What kind of child does upper-level Saxon work for and how do you know when it isn't?

[Country Girl]

I'm contemplating a switch to Saxon for my son starting into the upper levels (probably start with 76 or 87) and continuing through Alg 1,2 and Adv. Math. I keep reading that Saxon is great for some but horrible for others. How do you know what type of child you have? What type of child is Saxon a good fit for? What kind of child is Saxon typically a poor fit for? My ds has actually asked to do Saxon based on the samples but I'm trying to speculate whether Saxon would work with his learning style or not (after I figure out what his learning style is:D).

 

Also, if you are using it and it isn't working, how do you know? I've read a few posts on here where families say they thought it was working but found out too late that it wasn't, or that they got in too far before they realized the program was a bad fit. I thought that Saxon was set up so there was constant assessments and if the child scored high (80-90%), then you know they are getting the material.... is this correct??? But it sound like in some of these families, the parents thought the kids were doing well (and I'm assuming that means their test scores were good), but figured out later that they weren't really grasping the material. So, how is Saxon set up differently from other programs that allows a child to score well on the tests but not be understanding the math? If my ds starts Saxon, how will I know if he is doing well? Can I rely on his test scores or do I need to do some type of outside assessment to really know how well he is understanding and internalizing the material?

 

Thanks!

[MamaT]

I have used different curriculum for many subjects based on my dc's differences. Math is not one of them. I know there are a lot of people on here who do not like Saxon, but I have graduaged two, and am schooling four now. I have used Saxon for every one of them all the way through (with the exception of K-3 with my oldest two - it wasn't around yet). My four just took their standardized test, which is required here in NC, and scored way above grade level in math. My oldest two had no difficulty with college math. That's good enough for me.

 

IMO is it an excellent math program.

[TracyR]

Well you'll know if it brings on tears and arguments. LOL. Not once in a while but everyday. That was when I knew a program wasn't working for us. As far as getting to far into Saxon and not knowing that it wasn't working until then, well , I have no idea. The assessments will tell you. Maybe those people weren't using them. I don't know.

 

Saxon works for most kids. Some children balk at the review. That's where the issues lie sometimes. You won't know if it doesn't work unless you try it though. That's just the way it goes.

Out of all of the math programs I've used so far my daughters have most definitely retained more from using Saxon. It just fits their learning style I guess.

 

Saxon teaches concepts a little bit at a time and then builds upon them all the while continually reviewing past concepts. If you have a child that works well with math , gets math well, and balks if you review things then Saxon may not work for them. But as a mom who has learned that review doesn't kill them. Most children do just fine with Saxon.

Also those children who need the bells and whistles (meaning pretty pictures and color) to learn it may not take well to Saxon. My oldest has been my child that feels she needs bells and whistles. So Saxon isn't her favorite. But she wants to attend private school this fall and guess what? They use Saxon so she's just going to have to get over that hump.

[fractalgal]

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Edited May 7, 2010 by fractalgal

[Carol in Cal.]

Algebra 1 is much easier, I think. 87 is so scattered because it has to cover such a tremendous scope of material, and every so often I had to stop and take her through several lessons she had already done to help her pull the material together. All the books up until 87 were great for her--good solid learning, incremental introduction of new material, continuous review of old material (that was CRUCIAL for her).

 

Personally, I learn best through mastery, so I think that Saxon would have driven me crazy. But for DD, who just really doesn't want to have to think about math at all, Saxon forced her to keep remembering what she had learned before, in a way that other programs just don't, and that was crucial.

 

She is not an outstanding math student, but she has a solid grasp of math through pre-algebra, and is doing fine in Algebra 1 right now. The other day she mentioned to me that when she actually understands how to approach math problems, she kind of enjoys them. This is HUGE for her, and I give Saxon all the credit.

[jld]

CountryGirl, this is exactly what I was trying to get at last week on the high school board. How do you know if Saxon is not working, when it surely seems to be working?

 

I hope someone will be able to answer this question. I'm starting to wonder, when people say it's not working, if that means they just don't like it?

 

Really wondering about this here, too. Thanks for bringing it up on this board!

[yslek]

I used Saxon in High School (Algebra II and Advanced Math) and it worked extremely well for my. I barely passed Algebra I and Geometry at my previous school, but got As in math once I started Saxon.

 

For me, even if I master a concept, I will forget it if I don't constantly practice it. The continual review in Saxon was perfect for the way I learn and think. If there was a new type of problem that gave me trouble, it came up in every lesson and eventually I got it. I would think that in order to use Saxon successfully, your student should be able to integrate little bits of information into a big picture. If your child needs to be presented with the big picture, and then have all of the little bits explained/explored, Saxon would probably be a poor match.

 

I hope that makes sense. I should probably be heading to bed rather than responding to messages on a board. :tongue_smilie:

[Country Girl]

I have used different curriculum for many subjects based on my dc's differences. Math is not one of them. I know there are a lot of people on here who do not like Saxon, but I have graduaged two, and am schooling four now. I have used Saxon for every one of them all the way through (with the exception of K-3 with my oldest two - it wasn't around yet). My four just took their standardized test, which is required here in NC, and scored way above grade level in math. My oldest two had no difficulty with college math. That's good enough for me.

 

IMO is it an excellent math program.

 

Thanks for the input. I love hearing from BTDT who have seen the results of their choices. Thanks for sharing.

[Country Girl]

Well you'll know if it brings on tears and arguments. LOL. Not once in a while but everyday. That was when I knew a program wasn't working for us. As far as getting to far into Saxon and not knowing that it wasn't working until then, well , I have no idea. The assessments will tell you. Maybe those people weren't using them. I don't know.

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this. Your comment about the assessments telling me if it is working or not is how I thought the program should work. If we go this route I'm really hoping I can trust the program as designed.

 

 

Saxon works for most kids. Some children balk at the review. That's where the issues lie sometimes. You won't know if it doesn't work unless you try it though. That's just the way it goes.

Out of all of the math programs I've used so far my daughters have most definitely retained more from using Saxon. It just fits their learning style I guess.

 

Saxon teaches concepts a little bit at a time and then builds upon them all the while continually reviewing past concepts. If you have a child that works well with math , gets math well, and balks if you review things then Saxon may not work for them. But as a mom who has learned that review doesn't kill them. Most children do just fine with Saxon.

Also those children who need the bells and whistles (meaning pretty pictures and color) to learn it may not take well to Saxon. My oldest has been my child that feels she needs bells and whistles. So Saxon isn't her favorite. But she wants to attend private school this fall and guess what? They use Saxon so she's just going to have to get over that hump.

 

 

My son does get math easily and sometimes does balk at review, however....... I also see that while he seems to totally grasp a concept while we are on the chapter covering it, he often forgets or blocks out how to do it when he comes across it again. As soon as I give him a quick reminder, he is off and running. So he grasps the concepts of math but when they aren't practiced day to day he often forgets how to do them. That is why I'm thinking more constant review could be good.

[Country Girl]

Algebra 1 is much easier, I think. 87 is so scattered because it has to cover such a tremendous scope of material, and every so often I had to stop and take her through several lessons she had already done to help her pull the material together. All the books up until 87 were great for her--good solid learning, incremental introduction of new material, continuous review of old material (that was CRUCIAL for her).

 

Personally, I learn best through mastery, so I think that Saxon would have driven me crazy. But for DD, who just really doesn't want to have to think about math at all, Saxon forced her to keep remembering what she had learned before, in a way that other programs just don't, and that was crucial.

 

She is not an outstanding math student, but she has a solid grasp of math through pre-algebra, and is doing fine in Algebra 1 right now. The other day she mentioned to me that when she actually understands how to approach math problems, she kind of enjoys them. This is HUGE for her, and I give Saxon all the credit.

 

I think the Saxon method would have driven me crazy too, but I'm the kind of person who likes to eat all of one type of food on my plate first before moving on to the next type of food:lol:.

 

Thanks for the heads up on 87.

[Country Girl]

CountryGirl, this is exactly what I was trying to get at last week on the high school board. How do you know if Saxon is not working, when it surely seems to be working?

 

I hope someone will be able to answer this question. I'm starting to wonder, when people say it's not working, if that means they just don't like it?

 

Really wondering about this here, too. Thanks for bringing it up on this board!

 

Yep, I think I jumped in on your thread over there trying to get a better understanding. However, I'm still trying to wrap my head around this so I thought I'd try to get more feedback.

[Country Girl]

I used Saxon in High School (Algebra II and Advanced Math) and it worked extremely well for my. I barely passed Algebra I and Geometry at my previous school, but got As in math once I started Saxon.

 

For me, even if I master a concept, I will forget it if I don't constantly practice it. The continual review in Saxon was perfect for the way I learn and think. If there was a new type of problem that gave me trouble, it came up in every lesson and eventually I got it. I would think that in order to use Saxon successfully, your student should be able to integrate little bits of information into a big picture. If your child needs to be presented with the big picture, and then have all of the little bits explained/explored, Saxon would probably be a poor match.

 

I hope that makes sense. I should probably be heading to bed rather than responding to messages on a board. :tongue_smilie:

 

Thanks for your input. I think your comment about being able to integrate bits of information to form a big picture versus starting with the big picture is key. However, I'm only starting to realize how I function best in this regard and am still trying to figure out how ds works. I'm thinking he does okay with the small bits and integrating them but I'm not sure, which is why I'm a bit nervous to start with Saxon.

[MIch elle]

It fits for us for one year after using CLE math 5-7. My ds will attending high school and Saxon alg. 1 w/ Art Reed DVDs makes sense for us for grade 8. If I were to teach all of high school, I would continue on with Saxon.

 

My older ds used R&S math, part CD alg.1, then part of Saxon alg. 1 before attending high school. He used the DIVE w/ Saxon and found it to be very easy to use.

[Country Girl]

It fits for us for one year after using CLE math 5-7. My ds will attending high school and Saxon alg. 1 w/ Art Reed DVDs makes sense for us for grade 8. If I were to teach all of high school, I would continue on with Saxon.

 

My older ds used R&S math, part CD alg.1, then part of Saxon alg. 1 before attending high school. He used the DIVE w/ Saxon and found it to be very easy to use.

 

 

Thanks for sharing what is working for you!

 

Thanks!

[cathmom]

I posted on the "Why not Saxon" thread about my children's experiences with Saxon. My oldest is the only one who did upper levels. He did well in 76. He did well in Algebra 1/2. It was only when he got into Algebra 1 and it was higher level stuff that he realized he did not understand what was going on. Saxon teaches just a little bit at a time, so it can seem like you get it. You're supposed to do this, so you do this. You score well. But when it comes time to put it together to do something else, you can't.

 

I won't ever use Saxon with my dc again. My younger ones are using or will use RS, and then switch to MUS. My two current older ones are doing MUS. I like their approach - teach a new lesson, 3 pages of just that lesson, 3 pages of 1/2 that lesson, 1/2 previous concepts. It doesn't let you forget what you learned before, but it actually gives you enough time to understand the lesson you're learning.

[Country Girl]

I posted on the "Why not Saxon" thread about my children's experiences with Saxon. My oldest is the only one who did upper levels. He did well in 76. He did well in Algebra 1/2. It was only when he got into Algebra 1 and it was higher level stuff that he realized he did not understand what was going on. Saxon teaches just a little bit at a time, so it can seem like you get it. You're supposed to do this, so you do this. You score well. But when it comes time to put it together to do something else, you can't.

 

I won't ever use Saxon with my dc again. My younger ones are using or will use RS, and then switch to MUS. My two current older ones are doing MUS. I like their approach - teach a new lesson, 3 pages of just that lesson, 3 pages of 1/2 that lesson, 1/2 previous concepts. It doesn't let you forget what you learned before, but it actually gives you enough time to understand the lesson you're learning.

 

Cathmom- Thanks for your response. I'm still trying to understand how Saxon works so I wonder if you'd mind clarifying things a bit? You mentioned that your ds was doing well in Saxon 87 and 1/2 but hit a problem in Algebra. If I understand your post correctly.... he was scoring well on the tests..... even in Algebra? If so, how were you able to figure out that Saxon wasn't working? I think I remember reading that the tests are set up so that the lesson that each problem pertains to is noted. Is this correct? If so, if a student misses problems on the tests is it possible to just keep track of which types of problems they are missing based on the lesson referenced and review those concepts? Or is there more to it than that?

 

Thanks!

[TracyR]

See it all boils down to how your child learns best. Some children want to only focus on one thing at a time. Which is fine. Some children do well learning small bits of information at a time and need review. Which is fine too.

 

The one thing I have noticed after all of these years with mastery math programs is well if you don't get the concept the first time around the program keeps pushing them ahead with very little to no review of past concepts. Then you get to the next grade level and if your child didn't get it the last time well to bad your going to move on. Versus Saxon that constantly reviews concept throughout the whole book.

 

For example: My 2nd daughter didn't really get how to find the missing number to a problem. You know like 17+A=22 . She was missing them. So we went over the concept again and you know what? That very concept has been being reviewed the whole time. We didn't have to go back a full chapter to review it. The book is still going over this concept. Now she is doing so much better because that light has finally gone off because she's been practicing it so much.

 

You are right about the tests. I'm not sure how you can keep going in the math without knowing there isn't a problem. The tetsts are your assessment and if they miss them on the test they shouldn't be moving on until they understand the concept a little bit better. So if there are 5 problems with finding the missing number and your child misses all 5 of them this should send off some alarm bells. If you read through the Saxon book you will know what lesson that came from. For example lesson 33 was when they taught them how to do this. So I went back to lesson 33 and we spent some time going over this concept more until she understood it. There is no law that says we can't go back and spend some time on something that wasn't truely understood either.

I have the 2nd edition books , not sure if this stands true for the 3rd edition books , but they also have supplemental lessons in the Appendix B (in the back of the book)that you can use to go over concepts that they didn't understand either.

 

So again I'm not sure how you can miss that. It may of been the other poster's child had difficulty with newer concepts he was learning, or maybe the curriculum just wasn't a good fit for child and mom. Not sure.

 

I'm also not saying Saxon is perfect. You won't know if doesn't work for you unless you try it though.

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Saxon was not a good fit for us. With one child it was obvious (many tears, etc) but with the other it wasn't (he could "do" the math and was getting straight A's but didn't understand it conceptually). I had no idea there was an issue with my second son until we switched programs and he finally began understanding math. If I hadn't switched him too (he didn't hate Saxon as much as his brother but when given the choice wanted to switch) we probably still wouldn't know. I will never again do another spiral math program. I don't know about all mastery programs but ours has plenty of review.

[Time for Chocolate]

Cheryl,

 

What math program did you switch to? Is it working better?

 

Thanks,

Judy

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Cheryl,

 

What math program did you switch to? Is it working better?

 

Thanks,

Judy

 

I switched to MUS, another somewhat controversial math program here;):lol: I LOVE it for conceptual understanding and it has been WONDERFUL for us!! My older boys are almost finished with Algebra 1 (they are in 8th and 9th grade). I was always very good in math but there are so many things that I finally understand from watching the DVD's. I just got Life of Fred and will be adding it for additional life application. I plan to start LOF Beginning Algebra and work around a semester behind MUS. This plan goes into action next week so I can't comment on how effective it is yet;)

 

My goal for math is conceptual understanding and real life application. Before the switch my 2nd ds could "do" math really well as long as it was in the format he was used to but because he didn't understand it he couldn't apply it to real life, making it (in my opinion) useless.

[Country Girl]

My goal for math is conceptual understanding and real life application. Before the switch my 2nd ds could "do" math really well as long as it was in the format he was used to but because he didn't understand it he couldn't apply it to real life, making it (in my opinion) useless.

 

Cheryl,

 

I'm still trying to understand this. How did you figure out that Saxon wasn't working? What clued you in that he wasn't getting it if he was scoring well on the tests? What do you mean that he could "do" math but wasn't getting it conceptually? I've read others who have had similar responses but I'm not quite sure I really understand what is meant by this. If we switch to Saxon I'm not sure I'd even know how to know it wasn't working if the tests scores were good.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

See it all boils down to how your child learns best. Some children want to only focus on one thing at a time. Which is fine. Some children do well learning small bits of information at a time and need review. Which is fine too.

 

The one thing I have noticed after all of these years with mastery math programs is well if you don't get the concept the first time around the program keeps pushing them ahead with very little to no review of past concepts. Then you get to the next grade level and if your child didn't get it the last time well to bad your going to move on. Versus Saxon that constantly reviews concept throughout the whole book.

 

For example: My 2nd daughter didn't really get how to find the missing number to a problem. You know like 17+A=22 . She was missing them. So we went over the concept again and you know what? That very concept has been being reviewed the whole time. We didn't have to go back a full chapter to review it. The book is still going over this concept. Now she is doing so much better because that light has finally gone off because she's been practicing it so much.

 

You are right about the tests. I'm not sure how you can keep going in the math without knowing there isn't a problem. The tetsts are your assessment and if they miss them on the test they shouldn't be moving on until they understand the concept a little bit better. So if there are 5 problems with finding the missing number and your child misses all 5 of them this should send off some alarm bells. If you read through the Saxon book you will know what lesson that came from. For example lesson 33 was when they taught them how to do this. So I went back to lesson 33 and we spent some time going over this concept more until she understood it. There is no law that says we can't go back and spend some time on something that wasn't truely understood either.

I have the 2nd edition books , not sure if this stands true for the 3rd edition books , but they also have supplemental lessons in the Appendix B (in the back of the book)that you can use to go over concepts that they didn't understand either.

 

So again I'm not sure how you can miss that. It may of been the other poster's child had difficulty with newer concepts he was learning, or maybe the curriculum just wasn't a good fit for child and mom. Not sure.

 

I'm also not saying Saxon is perfect. You won't know if doesn't work for you unless you try it though.

 

Thanks for your thougthful reply Tracy. Your description of how you identified problem concepts and dealt with them is exactly how I was envisioning the program should work. I didn't know about the supplemental lessons in the back of the book.... it sounds like those could be very valuable.

 

Thanks!

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Cheryl,

 

I'm still trying to understand this. How did you figure out that Saxon wasn't working? What clued you in that he wasn't getting it if he was scoring well on the tests? What do you mean that he could "do" math but wasn't getting it conceptually? I've read others who have had similar responses but I'm not quite sure I really understand what is meant by this. If we switch to Saxon I'm not sure I'd even know how to know it wasn't working if the tests scores were good.

 

Thanks!

 

My son knew what to "do" to solve problems if they were in the same "format" he was used to but didn't understand what he was doing so if he had to solve a problem that was based on the same concept but different he didn't do well. Since SAT testing uses basically the same format he was used to seeing he could "do" the problems and always scored very high. For instance, he knew that when you divide fractions you flip the second and then multiply but didn't understand the math behind what he was doing. He memorized a step (flip the second then multiply) so he could "do" it and we had no idea there wasn't conceptual understanding. Also, since it was how we learned it's not something that would automatically occur to us either. My other son couldn't remember the steps well (would sometimes flip the first instead of the second, etc) so it was obvious there was an issue. Even though I did well in math I have learned SO MUCH from MUS because I was like my 2nd son.

 

I hope that makes sense.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Cheryl in SoCal

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

See it all boils down to how your child learns best. Some children want to only focus on one thing at a time. Which is fine. Some children do well learning small bits of information at a time and need review. Which is fine too.

 

The one thing I have noticed after all of these years with mastery math programs is well if you don't get the concept the first time around the program keeps pushing them ahead with very little to no review of past concepts. Then you get to the next grade level and if your child didn't get it the last time well to bad your going to move on. Versus Saxon that constantly reviews concept throughout the whole book.

 

For example: My 2nd daughter didn't really get how to find the missing number to a problem. You know like 17+A=22 . She was missing them. So we went over the concept again and you know what? That very concept has been being reviewed the whole time. We didn't have to go back a full chapter to review it. The book is still going over this concept. Now she is doing so much better because that light has finally gone off because she's been practicing it so much.

 

You are right about the tests. I'm not sure how you can keep going in the math without knowing there isn't a problem. The tetsts are your assessment and if they miss them on the test they shouldn't be moving on until they understand the concept a little bit better. So if there are 5 problems with finding the missing number and your child misses all 5 of them this should send off some alarm bells. If you read through the Saxon book you will know what lesson that came from. For example lesson 33 was when they taught them how to do this. So I went back to lesson 33 and we spent some time going over this concept more until she understood it. There is no law that says we can't go back and spend some time on something that wasn't truely understood either.

I have the 2nd edition books , not sure if this stands true for the 3rd edition books , but they also have supplemental lessons in the Appendix B (in the back of the book)that you can use to go over concepts that they didn't understand either.

 

So again I'm not sure how you can miss that. It may of been the other poster's child had difficulty with newer concepts he was learning, or maybe the curriculum just wasn't a good fit for child and mom. Not sure.

 

I'm also not saying Saxon is perfect. You won't know if doesn't work for you unless you try it though.

 

The tests didn't tell us there was an issue because they were in the same format he was used to and were testing how he could "do" math, not testing conceptual understanding. For example, he knew that when you divide fractions you flip the second and multiply but didn't understand the concept behind what he was doing. The tests didn't catch it because they were testing whether he could "do" 1/2 divided by 1/2 and get the answer right, not testing him on whether or not he had conceptual understanding. SAT testing didn't catch it either because it tests using the same format. He memorized "steps" because that is how the curriculum taught it, and probably how most of us were taught so we didn't catch it either.

[Country Girl]

My son knew what to "do" to solve problems if they were in the same "format" he was used to but didn't understand what he was doing so if he had to solve a problem that was based on the same concept. Since SAT testing uses basically the same format he was used to seeing he could "do" the problems and always scored very high. For instance, he knew that when you divide fractions you flip the second and then multiply but didn't understand the math behind what he was doing. He memorized a step (flip the second then multiply) so he could "do" it and we had no idea there wasn't conceptual understanding. Also, since it was how we learned it's not something that would automatically occur to us either. My other son couldn't remember the steps well (would sometimes flip the first instead of the second, etc) so it was obvious there was an issue. Even though I did well in math I have learned SO MUCH from MUS because I was like my 2nd son.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Cheryl,

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer and explain this better to me. I think I'm starting to understand the problem that some people are having with Saxon and how it is possible to get deep into the program before it is discovered. I really appreciate your willingness to expand on your original post and help me get a better feel for the program.

 

Thanks!

[Guest Cheryl in SoCal]

Cheryl,

 

Thank you for taking the time to answer and explain this better to me. I think I'm starting to understand the problem that some people are having with Saxon and how it is possible to get deep into the program before it is discovered. I really appreciate your willingness to expand on your original post and help me get a better feel for the program.

 

Thanks!

You're welcome, I'm glad it helped! Honestly, because I was just like my son and learned math through a similar program I didn't realize there was a difference until I watched MUS's demo.

[cathmom]

My son is home from college and we are going to discuss his experience with Saxon in more depth. I will post later with what he says.

[babysparkler]

Personally, I learn best through mastery, so I think that Saxon would have driven me crazy.

 

See it all boils down to how your child learns best. Some children want to only focus on one thing at a time.

 

I agree. I think it really comes down to both the student's learning style AND the teacher's teaching style. I found Saxon to be a very strong math program. We started in 6/5 and stopped after 7/6 because we were highly frustrated with the spiral style of the curriculum. Neither of us liked it. We are both "mathy" and found ourselves frustrated when we would go from one topic to another when what we really wanted was more depth or challenge on the current material. Now, that depth would come around later, but we didn't want to wait, so I would go ahead and give him the "next step" and challenge him deeper than he was expected at the time... causing us to need to skip that later when it came around again. If it had been working for him, I am not sure if I could have "gone with the flow" and accepted the spiral approach... without much frustration, anyway. It bothered us both, though, so we switched.

 

How did you figure out that Saxon wasn't working?

 

It worked great for him as far as learning and retaining... just not in style. It never really was a problem for him as he was learning and retaining the material, but "not working" for us really only refers to the day-to-day style of the curriculum.

 

The tests didn't tell us there was an issue because they were in the same format he was used to and were testing how he could "do" math, not testing conceptual understanding.

 

Good point! I have also noticed this... so I made a point to go beyond the text to teach more of the how's/why's (again, it helps to be "mathy" yourself to be able to do this).

Edited May 10, 2010 by babysparkler

[Sebastian (a lady)]

For what it's worth, my middle son is very bright, but also more than a little perfectionist. We had a patch when he was in kindergarten or 1st grade (doing either Saxon 1 or 2) where he would end up in tears on any given worksheet, even the ones that he could do easily.

 

I finally came up with a litany about how he had all the tools that he needed for solving math. I would begin math lessons with a visualization exercise where he and his brother pictured their math bags and put in all sorts of tools from pencils to flashcards that they knew to erasers to rulers, etc. Sometimes this would go on for a couple minutes.

 

I think that it helped him to focus on the task at hand and to remind him that he really did have the tools needed to handle the problems in front of him.

 

I really think that for us, at least at that point in time, the tears weren't really about the particular math program. I think that I might have had tears with any number of other programs. Not to say that I didn't think hard about what I was doing when we were in the midst of these crying jags. Just to say that it isn't always something in need of a curriculum switch.

 

When I would think that Saxon wasn't working would be if the kids stopped retaining what they learned or if it seemed that they were no longer progressing on tests. So I would look for longish periods where they couldn't understand the lessons or where they couldn't do the homework that was based on the recent lessons.

 

Even with poor test results, I have to evaluate if it is an issue with their not understanding the material or if it had more to do with their attitude regarding the test or the timing of when I gave it (right at the end of the day or when they felt rushed, for example).

[TracyR]

Your right that just tears don't mean that a program isn't working. There have been many times we've had tears over something from anyone one given subject.

But if your child isn't progressing, is coming back and saying "I'm stupid in math,, I don't understand it." along with those tears. Then the program just isn't working.

[Country Girl]

My son is home from college and we are going to discuss his experience with Saxon in more depth. I will post later with what he says.

 

Thanks, I look forward to hearing your son's thoughts.

 

Thanks!

[Country Girl]

I agree. I think it really comes down to both the student's learning style AND the teacher's teaching style. I found Saxon to be a very strong math program. We started in 6/5 and stopped after 7/6 because we were highly frustrated with the spiral style of the curriculum. Neither of us liked it. We are both "mathy" and found ourselves frustrated when we would go from one topic to another when what we really wanted was more depth or challenge on the current material. Now, that depth would come around later, but we didn't want to wait, so I would go ahead and give him the "next step" and challenge him deeper than he was expected at the time... causing us to need to skip that later when it came around again. If it had been working for him, I am not sure if I could have "gone with the flow" and accepted the spiral approach... without much frustration, anyway. It bothered us both, though, so we switched.

 

 

 

It worked great for him as far as learning and retaining... just not in style. It never really was a problem for him as he was learning and retaining the material, but "not working" for us really only refers to the day-to-day style of the curriculum.

 

 

 

Good point! I have also noticed this... so I made a point to go beyond the text to teach more of the how's/why's (again, it helps to be "mathy" yourself to be able to do this).

 

Babysparkler,

 

Thanks for your thoughts on this topic. You have provided a new viewpoint that I haven't heard much of..... that Saxon is strong but the day-today style wasn't for you.

 

Thanks for sharing!

[Country Girl]

For what it's worth, my middle son is very bright, but also more than a little perfectionist. We had a patch when he was in kindergarten or 1st grade (doing either Saxon 1 or 2) where he would end up in tears on any given worksheet, even the ones that he could do easily.

 

I finally came up with a litany about how he had all the tools that he needed for solving math. I would begin math lessons with a visualization exercise where he and his brother pictured their math bags and put in all sorts of tools from pencils to flashcards that they knew to erasers to rulers, etc. Sometimes this would go on for a couple minutes.

 

I think that it helped him to focus on the task at hand and to remind him that he really did have the tools needed to handle the problems in front of him.

 

I really think that for us, at least at that point in time, the tears weren't really about the particular math program. I think that I might have had tears with any number of other programs. Not to say that I didn't think hard about what I was doing when we were in the midst of these crying jags. Just to say that it isn't always something in need of a curriculum switch.

 

When I would think that Saxon wasn't working would be if the kids stopped retaining what they learned or if it seemed that they were no longer progressing on tests. So I would look for longish periods where they couldn't understand the lessons or where they couldn't do the homework that was based on the recent lessons.

 

Even with poor test results, I have to evaluate if it is an issue with their not understanding the material or if it had more to do with their attitude regarding the test or the timing of when I gave it (right at the end of the day or when they felt rushed, for example).

 

Sebastian,

 

Thanks, you brought up some good points to keep in mind whenever we are evaluating curriculum choices.

 

Thanks!

[Time for Chocolate]

Thanks Cheryl!

 

We started MUS today (I've been considering it due to reading threads about learning styles, ect...). My son has been doing Saxon since K and he is now in 5th. He is a hands on/visual learner, needs time to absorb new material, is a perfectionist and wants to know the 'why' of math. The spiral method seems too much for him. He would do all of the work, half in the morning and half in the afternoon, but was miserable. I've been stubborn about changing programs because I know Saxon is tried and true and his end of the year testing/assessments have always been good with Saxon. I also kept reading things like - 'Pick a math program and stick with it so they won't have gaps.' and 'They won't be able to change their textbook in college if they don't like it - so help them learn to adapt.'

 

MUS went very well today. He has been having trouble with his multiplication facts. Somtimes he could do them with no problem, other times if the rote fact didn't come to him right away he became frustrated and shut down. He loved 'seeing' it today in Gamma. We made a copy of the multiplication facts sheet and marked through the ones that he already knows. He could 'see' the ones he is still having trouble with and realized that it was not very many. He actually liked doing math today. He and my daughter (who has no problem with Saxon or her math facts) both said, 'Oh I get it now."

 

So, Country Girl, I guess I would suggest making sure you know your child's learning style and personality and pick the math program that fits him. I've read in different threads about people who use more than one math program at a time. That's a possibility, too. I might do that...

 

I hope something in there helped ya.

 

Have a great day,

Judy

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

Over a period of time, my son was missing over half the problems everyday. At first I thought it was simply carelessness. But I did a comprehension check and asked him to explain to me how to do several of the problems. He could not explain ANY of the problems step by step. That was Saxon 7/6. We put it away and never looked back. There just weren't enough problems for practice when a skill was first introduced/taught. Then stretch a misunderstanding over time, mix it in with several different kinds of problems everyday, and well, you have a recipe for failure.

 

Incremental learning is a good fit for us in the elementary years. But beyond the 5th grade, it becomes a less effective tool (for us). We have since settled into a pattern of using Saxon 1-3, then Saxon 5/4 and 6/5. We usually finish this series in the 5th grade. Then we move to a tool appropriate for each individual child.

 

I am most comfortable teaching a mastery based program in middle and high school, while using a review supplement. We do our core program four days a week and the review supplement once a week. Although, I do occasionally assign review "homework," to strengthen any weaknesses I see in daily work.

 

It was much harder to do that with Saxon because there was too much going on in each problem set.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Something that I've noticed in Saxon is that it will explain they why and how of a problem in the lesson, but that my kids often skim the lesson and move right to the algorithm, so they haven't fully absorbed why they are doing what they are doing. Dividing fractions took us a week of reviewing the same lesson each day before they really understood why they were multiplying by the reciprocal.

 

Now that we're doing problems like x(x-2) I find that I really have to stay on top of them to show their work. My kids have a very instinctive understanding of math, but that leads them to often overestimate what they actually have mastered. By forcing them to show their work for longer than they'd like, I can help drill the reasons why certain "tricks" are mathematically true.

[cathmom]

OK, I talked with my son. He did Saxon 7/6, Alg 1/2, Algebra 1, 2, and Advanced Mathematics. Somewhere during Alg 1, he started working with a friend who was slightly ahead of him as his math tutor, and then for Alg 2 and Adv Math he had a tutor who was a math teacher at a local highly regarded charter school.

 

Here are his comments:

 

He never understood where Saxon was going (ie, the big picture).

 

He found it very difficult to find explanations in the books. (I know that they have the lesson number usually, but if you wanted to review a whole concept, it would require finding each increment and then putting them together on your own.)

 

He could not make the mental leap to understanding math as a whole from the incremental parts.

 

He also told me that various college professors have said that he does seem to understand the concept of a problem (basically all the parts with words - he is an English major!), but is not actually able to solve it.

[Suzannah]

Well here's why we jumped ship. I did my research before we started hs-ing because I didn't want to jump around from one thing to another, trying to find what "fit." Looking back, I wish we'd started Saxon 1 in K, only because DS was well-prepared enough by the WTM suggestions that his enthusiasm for math diminished after a couple of months in first grade. He was a big first grader and he was bored going over all this stuff he already knew. But at that time I thought it was better to review rather than skip over things so we stuck with the progression from 1st-6th grade.

 

Saxon 1-3 was fine. DS neither loved nor hated math. 5/4-7/6 were difficult. When I saw that DS was struggling in 5/4 I considered switching programs and did all my previous research over. Then I decided that it was probably just a phase, that it really didn't matter whether or not DS liked math, but that he learned it. And through 5/4 and 6/5, DS did learn math, but it became a more and more arduous journey.

 

We added the DIVE CDs in 6/5 and 7/6, which helped, but by mid-year in 7/6, we were having to go back over lessons sometimes 2 and 3 times before moving ahead. And sometimes even that wasn't enough. So we'd move ahead, hoping it would click later, but the next lesson would be the same way. We were both frustrated and often angry. At some point it seemed the new concepts were becoming more and more difficult and were being introduced faster and faster and we just had to stop. We switched to Teaching Textbooks 7 in February and I also got Life of Fred Fractions at roughly the same time. Both of those programs brought an immediate change to DS' attitude. LOF was directly responsible for DS scoring really well in the fractions section of our standardized test last year.

 

So this year we have done LOF: Decimals and Percents, finished TT7 and taken advantage of the free trial available to homeschoolers for ALEKS.com (2 months if you refer two people.) We'll do LOF: Pre-Algebra over the summer to make sure it's really solid, then begin Algebra in the Fall (if not September, then by November/December.)

 

I think TT has served its purpose and we will not continue with it. I have nothing against the program, but my main hope in using it was to get DS out of his funk of "I hate math! I can't do this! It's just too hard!" The format with the cute graphics, doing the assignments on the computer, the "buddy" (his is a tank) aren't available in the upper levels as I understand it so if that was the attraction, it won't be there next year anyway. Right now I'm trying to decide between all Life of Fred, or LOF and MUS DS loves Fred. There's no way we could ditch him.

 

So that's our story. Right now DD is about half-way through Saxon 3 and loving it. But she is legally blind and while the font size on the 1-3 books is fine, trying to find a large print version for her in the next level is impractical ($400 a book!?) We're actually thinking of going with TT for her since she can see it on our large computer monitor and have the audio explanations.

Edited May 14, 2010 by Suzannah
Typos...ugh!

[Country Girl]

Thank you everyone for the replies. I somehow "lost" this thread and so didn't see many of the responses until now.

 

Cathmom~ Please thank your son for taking the time to give some first hand insight into what wasn't working for him.

 

Sebastian ~ I definitely think my oldest can sometimes be overconfident with what he knows and understand. I too have to force my ds to show his work and when he doesn't those are often the times he makes careless mistakes.

 

Judy~ Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The advice to follow my children's learning styles and personality is good. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time figuring that out:confused:. We have been supplementing BJU with LOF and we will definitely be keeping LOF.

 

LittleHouseHomeschool~ Would you mind sharing what type of review homework you add to the mastery programs you choose?

 

Thanks everyone!

[LittleHouseHomeschool]

...a variety of resources, depending on the need. Right now I'm using a Glencoe Applications and Concepts math book for review. (Because Glencoe teaches every miniscule baby step, so it's a great review.)

 

I like Daily Math Warm Ups too and when the children were really young, we'd dabble in inexpensive workbooks from Barnes and Noble or the educational bookstore.

 

Whatever you use, I would not just hand the book over and ask the child to do a page. It's worked better for me to identify any holes that have developed in their math understanding and then pay specific attention to those concepts during review time. We do regular math four times a week and then review math on Friday.

[Country Girl]

...a variety of resources, depending on the need. Right now I'm using a Glencoe Applications and Concepts math book for review. (Because Glencoe teaches every miniscule baby step, so it's a great review.)

 

I like Daily Math Warm Ups too and when the children were really young, we'd dabble in inexpensive workbooks from Barnes and Noble or the educational bookstore.

 

Whatever you use, I would not just hand the book over and ask the child to do a page. It's worked better for me to identify any holes that have developed in their math understanding and then pay specific attention to those concepts during review time. We do regular math four times a week and then review math on Friday.

 

Thanks for sharing how you add review to your regular program. I like how you have one day a week devoted to review and how it is specific to items you think need attention.