Types of math programs (specifically middle school)

[Night Elf]

Because of my current difficulty in choosing a math, and other people asking math questions, I am wondering if someone can point the way, or explain, the different approaches to math. I know there is spiral and mastery. Is incremental the same as spiral?

 

Saxon is spiral I think? What other programs are spiral?

 

What programs are mastery? I think MUS is mastery. What other programs?

 

I'm about to chuck math out the window and make pie. Not Pi, but PIE. I need pie.

[Kristen in NC]

I think incremental would be the same as mastery. You've picked what I think are the best examples of spiral and mastery programs. Others lean one way, but are a little more in between. Singapore is considered mastery, but is less so than MUS.

 

I find this page very helpful.

 

http://www.homeschoolmath.net/curriculum_reviews/index.php

[johnandtinagilbert]

I can't say for certain, but here's how I see spiral and mastery.

 

Mastery focuses on one skill deeply, with a little daily review of previously covered topics. For example, text book practice that coordinates with WB practice on one subject, with reviews interjected after spending time building on a skill. Their review is more built in as your student grows. Fractions leads to finding common denominators, leads to reducing fractions..you practice that for 5 days, then you have a review that covers previous topics and all you've learned about fractions.

 

Other programs will introduce a new skill and over a handful of problems on the new skill, along with many problems that touch on totally different skills. Say, you're learning fractions, so you have 8 problems in the assignment, but there are also 4each of problems about division, time, long addition and money.

 

I think there's something to be said about some children being better at one than others, but I also think the program matters. Although Singapore has review, it does lean mastery approach. So does MUS. We did much better with Singapore. Can't say why, it just worked out that way.

 

Now, for middle school math....I've gone DVD Not that I can't teach it, but it takes a lot of time and that doesn't work well for us as a whole. So, I watch DVDs with them so I don't have any study time, yet I am still available to help should problems arise. My old brain is still faster than theirs :) and I don't need practice as much as reminders. I'm D-O-W-N for DVDs....never thought I'd say that....but I am so D-O-W-N...and to quote Justamouse...Word.

[Night Elf]

I'm D-O-W-N for DVDs....never thought I'd say that....but I am so D-O-W-N...and to quote Justamouse...Word.

 

:tongue_smilie: I do understand. That is one of the things I love about MUS. He usually explains things much better than I do. By going with Saxon, I'd be back to teaching totally on my own. I had forgotten that until just now. I'm going to our local homeschool store next week to look at Saxon. I'll have to talk to DH about it some more. :)

[Corraleno]

:tongue_smilie: I do understand. That is one of the things I love about MUS. He usually explains things much better than I do. By going with Saxon, I'd be back to teaching totally on my own. I had forgotten that until just now. I'm going to our local homeschool store next week to look at Saxon. I'll have to talk to DH about it some more. :)

Can I ask why you want to switch from MUS? Would it help to just add to it (more practice, beefier problems, etc) or are your kids just hating it and wanting a change? And if you want to switch, why Saxon? I think of Saxon and MUS as almost polar opposites. :confused:

 

Jackie

[TracyR]

Nope Saxon has CD's and DVD's.

 

DIVE CD

Saxon Teacher

 

DVD's

Teaching Tape Technology and

Art Reed's Home School With Saxon

[TracyR]

Mastery math programs

 

Bob Jones math

Singapore math

Rod and Staff

Math U See

Right Start

Math Mammoth

Miquon

K12's math

Calvert math

 

Spiral/Incremental math programs

Saxon

Christian Light

 

There is also MEP which I'm not sure what catagory that would be placed in. It looks spiral but not.

[nmoira]

There is also MEP which I'm not sure what catagory that would be placed in. It looks spiral but not.

It's a tough one. Most topics are handled discretely in short units: Of these, most are touched upon once a year, but used later in the same year (a la Singapore), while others might be revisited later in the year (which is more or less the definition of a spiral curriculum. However, there are deeper themes covered in MEP which are definitely spiral in nature, in that they are revisited and reinforced throughout the year, for example, inequalities, and pre-algebra type problems of the nature:

3 + ____ < 9 - 1

Mark the possible values on the number line.

Which being in Y1 and become more complex over time.

 

The people at CIMT characterize it as a spiral program, but I'm hesitant to do so, at least in comparison to what we commonly think of as spiral programs. Maybe it's best to say that the basic concepts are mastery, but the higher concepts (for which mastery is developed over a much longer period of time) are spiral.

 

Edited to add:

The middle school (or equivalent) units of MEP would definitely be considered mastery. However, most of the material found in Y7-9 is a reinforcement or a slight extension of Y1-6, and strong students can go right to higher maths.

Edited May 9, 2010 by nmoira

[lovemykids]

Because of my current difficulty in choosing a math, and other people asking math questions, I am wondering if someone can point the way, or explain, the different approaches to math. I know there is spiral and mastery. Is incremental the same as spiral?

 

Saxon is spiral I think? What other programs are spiral?

 

What programs are mastery? I think MUS is mastery. What other programs?

 

I'm about to chuck math out the window and make pie. Not Pi, but PIE. I need pie.

 

You know, I hesitate to even recommend this after the huge debate that was carried out here over the last few days. But seriously, if you want pie, I recommend TT math with LOF. TT and LOF are both mastery. And so easy, and not that I can’t teach math, I love teaching math, especially without curricula. (well, not so sure about teaching algebra- I need a solid review first and I will have to stick with the books) But I have four children and I am working part-time; I am stretched far beyond recognition. TT really helps. I still have to pay attention to what my kids are doing on the program, and sometimes I have to re-explain things, but it cuts down on my teacher time immensely.

Kids enjoy Teaching Textbooks and there isn’t anything wrong with it, other than the fact that it’s running a little behind other programs. (okay, at least a year, or maybe two)

I can’t sound too convincing though, because even though it’s working for my children, I am reconsidering math programs for my oldest. My oldest is not a gifted math student, but she does have a love of science. I am not completely sure that TT is the best program for her or for my math orientated son. I might continue though and rely on LOF for oomph and use a few old high school level algebra texts to help cement understanding.

If you want pie, it does exist. I have it, and we are all getting our fill of it for now, and doing fine. :D

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

You know, I hesitate to even recommend this after the huge debate that was carried out here over the last few days. But seriously, if you want pie, I recommend TT math with LOF. TT and LOF are both mastery. And so easy, and not that I can’t teach math, I love teaching math, especially without curricula. (well, not so sure about teaching algebra- I need a solid review first and I will have to stick with the books) But I have four children and I am working part-time; I am stretched far beyond recognition. TT really helps. I still have to pay attention to what my kids are doing on the program, and sometimes I have to re-explain things, but it cuts down on my teacher time immensely.

 

Kids enjoy Teaching Textbooks and there isn’t anything wrong with it, other than the fact that it’s running a little behind other programs. (okay, at least a year, or maybe two)

 

I can’t sound too convincing though, because even though it’s working for my children, I am reconsidering math programs for my oldest. My oldest is not a gifted math student, but she does have a love of science. I am not completely sure that TT is the best program for her or for my math orientated son. I might continue though and rely on LOF for oomph and use a few old high school level algebra texts to help cement understanding.

 

If you want pie, it does exist. I have it, and we are all getting our fill of it for now, and doing fine. :D

 

I thought I read (either on their website or Cathy Duffy's website) that TT was spiral. I'll have to see if I can find it or if my brain is having a hiccup, LOL.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

This is all I can find on their website. I could swear it used to say "spiral" instead of "review" because that was the reason I didn't consider TT. The description sounds more spiral than mastery to me but I haven't used it.

 

Do you use the review method?

A. Yes we do. This is a proven method for building skill and long-term retention, so each Teaching Textbookâ„¢ uses the review method on every homework assignment. However, one important difference between our approach to the review method and that of other math programs is that our review is less tied to memorization. Instead of mindlessly reviewing rote procedures that have lost their connection to concepts, Teaching Textbooksâ„¢ review concepts as well as rote techniques. This builds skill while reinforcing the meaning of the material to the student. At the end of the course, the student will have problem-solving abilities as well as understanding.

Another difference between our approach to review and that of other math programs is that our assignments are not overly long, which means that slow students won’t get “bogged down†and bright student won't get bored.

 

 

 

[lovemykids]

This is all I can find on their website. I could swear it used to say "spiral" instead of "review" because that was the reason I didn't consider TT. The description sounds more spiral than mastery to me but I haven't used it.

 

I think it has more of a mastery format but the review makes it seem like spiral at times. LOL. If you find the definitive answer, let me know. I would say mastery. :D

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I think it has more of a mastery format but the review makes it seem like spiral at times. LOL. If you find the definitive answer, let me know. I would say mastery. :D

 

I did a search on here and found several posts that describe TT as spiral but couldn't find anything official so I emailed TT. I'll let you know what they say:001_smile:

[lovemykids]

I did a search on here and found several posts that describe TT as spiral but couldn't find anything official so I emailed TT. I'll let you know what they say:001_smile:

 

I was just coming back to let you know that I was planning on calling them. I am wondering now... but you can have review with a mastery program, and that might make it seem like spiral. You will save me a call.

 

:grouphug:

 

While we are on the topic, does any one know what OM math is? Mastery? I have some of the lower levels and I would say that it is.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

I was just coming back to let you know that I was planning on calling them. I am wondering now... but you can have review with a mastery program, and that might make it seem like spiral. You will save me a call.

 

:grouphug:

 

While we are on the topic, does any one know what OM math is? Mastery? I have some of the lower levels and I would say that it is.

 

I know you can review with a mastery program; the mastery program we use does. As much as I prefer master to spiral I wouldn't use a mastery program if it didn't have review. I just have it in my head that what I quoted used to say spiral instead of mastery because that's why I checked TT off my list of possibilities. Cathy Duffy was even less helpful because she described it as "traditional":lol: I'll let you know what they tell me if they respond.

 

What is OM?

[siloam]

Because of my current difficulty in choosing a math, and other people asking math questions, I am wondering if someone can point the way, or explain, the different approaches to math. I know there is spiral and mastery. Is incremental the same as spiral?

 

Saxon is spiral I think? What other programs are spiral?

 

What programs are mastery? I think MUS is mastery. What other programs?

 

I'm about to chuck math out the window and make pie. Not Pi, but PIE. I need pie.

 

The best example I can give of spiral is Horizons. You can have multiple concepts on one page. Strips my gears. :D Right Start is Mastery, it cover addition up to 9 digits, then are introduced to subtraction and multiplication as addition in level B. Level C covers subtraction and addition and introduces division by grouping. Level D focuses a lot on applying the math learned to measurements and level E covers fractions, percents, and division. It does have review sections in level C and up, in addition when a new concept is introduced, they usually go back and review any related ideas. Singapore is a little of both. In level 1 you will cover (if I remember right) single digit addition and subtraction and multiplication by addition. In level 2 you cover double digit addition and subtraction, multiplication and beginning division. In level 3 you cover 3 digit addition and subtraction, ect...

 

Now back to middle school, Video Text is mastery, and so is Singapore (New Elementary Math and Discovering Mathematics). Most of the Algebra 1 texts I own (Lial, Forester, Jacobs, Key Press Discovering Math, 1975 Dolcani) look to be somewhat mastery based. I haven't looked to see if they spiral related topics or work them in blocks together. They at least master the concept at hand, then have review sections. You won't find any texts (to my knowledge) that have multiple concepts on one page at this level.

 

Heather

 

 

 

[lovemykids]

I know you can review with a mastery program; the mastery program we use does. As much as I prefer master to spiral I wouldn't use a mastery program if it didn't have review. I just have it in my head that what I quoted used to say spiral instead of mastery because that's why I checked TT off my list of possibilities. Cathy Duffy was even less helpful because she described it as "traditional":lol: I'll let you know what they tell me if they respond.

 

What is OM?

 

LOL. I am sure that you know. I didn’t mean to come across as belittling at all. I guess what I was trying to say is that the way TT is set up with the review, it does make it seem more like a spiral program than other programs. Sorry, I am beat and just not explaining myself well lately. I need a good night of sleep or ten. ;)

OM is Oak Meadow.

[Night Elf]

Can I ask why you want to switch from MUS? Would it help to just add to it (more practice, beefier problems, etc) or are your kids just hating it and wanting a change? And if you want to switch, why Saxon? I think of Saxon and MUS as almost polar opposites. :confused:

 

Jackie

 

I think polar opposites is what I need right now. Not consecutively, my dd has used Gamma through Zeta, all successfully. She finished Zeta earlier this year, maybe late February, early March. I can't remember exactly. We moved her directly into MUS pre-Algebra because she loves the program and has done so well with it.

 

Well, the first 4 lessons are on integers: adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing integers. It took her some time to get through those but she seemed to understand finally and so we went on. By the time we got to lesson 11, she was having slight difficulty with those integers again. So we went back and reviewed the first 4 lessons. We returned to where we left off, got to lesson 15 and she is still having problems with those integers. She's fine in the lessons that don't have her using integers, i.e. converting Celsius to Fahrenheit, calculating surface area, and absolute value. It's when she gets into the review pages and goes back to those integers, especially the really long equations. So really, I don't think it's MUS, it's the concept that her brain is just not ready to understand. We've reviewed those integer lessons 2 times now. Going over the same lessons is not helping. She is feeling stupid because she can't understand.

 

We've reviewed those integer lessons twice and did the first Key to Algebra book which is all integer operations. We've also tried all the little tricks that people here have suggested. She mostly gets it, but there are too many times when she gets the wrong sign and gets so frustrated. It's caused tears. It's time to move to something else.

 

Editing to clarify:

 

Teaching Textbooks - 3 years ago, she placed too high in the program. She was fine about 1/4th of the way through and then hit a wall. The problems were just plain too difficult. I backed her up in another program because I don't recall there being the earlier TT grade levels.

 

Life of Fred - my ds13 enjoyed those until he was halfway through Algebra. He found the explanations too difficult. We had to move him to Keystone anyway, and he's been doing fine using a traditional textbook. Dd12 tried the first LoF but hated the storyline. She said it was too distracting.

 

K12 - She used their 5th grade math program and it was great. Ds used it too. But when ds got into pre-Algebra, we had a really difficult time understanding the textbook they use. It was so bad that I plain refused to even try it when dd was ready for pre-Algebra.

 

MUS - great until pre-Algebra that extensively uses integers. Well, it IS pre-algebra. :)

 

Singapore - she did fine in the lower levels, but by 5A and 5B, she didn't like it. The layout was strange for her and the word problems distracting.

 

She seems too advanced for basic math, and not ready for pre-Algebra. I haven't had this much difficulty in choosing a curriculum in a long time.

 

She is really unhappy about leaving MUS but she's also unhappy about opening her workbook every day and crying.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Night Elf

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

LOL. I am sure that you know. I didn’t mean to come across as belittling at all. I guess what I was trying to say is that the way TT is set up with the review, it does make it seem more like a spiral program than other programs. Sorry, I am beat and just not explaining myself well lately. I need a good night of sleep or ten. ;)

 

OM is Oak Meadow.

I didn't think you were belittling anything:001_smile: Sleep, what is that;):lol: Some people thing mastery = no review, which isn't true (at least not for all mastery programs).

 

Thanks, I've never heard of OM.

[Corraleno]

I think polar opposites is what I need right now. Not consecutively, my dd has used Gamma through Zeta, all successfully. She finished Zeta earlier this year, maybe late February, early March. I can't remember exactly. We moved her directly into MUS pre-Algebra because she loves the program and has done so well with it.

 

Well, the first 4 lessons are on integers: adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing integers. It took her some time to get through those but she seemed to understand finally and so we went on. By the time we got to lesson 11, she was having slight difficulty with those integers again. So we went back and reviewed the first 4 lessons. We returned to where we left off, got to lesson 15 and she is still having problems with those integers. She's fine in the lessons that don't have her using integers, i.e. converting Celsius to Fahrenheit, calculating surface area, and absolute value. It's when she gets into the review pages and goes back to those integers, especially the really long equations. So really, I don't think it's MUS, it's the concept that her brain is just not ready to understand. We've reviewed those integer lessons 2 times now. Going over the same lessons is not helping. She is feeling stupid because she can't understand.

 

She is really unhappy about leaving MUS but she's also unhappy about opening her workbook every day and crying.

 

I wouldn't dump MUS just because she's struggling with this one concept. Lots of kids seem to get a mental block about a particular concept (place value, borrowing/carrying, long division, etc.), and you just need to plug away at it until they get over the hump and can move on. I think that's pretty normal, not a sign that the program is suddenly not working.

 

Here are some videos on integers that might help her. I would either just focus on this one topic, looking at it from as many different perspectives as you can until she gets it, or continue with MUS and skip the review problems with negative numbers for a couple of weeks, then review the concept and see it makes more sense to her. Either way, if she loves MUS and it's always worked well for her, I would definitely not switch.

 

Jackie

[Night Elf]

I wouldn't dump MUS just because she's struggling with this one concept. Lots of kids seem to get a mental block about a particular concept (place value, borrowing/carrying, long division, etc.), and you just need to plug away at it until they get over the hump and can move on. I think that's pretty normal, not a sign that the program is suddenly not working.

 

Thanks, I agree. I did say it wasn't the program. It is the concept. However, it is so pervasive that there isn't a way around it. I don't believe plugging away at a single concept is good for *this* child. I've been homeschooling her for 9 years. I've seen her hit walls before. Some we can work through, but it doesn't take more than a month which is what we've done on this concept. Some just need a break, like 4 or 5 months, and then she comes back to it and takes to it very easily. Neither of us want to leave the program, but we've literally done every problem they give in the book, many of them twice, and quite a lot of them 3 times. There are only so many times you can repeat the same problems and same concept without the child totally breaking down.

 

I would either just focus on this one topic, looking at it from as many different perspectives as you can until she gets it, or continue with MUS and skip the review problems with negative numbers for a couple of weeks, then review the concept and see it makes more sense to her. Either way, if she loves MUS and it's always worked well for her, I would definitely not switch. Jackie

 

Thank you Jackie, but again, I've tried explaining this concept numerous times and ways. I've tried number lines, big and small, using manipulatives, standing on a floor number line, vertical number line like a thermometer, money and of course the MUS blocks. Some of those she gets when she's actually doing them, but put her on a worksheet with a problem like

 

7 - B + 4 + 2B = 2B + 8 - 7 or worse yet,

 

7^2 - 11^2 + 4(Y + 3) = -3Y + 2(1.5) where the ^ indicates a power because I don't know how to do exponents in this message,

 

and she gets the answer wrong every single time. If I watch her and correct her while she does the problem, she will argue for what she is doing and that my way doesn't sound right. Her reasoning is perfectly logical to her, but it's absolutely incorrect. Sometimes it's backwards. She'll even argue that 5 - 8 cannot possibly be five plus negative eight, because a minus 8 is not the same thing as a negative 8. I showed her how to change the sign to a plus and make the 8 negative, but she doesn't understand how you can just change a sign. Even with the number line, it seems too abstract of a concept for her to grasp right now. It's just really too hard.

 

Hence my dilemma. We have gone into the next lessons to give her new material, but the negative numbers are in the review. And then they can work the negative numbers into the problems, which make total sense because of the level of math it is.

 

|-(2)^2 - 4| = -7R + (-2)^2 - 2 + 5R was the last problem we attempted on Thursday. After 20 minutes on that one problem, even I was getting a headache. :)

 

And then there is the matter than 11 lessons from now, the level ends. I would be a fool to put her into MUS Algebra if she doesn't have a grasp of integers. I'm doing Algebra 1 with my son, using an accredited program, and there is no way she is ready for this level of math. So I'd be moving her to a new program at that point anyway. If we skip all the problems with integers, she'll finish the program in less than 2 weeks. She needs a new program that will let her continue practicing on her math level while giving her time to be ready to approach those integers again.

[Corraleno]

If we skip all the problems with integers, she'll finish the program in less than 2 weeks. She needs a new program that will let her continue practicing on her math level while giving her time to be ready to approach those integers again.

Ahhh, OK, I see what you mean. So you're looking for something she can do that won't just review basic math but won't really get into algebra yet, and won't have negative numbers, that she can use until "the penny drops" regarding integers and she's ready for MUS algebra? Hmmm....what about something like Challenge Math, or Singapore CWP, or something like that? Something that would focus on thinking skills and deconstructing word problems, instead of just reviewing fractions and decimals again? Focusing on thinking skills and logic might actually indirectly help with the integer problem, KWIM?

 

You have my sympathy ~ that's a tough spot you're in! :grouphug:

 

Jackie

[8filltheheart]

Thanks, I agree. I did say it wasn't the program. It is the concept. However, it is so pervasive that there isn't a way around it. I don't believe plugging away at a single concept is good for *this* child. I've been homeschooling her for 9 years. I've seen her hit walls before. Some we can work through, but it doesn't take more than a month which is what we've done on this concept. Some just need a break, like 4 or 5 months, and then she comes back to it and takes to it very easily. Neither of us want to leave the program, but we've literally done every problem they give in the book, many of them twice, and quite a lot of them 3 times. There are only so many times you can repeat the same problems and same concept without the child totally breaking down.

 

 

 

Thank you Jackie, but again, I've tried explaining this concept numerous times and ways. I've tried number lines, big and small, using manipulatives, standing on a floor number line, vertical number line like a thermometer, money and of course the MUS blocks. Some of those she gets when she's actually doing them, but put her on a worksheet with a problem like

 

7 - B + 4 + 2B = 2B + 8 - 7 or worse yet,

 

7^2 - 11^2 + 4(Y + 3) = -3Y + 2(1.5) where the ^ indicates a power because I don't know how to do exponents in this message,

 

and she gets the answer wrong every single time. If I watch her and correct her while she does the problem, she will argue for what she is doing and that my way doesn't sound right. Her reasoning is perfectly logical to her, but it's absolutely incorrect. Sometimes it's backwards. She'll even argue that 5 - 8 cannot possibly be five plus negative eight, because a minus 8 is not the same thing as a negative 8. I showed her how to change the sign to a plus and make the 8 negative, but she doesn't understand how you can just change a sign. Even with the number line, it seems too abstract of a concept for her to grasp right now. It's just really too hard.

 

Hence my dilemma. We have gone into the next lessons to give her new material, but the negative numbers are in the review. And then they can work the negative numbers into the problems, which make total sense because of the level of math it is.

 

|-(2)^2 - 4| = -7R + (-2)^2 - 2 + 5R was the last problem we attempted on Thursday. After 20 minutes on that one problem, even I was getting a headache. :)

 

And then there is the matter than 11 lessons from now, the level ends. I would be a fool to put her into MUS Algebra if she doesn't have a grasp of integers. I'm doing Algebra 1 with my son, using an accredited program, and there is no way she is ready for this level of math. So I'd be moving her to a new program at that point anyway. If we skip all the problems with integers, she'll finish the program in less than 2 weeks. She needs a new program that will let her continue practicing on her math level while giving her time to be ready to approach those integers again.

 

I am trying to understand what she is struggling with. Integers are simply all whole numbers on the number line, so saying she is having problems with integers really is unclear. 2+2 would be working with integers.

 

Based on this post, I am surmising she doesn't understand order of operations and negatives? Would that be correct? It also sounds like she hasn't mastered the associative and commutative properties as well as the others such as distributive?

 

Is she very concrete oriented? Perhaps working through the basic properties and gradually working forward would help. Maybe she could form a chart she could post in front of her as she masters a concept.

 

From the simple example you posted:

7 - B + 4 + 2B = 2B + 8 - 7

 

Does she understand that by the commutative property she can rearrange the order to

 

2B-B+7+4=2B+8-7

 

It sounds to me like she hasn't mastered the basic properties and until she has, working with variables is probably too big of a step. I bet she is familiar with them w/o variables.....

 

2+3=3+2

 

Perhaps instead of working with any specific text, you could pick one property at a time to master making it more and more complicated so that she understands what she is doing and why she can. So for the above problem, start with the simple addition, and gradually work through problems until the one she couldn't solve.

 

I am just wondering if there is going to be a simple textbook solution or if going through them one by one might not serve her better and cement the concepts better.

[Night Elf]

Ahhh, OK, I see what you mean. So you're looking for something she can do that won't just review basic math but won't really get into algebra yet, and won't have negative numbers, that she can use until "the penny drops" regarding integers and she's ready for MUS algebra? Hmmm....what about something like Challenge Math, or Singapore CWP, or something like that? Something that would focus on thinking skills and deconstructing word problems, instead of just reviewing fractions and decimals again? Focusing on thinking skills and logic might actually indirectly help with the integer problem, KWIM?

 

You have my sympathy ~ that's a tough spot you're in! :grouphug:

 

Jackie

 

Exactly. It sounds like the impossible. The only thing I can see doing is just putting her back into a 5th or 6th grade textbook and letting her work her way through again. Using MUS is weird because there aren't grade levels. I thought I read somewhere that if you go through Zeta, it's like going through 6th grade, because it's usually 7th grade math that is pre-Algebra. So what do we do with students who get caught between Zeta and pre-Algebra? :)

[johnandtinagilbert]

I think polar opposites is what I need right now. Not consecutively, my dd has used Gamma through Zeta, all successfully. She finished Zeta earlier this year, maybe late February, early March. I can't remember exactly. We moved her directly into MUS pre-Algebra because she loves the program and has done so well with it.

 

Well, the first 4 lessons are on integers: adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing integers. It took her some time to get through those but she seemed to understand finally and so we went on. By the time we got to lesson 11, she was having slight difficulty with those integers again. So we went back and reviewed the first 4 lessons. We returned to where we left off, got to lesson 15 and she is still having problems with those integers. She's fine in the lessons that don't have her using integers, i.e. converting Celsius to Fahrenheit, calculating surface area, and absolute value. It's when she gets into the review pages and goes back to those integers, especially the really long equations. So really, I don't think it's MUS, it's the concept that her brain is just not ready to understand. We've reviewed those integer lessons 2 times now. Going over the same lessons is not helping. She is feeling stupid because she can't understand.

 

We've reviewed those integer lessons twice and did the first Key to Algebra book which is all integer operations. We've also tried all the little tricks that people here have suggested. She mostly gets it, but there are too many times when she gets the wrong sign and gets so frustrated. It's caused tears. It's time to move to something else.

 

Editing to clarify:

 

Teaching Textbooks - 3 years ago, she placed too high in the program. She was fine about 1/4th of the way through and then hit a wall. The problems were just plain too difficult. I backed her up in another program because I don't recall there being the earlier TT grade levels.

 

Life of Fred - my ds13 enjoyed those until he was halfway through Algebra. He found the explanations too difficult. We had to move him to Keystone anyway, and he's been doing fine using a traditional textbook. Dd12 tried the first LoF but hated the storyline. She said it was too distracting.

 

K12 - She used their 5th grade math program and it was great. Ds used it too. But when ds got into pre-Algebra, we had a really difficult time understanding the textbook they use. It was so bad that I plain refused to even try it when dd was ready for pre-Algebra.

 

MUS - great until pre-Algebra that extensively uses integers. Well, it IS pre-algebra. :)

 

Singapore - she did fine in the lower levels, but by 5A and 5B, she didn't like it. The layout was strange for her and the word problems distracting.

 

She seems too advanced for basic math, and not ready for pre-Algebra. I haven't had this much difficulty in choosing a curriculum in a long time.

 

She is really unhappy about leaving MUS but she's also unhappy about opening her workbook every day and crying.

Maybe the Saxon DVDS are what you need. Isn't there some Saxon that is in between arithmetic and algebra?

[Night Elf]

I am trying to understand what she is struggling with. Integers are simply all whole numbers on the number line, so saying she is having problems with integers really is unclear. 2+2 would be working with integers.

 

I'm sorry. I really mean negative numbers. The rules for when to use a positive and negative sign get jumbled in her brain. When she hears Mr. Steve (MUS guy) explain, it seems to make sense, but then can't do it on her own.

 

Based on this post, I am surmising she doesn't understand order of operations and negatives? Would that be correct? It also sounds like she hasn't mastered the associative and commutative properties as well as the others such as distributive?

 

This is one of the things I find confusing. She understands PEMDAS. She does simple problems with commutative, associative, and distributive properties. She can define those properties. But when faced with having to add/subtract/multiply/divide negative numbers, she comes to a standstill.

 

Is she very concrete oriented?

 

Yes. We like MUS because of the visuals.

 

Does she understand that by the commutative property she can rearrange the order to

 

2B-B+7+4=2B+8-7

 

She can do it sometimes. I don't understand why she can't do it every time. And I do think she has an easier time with this type of problem than the other one I posted. Perhaps she just can't handle too many operations in one equation yet. She understands the individual properties, but somehow it's just too much when more than one is put together. Maybe. I can at least say she truly understood every concept in the MUS Zeta level, which is why it never occurred to me that she wouldn't be ready for their pre-Algebra.

 

Perhaps instead of working with any specific text, you could pick one property at a time to master making it more and more complicated so that she understands what she is doing and why she can. So for the above problem, start with the simple addition, and gradually work through problems until the one she couldn't solve.

 

Ah, see this is a problem. Without a text to guide me, I have a really hard time teaching math. I guess I could try if I had a master list that would tell me what to do next. But that is why I use a program.

 

Unfortunately, no one answered my post about trying to compare MUS pre-Algebra to Saxon Algebra 1/2. There were no long equations on the Saxon test that placed her into that level. But the rest she can do.

 

Well, I feel like I've beaten this into the ground. Maybe I'll copy out the equations from MUS so she doesn't realize she's doing the same problems yet again and see if I can separate them for her, to understand them individually within the whole. But that doesn't solve the problem of what to do when we solve this level. I don't think she'll be ready for any algebra 1 program. It makes more sense to repeat pre-Algebra using another program.

[Corraleno]

Exactly. It sounds like the impossible. The only thing I can see doing is just putting her back into a 5th or 6th grade textbook and letting her work her way through again. Using MUS is weird because there aren't grade levels. I thought I read somewhere that if you go through Zeta, it's like going through 6th grade, because it's usually 7th grade math that is pre-Algebra. So what do we do with students who get caught between Zeta and pre-Algebra? :)

 

If you're thinking about doing a 6th grade textbook, you might consider Math Mammoth 6A. It's cheap ($15) and it covers operations & exponents, equations & expressions, ratios, proportion and scaling geometric figures, all operations with decimals, primes and factorization, and fractions. The second half, 6b, will be out by the end of summer and will cover percent, integers, geometry, statistics and probability. Maybe by the time integers are introduced again, she'll have the background so it will click?

 

I think the conceptual explanations in MM are really exceptional, and she walks the student through them step-by-step. The problem sets are also very very good, and usually include a variety of problems so students "see" the concept from many different angles.

 

If you don't want to do a whole grade level, MM has a couple of shorter Blue Series worktexts. One is called The Four Operations With a Touch of Algebra ($6, 107 pages) and the blurb says:

Although the book is named, “The Four Operations,” please notice that the idea is not to practice each of the four operations separately, but rather to see how they are used together in solving problems and in simple equations. We are trying to develop student's algebraic thinking, including the abilities to: translate problems into mathematical operations, comprehend the many operations needed to yield an answer to a problem, “undo” operations, and so on. Many of the ideas in this chapter are preparing them for algebra in advance.

 

There is another one on Ratios, Proportions, and Problem-Solving ($4 for 73 pages) that covers "Ratios, proportions, scaling geometric figures, floor plans, solving problems using the bar (block) model."

 

Jackie

[8filltheheart]

If you don't want to do a whole grade level, MM has a couple of shorter Blue Series worktexts. One is called The Four Operations With a Touch of Algebra ($6, 107 pages) and the blurb says:

 

 

Although the book is named, “The Four Operations,†please notice that the idea is not to practice each of the four operations separately, but rather to see how they are used together in solving problems and in simple equations. We are trying to develop student's algebraic thinking, including the abilities to: translate problems into mathematical operations, comprehend the many operations needed to yield an answer to a problem, “undo†operations, and so on. Many of the ideas in this chapter are preparing them for algebra in advance.

 

Jackie

 

That sounds like what I would recommend. It really sounds like she has a disconnect on how to apply operations. Most texts are going to scatter them throughout and over several grade levels. It sounds like it addresses exactly she needds.

Edited May 9, 2010 by 8FillTheHeart

[TracyR]

Maybe the Saxon DVDS are what you need. Isn't there some Saxon that is in between arithmetic and algebra?

 

I believe that Saxon would probably be your best bet if she is struggling with the concepts. I would have her take the diagnostic test and then place her from that. I also listed the Saxon CD's and DVD's that are available.

There are the DIVE CD's the Saxon Teacher Cd's, Teaching Tape Technology DVD's and Art Reeds Homeschooling with Saxon DVD's.

[Lolly]

Are you taking a break for summer? If so, I recommend dropping the math. Come back to it fresh in the fall. it is amazing how much a kid can mature over the summer. I would then proceed with a pre-alg. program. If you think she might have difficulty with MUS (leftover mental baggage from this year), I would try a different publisher. That would only be because I wouldn't want her going into it expecting to not be able to work the problems.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

LOL. I am sure that you know. I didn’t mean to come across as belittling at all. I guess what I was trying to say is that the way TT is set up with the review, it does make it seem more like a spiral program than other programs. Sorry, I am beat and just not explaining myself well lately. I need a good night of sleep or ten. ;)

 

OM is Oak Meadow.

 

TT just emailed me and said they use a spiral approach to their programs.

[seibert4kids]

Just wanted to chime in and say that we LOVE the MUS program! We've been using it for 5 years and my degree is in Math Education. For our family, this is the BEST math curriculum we've come across!