOT fit into it and how they feel/are perceived. I just don't live their lives and when I DO experience any feelings of hostility from another group I recognize that it is likely a response to such hatred from people from MY group, not from ME, of course, but from people who look like me and it makes me feel bad for that marginalized group.

 

:grouphug:

 

to treat people in that way-even if someone like them treated you that way. I do not make allowances for that. I live in the here and now and am dealing with you and not your ancestors or former life. I am not responsible for whatever wrongs the people have lived or their ancestors did-do not treat me as if I am. If you want to be treated nicely and fairly by me-act that way and don't blame me for all your ills and treat me badly.

 

Yes I am white and have had racist comments and even a threatened beating pointed at me. It was at college when I was dating a rather dark Puerto Rican guy. A black girl from down the hall in my dorm threatened to mess me up for not dating my own kind. Oh she got kicked out of school-likely because I was not the only person she spewed her hate at. She is the single most racist person I have ever met. I do not feel sorry she was kicked out or that she may have had a bad life up till then. She was responsible for her own actions and deserved the consequences she recieved for them.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

to treat people in that way-even if someone like them treated you that way. I do not make allowances for that. I live in the here and now and am dealing with you and not your ancestors or former life. I am not responsible for whatever wrongs the people have lived or their ancestors did-do not treat me as if I am. If you want to be treated nicely and fairly by me-act that way and don't blame me for all your ills and treat me badly.

 

I didn't say it was an EXCUSE. It is a REASON. It is compassion and empathy to be able to put yourself in another's shoes and say, "that must have been a horrible experience". Perhaps reading "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" would help, but I just know that I don't walk into a room and have people ASSUME that I'm there to steal something.

 

I live in a world of privilege, just because I happen to be born a certain colour. That IS NOT RIGHT AT ALL and I recognize it.

 

I don't EXCUSE bad behaviour. I am only saying that I understand what may have caused it.

[kiana]

I am a little sensitive to discussing 'class' since my now X-MIL told me from the time I was 16 that I was not 'good enough' for their family. She actually said, 'you are socially, financially, culturally beneath us.' Took me MANY years to realize that no person who would SAY that to a 16 year old girl actually posseses ANY class of substance.

 

Paternal grandmother did the same thing to my mother. Took her a while to realize the same thing as you.

 

Turned out she'd clawed herself out of poverty and married an eligible bachelor of a 'good family', and never lost an opportunity to give others the treatment that she'd gotten from his family.

[Scarlett]

Paternal grandmother did the same thing to my mother. Took her a while to realize the same thing as you.

 

Turned out she'd clawed herself out of poverty and married an eligible bachelor of a 'good family', and never lost an opportunity to give others the treatment that she'd gotten from his family.

 

Projection....Another of the things my XMIL used to harp on was good genes (she once told XH 'don't marry that O'Hara girl because she has bad jeans' hee hee)....not shocking to me at all was when I looked her up on the 1930 census record and discovered she was adopted. When she was called on it she claimed that her dad, a married man, had gotten a nurse (of good breeding---seriously she said that) pregnant and the nurse wanted him to raise the baby (MIL)...

 

She also used to accuse me of being a um....*lut....so again I wasn't surprised to discover she was pregnant when she married XH's father.

 

When the things people spout off don't sound right....there is usually some history.

[OnTheBrink]

With all due respect, SolaMichella, you should not. Nor should I. Nor should the person sitting next to you. Just as you have the right (should you choose to) to express your hatred for [insert appropriate person or group], so too do I (or you or anyone) have the right to define their speech as hateful and hate the hater.

 

Should hate speech be outlawed? Well, I need some help here: Unless someone who is far more informed on this subject than I can clear this up, I believe hate speech is legal and it has been supported by the Supreme Court and ACLU when efforts to limit or proscribe certain expressions as "hate speech" have been proposed on, for example, college campuses.

 

Actions that can or do occur because of hate speech are already covered under the law. If I slander you in my hateful speech, this is slander. If I encourage a crowd to target or assault those of [insert group here], that's inciting to riot --among other offenses. Simply saying, "[insert group here] is objectionable in XYZ ways" is legal and protected.

 

So hate away in perfect peace. The only thing I'd say is that you have to deal with the consequences -- as do we all.

 

With all due respect, you're proving my point precisely. You're making the jump from "disagree" to "hate". I disagree with abortion. I don't hate people who have abortions. Actually, I have compassion on them. Do I like what they did? No. Will I shoot them, ridicule, protest against, or shake a Bible at them? No. Do you get that? Do you see the difference?

 

Let me give another example. I disagree with homosexuality. Yet, that doesn't mean I hate homosexuals. My daughter's father is one. I deal with him almost daily. Do I agree with his lifestyle choice? No. Do I hate him? No. Can you see the difference?

 

If people would stop "Oh, you don't like my choices, you're a HATER!" and maybe realize that "disagree with, don't believe in, feel is wrong" doesn't in any way mean there is hatred or malice or ill-will against that person.

 

The day we have laws against DISAGREEING with something is a sad day, indeed, for humanity. Because the day we have laws against being individuals, being able to stand for what they believe is the day we are no longer free human beings. So, CW, I disagree with you. But that doesn't mean I hate you.

[Scarlett]

With all due respect, you're proving my point precisely. You're making the jump from "disagree" to "hate". I disagree with abortion. I don't hate people who have abortions. Actually, I have compassion on them. Do I like what they did? No. Will I shoot them, ridicule, protest against, or shake a Bible at them? No. Do you get that? Do you see the difference?

 

Let me give another example. I disagree with homosexuality. Yet, that doesn't mean I hate homosexuals. My daughter's father is one. I deal with him almost daily. Do I agree with his lifestyle choice? No. Do I hate him? No. Can you see the difference?

 

If people would stop "Oh, you don't like my choices, you're a HATER!" and maybe realize that "disagree with, don't believe in, feel is wrong" doesn't in any way mean there is hatred or malice or ill-will against that person.

 

The day we have laws against DISAGREEING with something is a sad day, indeed, for humanity. Because the day we have laws against being individuals, being able to stand for what they believe is the day we are no longer free human beings. So, CW, I disagree with you. But that doesn't mean I hate you.

 

Great post SolaMichella...

[PineFarmMom]

With all due respect, you're proving my point precisely. You're making the jump from "disagree" to "hate". I disagree with abortion. I don't hate people who have abortions. Actually, I have compassion on them. Do I like what they did? No. Will I shoot them, ridicule, protest against, or shake a Bible at them? No. Do you get that? Do you see the difference?

 

Let me give another example. I disagree with homosexuality. Yet, that doesn't mean I hate homosexuals. My daughter's father is one. I deal with him almost daily. Do I agree with his lifestyle choice? No. Do I hate him? No. Can you see the difference?

 

If people would stop "Oh, you don't like my choices, you're a HATER!" and maybe realize that "disagree with, don't believe in, feel is wrong" doesn't in any way mean there is hatred or malice or ill-will against that person.

 

The day we have laws against DISAGREEING with something is a sad day, indeed, for humanity. Because the day we have laws against being individuals, being able to stand for what they believe is the day we are no longer free human beings. So, CW, I disagree with you. But that doesn't mean I hate you.

 

:hurray: Perfection!

[Harriet Vane]

With all due respect, you're proving my point precisely. You're making the jump from "disagree" to "hate". I disagree with abortion. I don't hate people who have abortions. Actually, I have compassion on them. Do I like what they did? No. Will I shoot them, ridicule, protest against, or shake a Bible at them? No. Do you get that? Do you see the difference?

 

Let me give another example. I disagree with homosexuality. Yet, that doesn't mean I hate homosexuals. My daughter's father is one. I deal with him almost daily. Do I agree with his lifestyle choice? No. Do I hate him? No. Can you see the difference?

 

If people would stop "Oh, you don't like my choices, you're a HATER!" and maybe realize that "disagree with, don't believe in, feel is wrong" doesn't in any way mean there is hatred or malice or ill-will against that person.

 

The day we have laws against DISAGREEING with something is a sad day, indeed, for humanity. Because the day we have laws against being individuals, being able to stand for what they believe is the day we are no longer free human beings. So, CW, I disagree with you. But that doesn't mean I hate you.

 

:iagree: