s/o Catherine's thread on paying for college

[Ester Maria]

I noted the HUGE discrepancy between those who were paying their own way vs. those who were living on Mommy & Daddy's dime. HUGE DIFFERENCE. (I'm not talking specifically here about drinking and debauchery. I am speaking to the MANY, MANY class periods I endured that were full of:

 

"Is this gonna be on the test?"

 

"Why are you making that paper so long?"

 

"You aren't going to assign that over the break, are you?!"

 

And various other statements that were clearly intended to discern how little work could be done to get a decent grade, but to still allow enough time to "party". :glare:

 

I was paying my own way and didn't have TIME to party and it made me SO ANGRY that these losers were wanting the bare minimum of the ACADEMIC college experience so that they could experience more of the "PARTY college experience." :confused:

Without questioning that your college experience indeed was such as you describe it and that the discrepancy you noted was such that those who payed their education turned out better experts and more appreciative of that education, I would like to point out to, perhaps, a different perspective out there. :)

 

I didn't have "party college experience"; overall, college experience in Europe tends to be... different, most of the people who survived their freshmen year were indeed rather serious about their studies when I was a student. There is no "dorm culture" to an extent it exists in the States, and the entire lifestyle is a bit different. That doesn't mean, though, that there weren't people who basically wanted to waste their college years to live at somebody's expense and do nothing. Only... Guess what?

 

Those people were usually those with the working class / lower middle class background. Incredible, but it was that way. The overall college education is a lot more affordable than in the States (not to mention that it can be entirely free too), there are great living and eating benefits for students (that take into account their socioeconomic background too), and basically, being a student - the status of being a student - is a good way to essentially do nothing in life for a few years, if you're just a little talented, and have just a little money.

From my experience, it was totally the opposite of yours: the working class students, especially if they came from province so they "discovered" Rome (or Paris, or you-name-it) upon their arrival, were the ones that usually ended up clubbing, partying, dedicating themselves to various extras, bunking lessons, etc. That's not to say that middle/upper class and bourgeoisie didn't do it, but surprisingly, they always somehow knew where the line was. They also knew that mommy and daddy who finance them want results, and in social circles they come from, it was usually greater embarrassment to drop out of college or to study for five years and technically be a third year, and such things - in other words, the pressure on richer kids from their own social background was actually a lot bigger than the pressure on kids from working class families, especially if they were the first or second generation to go to college at all.

 

Another thing I noted was that richer kids were in 90% of the cases better education, in spite of the fact that in Italy you don't have the tradition of private education the way you have in the Anglo-American world. Families from richer socioeconomic background regularly invest into their children - because they can (let's be frank here, we ALL do it to the maximum extent we can, as naturally as parents we want to provide our children with as much as we can). So those children regularly went to state schools that taught classical languages, to state music conservatories in addition to regular schools, to trips abroad, etc., they were simply invested into, because they came from families with a tradition of "investing" into your children. And those were the investments that, theoretically, many other people could have afforded - but they came from backgrounds in which there wasn't such "culture" of "investing" into your children and providing them with more and better.

 

So all that resulted with the fact that in universities, rich kids were almost always the better educated ones and the ones that were used to working more than the state minimum. As such, they came with better educational bases, it was easier for them to build on that base and if they took their education seriously, they were almost without exception more successful than their poorer colleagues.

 

They did have certain "peace of mind", the ability to party without too much worries because they knew that, should something go wrong, their parents were there and could support them BUT on the whole, except for that "peace of mind", they didn't really differ from other students.

 

And other students had all the means to make up for what they missed in their education (libraries, extra lessons, etc. - free!), yet very few actually did it. Why? It ended up with upper class mostly remaining upper class, middle class mostly remaining middle class, lower class mostly remaining lower class, with little oscillations - and most of the drop-outs and students who did the bare minimum and could not follow the lessons were the ones from the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum. In a system which was a LOT more financially fair than the American one. The "why" of it escapes me, it's more suitable for a Sociology dissertation, and that's not my field. But I just wanted to state a stark contrast to the experience you described.

 

To sum it up, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with who financed you - as always, there were some parents that just refused to finance their kids even if they could, and some who couldn't finance theirs yet they went into debts and did finance them, there were all kinds of financial arrangements for surviving those years of studying - but it had way more to do with the values you were brought up with (my talk of social classes is one huge generalization, of course, but it does mostly resemble the truth I've seen in a few countries, it's not Italy-specific... the truth that the upper class kids usually - not 100% of the cases, but usually - grew up with hell of an academic responsibility and expectations of them, and were under a lot of pressure not only to graduate, but to graduate well, and that's how it's even today) and with your personal work ethics and willingness to work. That was, actually, the crucial element. The rich kids only had it better in sense that, if they lacked it, their families pushed them and nagged them and forced them and slapped some sense into them so they did pull themselves together in the end and finish those studies well.

 

That was at least my experience. Again, it had NOTHING to do with who payed for you, but it was related to class - only differently.

 

Sorry for hijacking your post, I just thought I'd share my .02. :)

[HRAAB]

I must have grown up much less wealthy than most people on this board. My parents paying for college wasn't even an option. I KNEW not to even ask. DH and I married in a courthouse, no wedding. We couldn't afford a wedding.

 

My kids will have their college paid for ONLY IF THEY GO TO A STATE SCHOOL THAT IS IN OUR TOWN AND LIVE AT HOME. That's what we can afford.

 

We absolutely will NOT go into debt for their education, wedding or home. We have to focus on our retirement. I had to take out student loans. I guess they will, too if they don't get scholarships.

 

This attitude of "Well, just save some money!" seems very classist to me. Let's be honest here, it IS classist. Not everyone HAS that option.

 

I'm happy for those of you who can buy their kids cars, weddings, house down payments, and college educations (and INSIST that they live in the dorms-MORE EXPENSE!), but,....wow,....many people just CAN'T.

 

 

I have also seen many college kids who used their college experience to sow their wild oats.....on their parent's dime. Even if I could I would not fully finance a young adult's Spring Break, drunken sorority/frat party experience. Finding one's own way is NOT such a disservice. I noted the HUGE discrepancy between those who were paying their own way vs. those who were living on Mommy & Daddy's dime. HUGE DIFFERENCE. (I'm not talking specifically here about drinking and debauchery. I am speaking to the MANY, MANY class periods I endured that were full of:

 

"Is this gonna be on the test?"

 

"Why are you making that paper so long?"

 

"You aren't going to assign that over the break, are you?!"

 

And various other statements that were clearly intended to discern how little work could be done to get a decent grade, but to still allow enough time to "party". :glare:

 

I was paying my own way and didn't have TIME to party and it made me SO ANGRY that these losers were wanting the bare minimum of the ACADEMIC college experience so that they could experience more of the "PARTY college experience." :confused:

 

:iagree: Thanks!

[Nicole M]

 

To sum it up, it had absolutely NOTHING to do with who financed you - as always, there were some parents that just refused to finance their kids even if they could, and some who couldn't finance theirs yet they went into debts and did finance them, there were all kinds of financial arrangements for surviving those years of studying - but it had way more to do with the values you were brought up with (my talk of social classes is one huge generalization, of course, but it does mostly resemble the truth I've seen in a few countries, it's not Italy-specific... the truth that the upper class kids usually - not 100% of the cases, but usually - grew up with hell of an academic responsibility and expectations of them, and were under a lot of pressure not only to graduate, but to graduate well, and that's how it's even today) and with your personal work ethics and willingness to work. That was, actually, the crucial element. The rich kids only had it better in sense that, if they lacked it, their families pushed them and nagged them and forced them and slapped some sense into them so they did pull themselves together in the end and finish those studies well.

 

 

I have worked at a small, expensive liberal arts college for 10 years where there are many of students from very wealthy families. I currently have 15 students on my staff, and over the years have had dozens. My experience has been this as well, that family culture has more to do with the work ethic that a student has than their socioeconomic background. In our work, we have lots of downtime, so I get to know the students very well, and hear all their stories (boy will they unload!). I've had lazy poor kids and lazy rich kids, but very seldom. Mostly I've had hard working kids.

[Hockey Mom]

I've spent the last 18 years teaching my DD work ethics and finances. She has been told from an early age that she will be responsible for her own college. She will begin college in the fall, and has merit scholarships that will cover it all for four years (assuming she meets academic expectations for all four years).

 

We just had to take her car to the junk yard because it was worth more at the junk yard than to fix it. So she has been saving her paychecks (she works at Burger King) for the past 4 months to buy a car. She will work two jobs over the summer if she needs to (her idea, not ours), in order to build her savings back up after she buys a car.

 

We will be giving her a laptop for her graduation. That's our contribution.

 

However, I will be sending her care packages every month...but she doesn't know that. :)

 

My parents didn't pay for anything for me. Not college, not cars, not weddings...nothing. I paid for it all myself. It never even dawned on me to ask them for those things. I just assumed that with freedom came responsibility, and wanted my freedom more than I wanted their money. ;)

[LibraryLover]

In retrospect, that was TMI. So I edited it out. Some people think that those who get help turn into freeloaders who have no values. Nothing I might share will change such a belief.

 

If you can't help, you can't. That's a simple equation.

 

I want to help my kids where I can. I don't think anything would give me greater pleasure.

Edited April 25, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Ester Maria]

It's not about how much money you have, it's about whether you value something enough to want to help. It's one thing to not have the money...if one cannot help, one cannot help. That is a pretty simple equation. Helping is something you do if you can do, and want to do, and without strings or wanting to control. I hope I can help, because nothing would give me more joy, really.

Thank you for summing up my essay in few sentences. :)

 

If you cannot help, you cannot help - and in my opinion you really need to be a spoiled brat to resent that. Any normal child will understand that, hell, circumstances are such and such, my parents cannot help in any way, so I will have to do it the hard way. You won't be the first nor the last one that will have to do it the hard way in life.

 

However, if you, objectively speaking, can help, but don't want to... Don't get me wrong - I am NOT here to judge anyone's decisions on their own money, cv''s! But I can't help feeling a bit like thinking, well, if you don't value health and education (two of the most important of the things that, to an extent, can be bought) enough to want to help if you can (to an extent you can), what DO you value enough?

 

I'm all for responsibility and independence, but as with everything, I think there's a middle ground, and that 18 isn't a magical age at which they just stop being kids and we can "kick them out" - literally or metaphorically. :confused:

[runamuk]

I must have grown up much less wealthy than most people on this board. My parents paying for college wasn't even an option. I KNEW not to even ask. DH and I married in a courthouse, no wedding. We couldn't afford a wedding.

 

My kids will have their college paid for ONLY IF THEY GO TO A STATE SCHOOL THAT IS IN OUR TOWN AND LIVE AT HOME. That's what we can afford.

 

We absolutely will NOT go into debt for their education, wedding or home. We have to focus on our retirement. I had to take out student loans. I guess they will, too if they don't get scholarships.

 

This attitude of "Well, just save some money!" seems very classist to me. Let's be honest here, it IS classist. Not everyone HAS that option.

 

I'm happy for those of you who can buy their kids cars, weddings, house down payments, and college educations (and INSIST that they live in the dorms-MORE EXPENSE!), but,....wow,....many people just CAN'T.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Growing up, my family was poor. We knew that we were on our own for college, a car, a wedding and a house. We could live at home as long as we contributed in some way. I joined the Marine Corps right out of high school, bought my own car and went to the JoP for my wedding.

 

When our oldest (now nearly 21) graduated high school, we paid for her community college classes and books as long as she lived at home. We couldn't afford to buy her a car, so she worked to afford one. When we left NC (military orders), she chose to stay behind and move in with some friends. She knew that if she stayed, she would be on her own for school and the other financial assistance we provided would disappear as well. She had some savings bonds which she put towards her education and this saw her through this last semester at college. She'll be coming home in two weeks and joining the Army, as she no longer has a job and can't afford to stay in school. We offered to pay for her classes while she was living here, but after 2 years on her own, she doesn't want to come back and be dependent on mom and dad.

 

Our younger kids are on their own for college, as well. We'd love to contribute, but finances are tight and we're saving for our retirement (which is coming up much faster than I thought it would :tongue_smilie:). We'll help out with tuition at a community or state college and where ever else we can. We'll shelter them, feed them, and drive them around. They'll have access to the tools they'll need (computer, etc) and a basic cellphone. We'll give them what we can to get the best possible start to their lives, but our finances and resources are limited.

 

We don't feel we should provide them with a car. That's a luxury, in our eyes. We won't provide them with a wedding or a down payment on a house, either. We feel those are adult responsibilities and should be undertaken by the adult wanting those things.

Edited April 25, 2010 by runamuk
spelling

[Nicole M]

In retrospect, that was TMI. So I edited it out. Some people think that those who get help turn into freeloaders don't value education. nothing I might share will change the belief.

 

If you can't help, you can't. That's a simple equation.

 

I want to help my kids where I can. I don't think anything would give me greater pleasure.

 

I think you hit it here. My parents paid for everything, not out of love but out of a desire to control, and a to display that they'd achieved the American Dream. "My child goes to an expensive school, becaue I can pay." My parents are an extreme case, both are functional but clearly suffer from personality disorders or issues. With them, it wasn't so much "my way or the highway" -- it was only their way. My parents were cruel. It took me years and years to be able to appreciate the "gift" of the education I received.

 

My concern is that I want my children to feel like they have options, and I want them to feel empowered to reach out an pursue their passions and interests. We are not wealthy; we are creative.

 

MFS mentioned that she would offer her children a home. I am not sure what she means, but, honestly, unless they were facing extreme circumstances -- extended or terminal illness, financial disaster or, say, the death of their spouse -- I do not want my grown children returning home. I will do everything in my power to see that my children have the tools they need to launch themselves into this beautiful world as functioning, healthy, contributing members of our society. I personally believe that a fine education is an exceptionally important tool, worthy of investment.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

:glare: OF COURSE there are those who "get everything paid for, but don't turn into freeloaders". I didn't mean to imply that EVERY kid who has their college education paid for turns into a selfish prig.

 

 

HOWEVER......MY observation was that the kids who were paying their OWN way were more responsible and aware of their actions and consequences. I SAW AND HEARD far too many times the attitude of,"doesn't matter, my parents will pay for it".

 

 

Yes, I absolutely DO REALIZE that there are responsible kids whose parents are paying the bill. I get that. It just wasn't what I observed.

 

Also, on the CONTROL front there HAVE been a few threads here about the behaviour of college kids and repeatedly I have seen the sentiment bandied about, "Well, if you are paying for his college experience then you ABSOLUTELY should have the say-so in who he lives with" as well as other decisions that this adult "child" must make.

[EKS]

We will pay for college.

[May]

Our dd paid for some of her community college classes and books. She drove our oldest car (242,000 mile Camry) and put in the gas. She will go off and finish her degree and we will pay if she keeps a 3.0 and shows us she is responsible. We don't plan on paying for her wedding and have told her such. After 12+ years of private schooling, we will be done.:)

[LisaKinVA]

Regarding weddings ... what will you do if the other family does not agree? We will make a monetary gift to the couple. What they do with the money is their business. If the bride's parents insist on a lavish wedding, they should pay for it.

 

Honestly, I haven't gotten to weddings yet. We spent $5000 on ours 13 years ago, but I do think we should have spent an extra $250 to upgrade the food. We went cheap on food and well... it tasted like it.

 

I don't think my children will be "after" a lavish wedding, and like I mentioned before, I can do an awesome cake (which is a HUGE expense), I also know how to cook for a crowd, and plan those meals. Lastly, I know how to get "nice" things for a lot less. When the time comes, we'll agree upon a budget, and work to make a wonderful memory for the young couple on the agreed upon budget.

[Guest pld]

That was at least my experience. Again, it had NOTHING to do with who payed for you, but it was related to class - only differently.

 

Sorry for hijacking your post, I just thought I'd share my .02. :)

 

 

Ester Maria, I agree with what you are writing. Class, as defined in Europe, is a determining factor whether or not you will succeed in college. However I would also add that even if a student from a working class, brought up by parents that do care about education (that was my case), the society in general is putting a lot of pressure to keep you in the social class you started in.

I happen to do well in school however when asked if I would be going to college, the answer from my parents would be "yes IF he is capable". This answer will never come from the mouth of a rich parents. They would always assume that their child is capable. In 9th grade, in France, we have to make a choice between going to the general or the technical high school, the first being the easiest way to go to college. I was asked to really think if the technical track would not be better for me, not because of my grades but simply because my parents were working class. A classmate of mine with similar or lower grades than I was never asked that question, it was obvious she was going to the general high school, her dad was the owner of the biggest clinic in town.

Also rich kids would tend not to mix with poor ones simply by the fact of location (they lived in more expensive neighborhood than poor kids). This is actually very similar to the US.

[asta]

Ester Maria, I agree with what you are writing. Class, as defined in Europe, is a determining factor whether or not you will succeed in college. However I would also add that even if a student from a working class, brought up by parents that do care about education (that was my case), the society in general is putting a lot of pressure to keep you in the social class you started in.

I happen to do well in school however when asked if I would be going to college, the answer from my parents would be "yes IF he is capable". This answer will never come from the mouth of a rich parents. They would always assume that their child is capable. In 9th grade, in France, we have to make a choice between going to the general or the technical high school, the first being the easiest way to go to college. I was asked to really think if the technical track would not be better for me, not because of my grades but simply because my parents were working class. A classmate of mine with similar or lower grades than I was never asked that question, it was obvious she was going to the general high school, her dad was the owner of the biggest clinic in town.

Also rich kids would tend not to mix with poor ones simply by the fact of location (they lived in more expensive neighborhood than poor kids). This is actually very similar to the US.

 

Yes.

 

I have a dear friend from Northern England (practically Scotland) who came from a coal mining town. Despite the fact she aced her A levels, it was "understood" she would NEVER be going on to uni.

 

For those in America who would like a frame of reference to the type of town I'm referencing - if you've ever seen the movie Billy Elliot - he lived in a similar town. Even his house was similar: tiny attached row house with a toilet in a small enclosure out behind the house.

 

There are opportunities available in the US that are simply. not. available to people even in other "1st world" nations.

 

 

a

[Audrey]

What do you expect to provide your kids with after 18? Do you plan to pay all or part of college, or nothing? Do you feel you owe your children a wedding, or a car to start them off in life? Do you plan to lend them money to buy a house, or pay for expenses for their children?

 

Do you have a plan, or is it we'll see how it goes? Any strong convictions out there?

 

No wedding, no car, no college, no house.

 

That said, there is some planning. We've always put ds's birthday and holiday money in a RESP account. He also puts his allowance in there, and the money he makes as a neighbour's occasional "livestock helper." The last 2 years, he also put his money from the sale of his 4-H calves into there. He's got a hefty sum already. The govt. matches his deposit (only up to $400/yr.) and it's to be used for post-secondary education. He could go to college or university or a trades program -- his choice.

 

He knows he may live here as long as he likes as long as he contributes to the household in some way (not necessarily cash).

 

We feel that we're preparing him well to be a self-sufficient, independent adult. He already knows that if he wants anything big in life, he has to work for it.

[Daisy]

We'll probably help out when we can, but I don't feel "responsible" to provide money for college, marriage, house, car, whatever.

 

There is a line between helping out and just borrowing trouble from the future.

 

My parents didn't (couldn't) help me with any of the above things, but years later they chased out their retirement to pay for some issues my sister was having. I don't begrudge that because it needed to happen, but it has created major problems now. Now they are getting to retirement age and have almost nothing saved up. Guess who the burden of their care is going to fall to?

[laughing lioness]

What do you expect to provide your kids with after 18? Both of our older 2 dd's have lived with us past 18. They are expected to contribute in some way- chores, $, help with the youngers, etc. Our kids will be welcome in our home until the day we die.

Do you plan to pay all or part of college, or nothing? Our oldest is in college on a full ride. Our 2nd is working and will probably take on-line classes soon. There is no CC option here. We don't have $ to contribute to school but we will support our kids in whatever other way we can.

Do you feel you owe your children a wedding, or a car to start them off in life? No. We don't feel we "owe" our kids any of that "stuff." What we feel we owe them, we have tried, to the best of our ability to give them. An education, ability to think, experiences, etc.etc.etc. Creating a meaningful wedding is something we would all be invested in but that doesn't necessarily mean lots of money is invovled. A great celebration can had without debt.

My parents, and dh's, both paid for college, but we both paid for all of our other expenses. Both of us graduated at 21 and we were on our own, in every way. Friends of ours (incuding sibings) who were given more by parents are far better off financially than we might ever be. I'd like to be able to give my kids more $, but otoh, they are incredibly creative, resourceful people who don't struggle with some of the foolishness that is so prevelant. My sil was comparing her dd with my oldest. She and her dd dont' talk- my inlaws pay for neices college, room and board etc, phone, on and on and sil was lamenting that her dd is such a brat and she is so proud of my dd and (emphasis hers)"she has absolutely nothing." Wow. I didn't realize we looked that destitute to others!

Do you plan to lend them money to buy a house, or pay for expenses for their children? No on the house. Whateve else we would pay for would be a blessing, not an expectation.

 

Do you have a plan, or is it we'll see how it goes? Any strong convictions out there? Loved what MFS said about convictions :001_smile:

 

$ Aid for school is a huge concern. On paper we make a whole lot of money. Irl, we live on a real tight budget. How our oldest is going to college is a miracle, so we continue to wait on a few more.