Unschoolers on Good Morning America!

[LibraryLover]

You may have a paradigm, but I don't. I think what works in your family, works in your family. People opposed to unschooling say it doesn't work; that this family is doing their children a disservice. That the children are not learning, that there is no proof they learned anthing in Europe etc. That's the conundrum-- the assumption that this approach will create lazy adults who play WOW all day and live in their parents basement.

 

I think children can learn a lot by being forced/encouraged. They might not remember it, but they can learn it. They might even come to enjoy and excell at it. I don't know how many ways I can say there are various paths. I can say I reject some paths for my family, but that doesn't make your path wrong, although you're reading that into my post. Stop doing that, ok. :)

 

I am going to take an example of doing something different, and having it be fine for your family but totally wrong for my family and my way of looking at the world.

 

So try to read this as gently as I am trying to say it:

 

I saw Susan's video about quiet time/nap time in her home. At first, I was horrified by the degree which she controlled the children, and how they had absoltuely no say in being put in their rooms for two hours a day for all those years, and at the ages her older sons are. I was floored. I read about it her book, but seeing it; her asking her dd if she could come out of her room...that whole dialogue was painful for me to hear. (And yes I know Susan joked she could come out to go to the bathroom. I never thought she couldn't lol )

 

I would *never* feel comfortable doing that. BUT WAIT! Don't hang me yet.

 

I thought about it for two seconds. I realized that it was right for her. For her family. That her children are loving, intelligent, creative--and from what I have read about conferences--the sibs get a long well with each other, and are supportive. Exactly as mine do/are.

 

Our children are similar ages. We got to the same place. We got there being the kind of parent that was most authentic to us. Susan does things her way, the way that feels right to her, and I do what feels right to me. It's that simple.

 

The things is, I can see this about most schoolers; their kids are bright and eager. Yet this thread doesn't show me that schoolers believe those of us who are relaxed can get to this same place of healthy, eager, intelligent children who enjoy their families and want to learn.

 

I share my family here, not to say we are doing better...I share to show that these notions that relaxed, democractic families someone have children picking their noses rather than learning French, simply because we don't go about hsing in the same way as the majority fo hsers. You are the hs maintream: people on the unschooling spectrum represent a tiny segment of the hsing population.

 

 

 

I disagree with your paradigm. I don't think it's EITHER unschooling/child-led OR forced by parents. In my family we each do our part. I don't have specific expectations of how much my kids will learn, just that they will work at each subject that I've given them to work on. I don't feel like my time is being wasted--my kids are making progress in each subject area, and it isn't painful for them. I don't push them when they're not ready.

 

Like you said, there is no magic way to raise an excited learner--including unschooling. My kids don't hate school, of course they'd rather take a day off than sit down with their books...but when they're in middle school or high school what their driving passion is, we'll be ready. I don't think you can say that kids will learn whatever they want when they have an intrinsic desire. I've seen too many occasions where it hasn't happened that way.

 

However, it sounds like your way of doing things is working for your family, and that's great!

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

I never did worry. I saw that my children were cognitively normal, and one child was/is anxious. I knew that my two year olds were overwhelmed by a room full of Duplos or blocks , and needed help cleaning them up. They were not being naughty and not trying to get out of something. Knowing what they could do, and knowing what was too much guided me through-out the early years. I also saw that my children were very eager and wanted to do things.

 

Nobody likes to clean, really. I mean some people do. :) Dh and I always talked about wanting our family to be a team; to take care of each other and have home be a safe haven. I think we got lucky in some ways; our personalities mesh somehow, dh and I come to this with diffferent skills that seem to compliment each other, although we've had trying times. My dh was born with great patience for our anxious child, and I was born with an understanding of anxiety. One of our children was born with a birth defect and had special needs and therapies for a long time, and one of our children is adopted (in infancy). I think we could have a far more difficult time than we are. Somehow, even with our parituclar issues, the wind was always at our back. They kids have always responded pretty well to our years of talking about many hands making light work. I think it's because they see how hard their dad and I work that they want to contribute.

 

Of course, it's not over until the large lady sings. It's not as if all my children are grown and on their own. However, for the most part, I am enjoying the journey.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We haven't punished. But I have a question for you. When they were little, were you concerned about the formation of their character while you were not forcing/coercing? Did you always trust they would grow up to share in responsibilities around the house, or were you worried they would kick back and eat bonbons while you vacuumed under their feet? I guess...did you always trust yourself and your methods?

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[momto2Cs]

What got me is that the teenage son said he sometimes wonders what it would have been like if he had stayed in school. To me, that indicated some sort of curiosity/regret...

 

I do think this report was tremendously biased, and poorly put together. I'd love to see someone do a series on ALL types of homeschooling!

[Penelope]

What got me is that the teenage son said he sometimes wonders what it would have been like if he had stayed in school. To me, that indicated some sort of curiosity/regret...

 

 

I think a lot of kids must wonder that, no matter how they were schooled. It's natural to wonder what the other side must be like.

[LibraryLover]

Of course. I don't see that as regret. Not to mention, parents can't be raising kids thinking about what kids might regret you didn't do for them. That is not a responsibility we can take on. We can do our best and respect our children and their needs, but we cannot know what a grown child might or might not say about our parenting. lol Imagine! I could not take on that burden!

 

I think a lot of kids must wonder that, no matter how they were schooled. It's natural to wonder what the other side must be like.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You may have a paradigm, but I don't. I think what works in your family, works in your family. People opposed to unschooling say it doesn't work, that this family is doing their children a disservice. That the children are not learning, that there is no proof they learned anthing in Europe etc. That's the conundrum-- the assumption that this approach will create lazy adults who play WOW all day and live in their parents basement.

 

I think children can learn a lot by being forced/encouraged. They might not remember it, but they can learn it. They might even come to enjoy and excell at it. I don't know how many ways I can say there are various paths. I can say I reject some paths for my family, but that doesn't make your path wrong, although you're reading that into my post. Stop doing that, ok. :)

 

I am going to take an example of doing something different, and having it be fine for your family but totally wrong for my family and my way of looking at the world.

 

So try to read this as gently as I am trying to say it:

 

I saw Susan's video about quiet time/nap time in her home. At first, I was horrified by the degree which she controlled the children, and how they had absoltuely no say in being put in their rooms for two hours a day for all those years, and at the ages her older sons are. I was floored. I read about it her book, but seeing it; her asking her dd if she could come out of her room...that whole dialogue was painful for me to hear. (And yes I know Susan joked she could come out to go to the bathroom. I never thought she couldn't lol )

 

I would *never* feel comfortable doing that. BUT WAIT! Don't hang me yet.

 

I thought about it for two seconds. I realized that it was right for her. For her family. That her children are loving, intelligent, creative--and from what I have read about conferences--the sibs get a long well with each other, and are supportive. Exactly as mine do/are.

 

Our children are similar ages. We got to the same place. We got there being the kind of parent that was most authentic to us. Susan does things her way, the way that feels right to her, and I do what feels right to me. It's that simple.

 

The things is, I can see this about most schoolers; their kids are bright and eager. Yet this thread doesn't show me that schoolers believe those of us who are relaxed can get to this same place of healthy, eager, intelligent children who enjoy their families and want to learn.

 

I share my family here, not to say we are doing better...I share to show that these notions that relaxed, democractic families someone have children picking their noses rather than learning French, simply because we don't go about hsing in the same way as the majority fo hsers. You are the hs maintream: people on the unschooling spectrum represent a tiny segment of the hsing population.

 

I think that we do have a lot of things in common but I do recognize that there are some pretty major differences in how we approach parenting and homeschooling. One of our best homeschool friends uses a child-led approach. We love to get together with them. They have wonderul, not perfect children who have many interests in common with us.

 

But we recognize that we have very different philosophies and it does influence certain things.

 

1. I cannot invite them to anything with a theme: ie. a game night. I did that once and it was a disaster because half of her kids decided that they didn't want to play games at all. We had a ton of games out for people to choose from but her kids were bored. They weren't a nuisance per se since they are well-behaved but it did affect the enjoyment of those playing the games to see them sitting around bored.

 

2. We do very well with open-ended field trips like a day at the zoo. Great fun!

 

3. We cannot count on them to do what they say they will do. We've had numerous times when my kids have been excited when one of these kids said "come over and we'll do x". Then we got there and they didn't want to do x anymore. Perhaps they think my kids are anal but it really upset them that they couldn't count on them following through on what they had planned. We take that into consideration when doing anything with them. We still have fun but we've had to change our expectations.

 

4. I find it easier to do things at their house - esp. if it involves food. The mom fixes a different food for each family member depending on what they want to eat. I just do not have the stamina or the desire to do that.

 

I'm sure if you asked my friend, she would have a list of things that are difficult for them to do with us. We've consciously chosen to find things that work well in both our worlds and have enjoyed our friendship for a number of years.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Perhaps they will choose a job where they can set their own hours?

I never had a set routine... I did have chores, but as long as I got them done, when I did them didn't matter. I stayed up as late as I wanted... if I stayed up too late and was tired the next day or overslept, it didn't hurt anyone, just annoyed me, and I quickly learned that.

I never had a problem holding a "real" job, and now at my job as a homeschooling mom, I set the hours.

 

I agree that this is possible, but from my experience the over-whelming majority of jobs require us to be there at certain times and days as well as do things that we may not want to particularly do. I am just saying that it is helpful to have some sort of routine and responsibilities for all of us. Now in regards to routine, we may start school at 8am, 9am, 10 am, 11 am, or sometimes even in the afternoon;) But we still get our lessons done in the long run for the school year. I also try to give ds choices as to which subject to do first and for exploring things that he finds interesting. We still cover the 3 R's as well as history, science, foreign language, art, and music though. Of course, I try to be creative and pay attention to my ds's needs and desires.

 

I also believe that desire is a big motivator and that people can and do change careers. I just want ds to be prepared for the possible choices he may make and tom open as many doors as possible for him. I have heard of students being shut out from engineering as a choice since they were not proficient in math. I still believe that many skills and knowledge bases can take quite a bit of time. Therefore, I fervently believe that kids should have at the very least the 3 R's so as to open as many doors as possible:) My main responses come from what I have read on unschooling message boards where people were espousing very radical unschooling and no rules applied. Unfortunately, IMHO not every kid left to his own devices will become responsible and so on and so forth. Not every kid will want to learn math or write or read. What do you do then?

[Rosy]

You may have a paradigm, but I don't. I think what works in your family, works in your family. People opposed to unschooling say it doesn't work; that this family is doing their children a disservice. That the children are not learning, that there is no proof they learned anthing in Europe etc. That's the conundrum-- the assumption that this approach will create lazy adults who play WOW all day and live in their parents basement.

 

I think children can learn a lot by being forced/encouraged. They might not remember it, but they can learn it. They might even come to enjoy and excell at it. I don't know how many ways I can say there are various paths. I can say I reject some paths for my family, but that doesn't make your path wrong, although you're reading that into my post. Stop doing that, ok. :)

 

The paradigm I was refering to was that you seemed to see things as either forced or child-led. I don't think I was reading anything into your post--you were talking about forcing kids to learn and how it's a waste of time. I haven't made any criticisms of unschooling, except that I can't assume that my kids will gain the skills they need when they are motivated to learn them. I have been critical of GMA's shoddy journalism and defending the family they interviewed.

 

Maybe I've come across more defensive than I've intended to. I never meant to say there's anything wrong with unschooling, just that I can't see it working for me and my family. :)

[angela in ohio]

I don't think we are talking about opposites here - drudgery in classical education versus delight of unschooling. We have a lot of delight in our classical education and if we didn't we might keep looking, but most of our days are happy, productive, with my son wanting to learn more.

 

I agree. As much as any parent would like to think that there is a certain formula for raising a child who thrives on learning, it just isn't true. I know unschooling kids who hate everything and refuse to learn anything, just as I know kids whose parents have done school-at-home who are the same, and I know all sorts in between. Likewise, I know my dc adore learning anything, and we have rigorously classically homeschooled, and I know a young man and woman who love to learn, and they were unschooled. I even know (gasp) public schooled kids who love to learn. So much more depends on the parent's attitudes, the child's environment, and the child's personality rather than homeschooling style.

[LibraryLover]

No.

 

I did not say it was a waste of time. If I said that, I would say that I waste some of my own time with kids, and I do not. (Although I do not force). I said it can be a waste of time. You are commenting on what you assume I'm saying. I can tell you have only skimmed my posts, and are pulling words and ideas out of context. I've done that at times, esp with long threads. ;)

 

Look, I can see you are really angry at the family on GMA and about unschooling , in general. ( I might be angry too, if I knew as you do, 15 yr olds who are unable to read). You fear that people will get your hard work confused with *those people*. It may be of no consequence, but i think most people 'out there' won't get unschoolers confused with those hschoolers who are doing formal curric. I don't know anyone who doesn't know that hsers are the ones who win spelling bees and such.

 

 

The paradigm I was refering to was that you seemed to see things as either forced or child-led. I don't think I was reading anything into your post--you were talking about forcing kids to learn and how it's a waste of time. I haven't made any criticisms of unschooling, except that I can't assume that my kids will gain the skills they need when they are motivated to learn them. I have been critical of GMA's shoddy journalism and defending the family they interviewed.

 

Maybe I've come across more defensive than I've intended to. I never meant to say there's anything wrong with unschooling, just that I can't see it working for me and my family. :)

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[LibraryLover]

No way! LOL You do not know schooled young people who love to learn!

 

It's fact that kids who go to school who cannot write well , or read anything other than Harry Potter! They are little robots who hang out at the mall and harass old ladies and bully little kids!

 

Don't go telling lies and making stuff up.

 

 

 

I agree. As much as any parent would like to think that there is a certain formula for raising a child who thrives on learning, it just isn't true. I know unschooling kids who hate everything and refuse to learn anything, just as I know kids whose parents have done school-at-home who are the same, and I know all sorts in between. Likewise, I know my dc adore learning anything, and we have rigorously classically homeschooled, and I know a young man and woman who love to learn, and they were unschooled. I even know (gasp) public schooled kids who love to learn. So much more depends on the parent's attitudes, the child's environment, and the child's personality rather than homeschooling style.

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Rosy]

No.

 

I did not say it was a waste of time. If I said that, I would say that I waste some of my own time with kids, and I do not. (Although I do not force). I said it can be a waste of time. You are commenting on what you assume I'm saying. I can tell you have only skimmed my posts, and are pulling words and ideas out of context. I've done that at times, esp with long threads. ;)

 

Look, I can see you are really angry at the family on GMA and about unschooling , in general. ( I might be angry too, if I knew as you do, 15 yr olds who are unable to read). You fear that people will get your hard work confused with *those people*. It may be of no consequence, but i think most people 'out there' won't get unschoolers confused with those hschoolers who are doing formal curric. I don't know anyone who doesn't know that hsers are the ones who win spelling bees and such.

 

Apparently you have me confused with someone else. I am not angry at the family on GMA at all--actually, I have been defending them. I do resent the negative spin put on the interview by GMA and how that causes homeschoolers to be perceived by non- or anti-homeschoolers. But my being unwilling to unschool and my assessment of why I don't see it working for my family should not be perceived as anger.

 

You are not alone in thinking that unless something is forced, it won't happen. I know that is not true. Plus, you can't force a child to want anything. You can make him do grammar, and you can make him do Latin. You can't make him remember it past a test, or like it. Sometimes it happens, often it does not. We see that all the time on the boards; parents who are doing all the 'right' things, trying curric after curric, and kids still don't get it, or get it and don't care about it, and avoid it and whine about it.

 

That is a lot of wasted time.

 

These are your words. Apparently I have misunderstood your intention? Not because I am skimming, there are some posts I have skimmed, but not yours.

 

Maybe you have me confused with someone else. I don't know any 15 year olds who can't read.

[LibraryLover]

I did say:

 

"You are not alone in thinking that unless something is forced, it won't happen. I know that is not true. Plus, you can't force a child to want anything. You can make him do grammar, and you can make him do Latin. You can't make him remember it past a test, or like it. Sometimes it happens, often it does not. We see that all the time on the boards; parents who are doing all the 'right' things, trying curric after curric, and kids still don't get it, or get it and don't care about it, and avoid it and whine about it.

 

That is a lot of wasted time".

 

 

If you do all that and your child gets it, loves it, and retains it past the test, you've not wasted your time, right? Did you read the 'sometimes it happens, and sometimes it doesn't" part?

 

What exatcly are you saying that I am not? That you can force a love of something? That unless you force something, a child won't find a love of something?

 

As far as the 15 yr olds not learning to read, I thought it was you in another thread. Obviously I skimmed the author of that. lol

 

ETA: It was another poster with flower name-- Daisy. :) And I did get your posts confused.

 

 

 

Apparently you have me confused with someone else. I am not angry at the family on GMA at all--actually, I have been defending them. I do resent the negative spin put on the interview by GMA and how that causes homeschoolers to be perceived by non- or anti-homeschoolers. But my being unwilling to unschool and my assessment of why I don't see it working for my family should not be perceived as anger.

 

 

 

These are your words. Apparently I have misunderstood your intention? Not because I am skimming, there are some posts I have skimmed, but not yours.

 

Maybe you have me confused with someone else. I don't know any 15 year olds who can't read.

Edited April 21, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Night Elf]

When they were little, were you concerned about the formation of their character while you were not forcing/coercing? Did you always trust they would grow up to share in responsibilities around the house, or were you worried they would kick back and eat bonbons while you vacuumed under their feet? I guess...did you always trust yourself and your methods?

 

I'm not the person these questions are directed to, but I thought I'd answer as well. I worried more about forcing/coercing, not the other way around. I didn't want to step on their natural ability to grow and learn. They've done great. They've been helping around the house since they were old enough to mimic me. They've grown into helpful, responsible teenagers. They do things around the house just because they see something needs to be done. I rarely have to ask.

 

I didn't trust me or any methods. I trust my children.

 

I agree with my bumper stickers that say, Children learn respect by example, and Children behave as well as they are treated.

[Rosy]

What exatly are you saying that I am not? That you can force a love of something? That unless you force something, a child won't find a love of something?

 

I think all of this started when I said this on page 9:

I agree with that, which is why I could never fully unschool my kids. I suppose I could if they were independently motivated to learn the skill subjects. Desire alone is not enough to educate someone.

 

After that you brought up intrinsic motivation, etc.

 

I know this is personal for you, and that you have discussions going with other people on this issue. I don't intend to add to your frustration. I do see the merits in delight-directed learning and seek to incorporate it into my schooling whenever possible. However you've done things, it sounds like your children are delightful and well-educated.

[LibraryLover]

I think all of this started when I said this on page 9:

 

 

After that you brought up intrinsic motivation, etc.

 

I know this is personal for you, and that you have discussions going with other people on this issue. I don't intend to add to your frustration. I do see the merits in delight-directed learning and seek to incorporate it into my schooling whenever possible. However you've done things, it sounds like your children are delightful and well-educated.

 

 

I am not a radical unschooler. I don't think one can force intrinsic motivation. I do think it's intrinsic motivation that drives good work.

 

I am not frustrated. This is fun! My kids are engaged-- they are making dinner, even, and I get to putz around yammering with all of you. I've taught my kids things, although I don't force or punish...maybe that's why I am coming across as a radical unschooler. Believe me, a good friend of mine, who is a radical unschooler, knows. (Although her child is studying abroad currently...with textbooks. lol) One never knows where relaxed schooling or even Radical Schooling can take our familes.

 

What I don't feel is threatned or worried about what radical unschoolers do. Or that RUs of 6 yr olds aren't teaching their kids to read with formal curric. I do feel a little bummed that GMA took 2 nice kids and set them up to the point where adults feel ok saying cruel things about them in public forums, simply because their families tried to share their personal stories in an imperfect medium. (But aren't they all?) I believe that everyone gets to choose for their own families, and that each caring family has their own particular path that works for them.

 

My kids are pitas sometimes, but only one admits to actually wanting to be a lawyer. ;) I just shelled out a bunch of money so he can take the LSAT prep course, so I hope something comes of that (or maybe I don't). lol I actually think he would make an amazing screen writer, and it's hard for me to be super-encouraging of law school, but I am because I support my kids and their gifts. I am an imperfect mother, however, and a terrible Radical Unschooler.

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[angela in ohio]

No way! LOL You do not know schooled young people who love to learn!

 

It's fact that kids who go to school who cannot write well , or read anything other than Harry Potter! They are little robots who hang out at the mall and harass old ladies and bully little kids!

 

Don't go telling lies and making stuff up.

 

:lol:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'll go one futher on you. The media isn't interested in pleasing viewers (in the sense of placating them), but they are very interested in increasing and retaining viewers and that is currently easiest done with programing that is tittilating and controversial (in the sense that it claims to present something that ought to be controversial).

 

A segment like this is in the same vein as a piece about the Octomom. It is voyeurism.

 

This is the reason that I don't bother with morning news shows, most cable news or even US news magazines. They are so devoid of real news or thoughtful analysis. We've been getting Time for about a year and I keep wondering when I'll get one that seems to have real news or insightful reporting. Not worth the airline miles I spent and certainly not worth using real money on.

[Night Elf]

I agree that this is possible, but from my experience the over-whelming majority of jobs require us to be there at certain times and days as well as do things that we may not want to particularly do.

 

And we all know lazy people who don't do what they are supposed to do. I can't imagine that all those people, or even the majority of them, were/are unschooled.

 

I don't think the things you've mentioned above need to be practiced in order to do them well. Do you really think that if you don't make your children wake up at 7:00am every morning that they will never be able to do so? When I worked, I didn't wake up at 5:30am because I was taught to do it in childhood. I woke up because I had a job to go to. If I didn't do my job, I didn't get paid. It's a natural consequence.

 

When I was in college, the earliest classes were always the last to be filled. I knew students who flat out refused to take any class before 12noon. I *loved* early classes because there was no competition for them! Some of these people didn't like taking early classes because they spent years having to wake up to go to school. In college, they had a choice and they chose to take afternoon classes. By the argument of having to wake up early in order to hold a job, these kids in college would have lost the ability to wake up early and would have a difficult time getting and holding down a job. That would make an interesting poll on this forum. :tongue_smilie:

 

Society has rules, regardless of what society/culture it is. We learn them as we grow up. Just because I allow my children to set their own bedtimes and mealtimes, doesn't mean I allow or encourage them to be lazy or be criminals, or any of the other things that unschoolers are accused of doing to their children. It's just so bizarre to throw such extremes to prove a point. Basically, I figure that if extremes have to be used to prove a point, that point isn't very sharp to begin with.

[LibraryLover]

LOL I can't say that any of the slackers I know were unschooled. I am not worried. At all.

 

My youngest has never stepped foot into a school. She goes to bed late sometimes, sleeps late. However, when we have activites, or Drs appt's etc., she is up, hustling, even packing snacks in her ballet bag, just in case. Once we had a flat tire and she pulled out her knitting. We were not supposed to be gone long, but she said "I am always prepared. You never know". It's also why she carries a drawing pad and book everywhere. Because you never know, yk? ;) When she has a class she has to be at, or it's library day etc., she is up with the birds.

 

She also has chosen 3 summer programs that are taking place at a private school: Theater Arts, Ancient Rome, and Creative Writing.

 

She also never starts a project she doesn't finish. My 17 yr old dd is similar, and my 16 yr old son is not having issues following sometimes inane school rules. He wonders why anyone has to tell kids to wear clothing so their underwear of bum cracks aren't showing.

 

And we all know lazy people who don't do what they are supposed to do. I can't imagine that all those people, or even the majority of them, were/are unschooled.

 

I don't think the things you've mentioned above need to be practiced in order to do them well. Do you really think that if you don't make your children wake up at 7:00am every morning that they will never be able to do so? When I worked, I didn't wake up at 5:30am because I was taught to do it in childhood. I woke up because I had a job to go to. If I didn't do my job, I didn't get paid. It's a natural consequence.

 

When I was in college, the earliest classes were always the last to be filled. I knew students who flat out refused to take any class before 12noon. I *loved* early classes because there was no competition for them! Some of these people didn't like taking early classes because they spent years having to wake up to go to school. In college, they had a choice and they chose to take afternoon classes. By the argument of having to wake up early in order to hold a job, these kids in college would have lost the ability to wake up early and would have a difficult time getting and holding down a job. That would make an interesting poll on this forum. :tongue_smilie:

 

Society has rules, regardless of what society/culture it is. We learn them as we grow up. Just because I allow my children to set their own bedtimes and mealtimes, doesn't mean I allow or encourage them to be lazy or be criminals, or any of the other things that unschoolers are accused of doing to their children. It's just so bizarre to throw such extremes to prove a point. Basically, I figure that if extremes have to be used to prove a point, that point isn't very sharp to begin with.

Edited April 20, 2010 by LibraryLover

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

And we all know lazy people who don't do what they are supposed to do. I can't imagine that all those people, or even the majority of them, were/are unschooled.

 

I don't think the things you've mentioned above need to be practiced in order to do them well. Do you really think that if you don't make your children wake up at 7:00am every morning that they will never be able to do so? When I worked, I didn't wake up at 5:30am because I was taught to do it in childhood. I woke up because I had a job to go to. If I didn't do my job, I didn't get paid. It's a natural consequence.

 

When I was in college, the earliest classes were always the last to be filled. I knew students who flat out refused to take any class before 12noon. I *loved* early classes because there was no competition for them! Some of these people didn't like taking early classes because they spent years having to wake up to go to school. In college, they had a choice and they chose to take afternoon classes. By the argument of having to wake up early in order to hold a job, these kids in college would have lost the ability to wake up early and would have a difficult time getting and holding down a job. That would make an interesting poll on this forum. :tongue_smilie:

 

Society has rules, regardless of what society/culture it is. We learn them as we grow up. Just because I allow my children to set their own bedtimes and mealtimes, doesn't mean I allow or encourage them to be lazy or be criminals, or any of the other things that unschoolers are accused of doing to their children. It's just so bizarre to throw such extremes to prove a point. Basically, I figure that if extremes have to be used to prove a point, that point isn't very sharp to begin with.

 

:iagree: My responses have more to do with the posts that I have seen over and over again on unschooling message boards that do take it to an extreme. They made it very clear that it is ok if the kids, even very young kids, stay up till 3am or 4am and sleep till afternoon. They made it very clear that it is ok to play videos or watch TV all.day.long. They made it very clear that it was wrong to set any limits. They made it very clear that it was OK if their kids never wanted to read or compute. These sort of extremes I do disagree with. Of course, I would think that these radical unschoolers are an extreme of unschooling:) I also happen to like many of the ideas of unschooling such as child led learning but within reason IMO.

 

I have also met some who routinely sleep till 3pm or 4pm and let the kids do whatever and fend for themselves even at young ages. I think some behaviors can become a bad habits and habits are very hard to change IMO. I know this from personal experience;). I have also worked with young adults who are 20-30 years younger than me, and it often seems a lot of them do not have a strong work ethic and have trouble with being late, following instructions, and showing up for work. Of course, this is more a societal and parenting problem IMO. Also, as you said there are plenty of lazy people and I am sure they come in all ages and that most of them were not unschooled. I am also certain that there are plenty of young adults who do have a strong work ethic as well.

 

OTOH, my family certainly is not run in a regimented way to say the least. There is flexibility in bedtime within reason for us. My ds goes to bed usually between 9 pm to 10pm or sometimes even 11pm or 12am depending on the circumstances.We get up generally between 8am and 9 am, but this can vary from 7am till 10 am on occasion. School starts anywhere between 8am till 11am or even 2pm till 4pm. We do have some routine (not carved in stone) though and we do get work done and we play.

 

My 2 cents:)

Edited April 20, 2010 by priscilla

[LibraryLover]

The loudest don't often represent the experience or lives of the majority, ime. Don't we discuss how not all conservative hsing Christians use tubing to beat their children; that people who do are not representative of the majority of Christian hsers? I think this is that. ;)

 

There are always going to be people who take certain ideas to the next level and then the next. We can't even know how it all plays out behind closed doors. Sometimes families, moms, might not admit that they cried or yelled on some of the nights their 18 month olds would not go to sleep until 3 or 4 am.

 

I've seen some of those discussions turn into helpful ways of noticing when small children are starting to tire, and how we can assist them in relaxing and falling asleep, for example. Not all people think it's OK to watch an obvioulsy tired tot run himself ragged into a crying mess while the parents stand by and watch. If one does, they can call it radical unschooling, but in reality, it's just cruel.

 

Extreme examples play great on TV and the interent, however.

 

 

:iagree: My responses have more to do with the posts that I have seen over and over again on unschooling message boards that do take it to an extreme. They made it very clear that it is ok if the kids, even very young kids, stay up till 3am or 4am and sleep till afternoon. They made it very clear that it is ok to play videos or watch TV all.day.long. They made it very clear that it was wrong to set any limits. They made it very clear that it was OK if their kids never wanted to read or compute. These sort of extremes I do disagree with. Of course, I would think that these radical unschoolers are an extreme of unschooling:) I also happen to like many of the ideas of unschooling such as child led learning but within reason IMO.

 

I have also met some who routinely sleep till 3pm or 4pm and let the kids do whatever and fend for themselves even at young ages. I think some behaviors can become a bad habits and habits are very hard to change IMO. I know this from personal experience;). I have also worked with young adults who are 20-30 years younger than me, and it often seems a lot of them do not have a strong work ethic and have trouble with being late, following instructions, and showing up for work. Of course, this is more a societal and parenting problem IMO. Also, as you said there are plenty of lazy people and I am sure they come in all ages and that most of them were not unschooled. I am also certain that there are plenty of young adults who do have a strong work ethic as well.

 

OTOH, my family certainly is not run in a regimented way to say the least. There is flexibility in bedtime within reason for us. My ds goes to bed usually between 9 pm to 10pm or sometimes even 11pm or 12am depending on the circumstances.We get up generally between 8am and 9 am, but this can vary from 7am till 10 am on occasion. School starts anywhere between 8am till 11am or even 2pm till 4pm. We do have some routine (not carved in stone) though and we do get work done and we play.

 

My 2 cents:)

[Guest Cindie2dds]

The part that bothered me was the follow-up interview. The "expert" on home schooling basically classified all of us as either "doing school at home with a box curriculum" or "unschooled." From all the posts I've seen in the last year here, I would say that the vast majority of us are not doing "school at home" at all, even if we used a curriculum, in whole or tweaked. He seemed rather ignorant for an expert in home schooling. Just my .02, whatever that's worth. ;)

[LibraryLover]

I have heard Pat speak, and he is very open to the unschooling spectrum and it's families. He tried to cram what he could in his fast seconds on live TV. I would be careful in thinking that is all he has to say on the topic of unschooling and unschoolers. He's a very open and thoughftul person. Pat does not need me to tell you he is not ignorant, however. :)

 

The part that bothered me was the follow-up interview. The "expert" on home schooling basically classified all of us as either "doing school at home with a box curriculum" or "unschooled." From all the posts I've seen in the last year here, I would say that the vast majority of us are not doing "school at home" at all, even if we used a curriculum, in whole or tweaked. He seemed rather ignorant for an expert in home schooling. Just my .02, whatever that's worth. ;)

[Guest SouthernSahm]

What??!!!

Edited April 21, 2010 by SouthernSahm
wrong reply

[Guest SouthernSahm]

My letter to the GMA editors:

 

Shame on you, GMA! Most homeschoolers are more competent than this example. We're involved in numerous weekly community activities, are intelligent(and intelligible), well-read, well-rounded, and are thriving in our learning environment. That clip was not unschooling--that was unPARENTING. Put a little more research into it next time, and not show only the situations that fit your agenda. Would you put the same spin on a public school classroom where the teacher exhibits gross neglect and indifference? No, that would be written off as an isolated incident not representative of all public schools. BTW, that seemed like total baiting & exploitation when asking the children, "do you ever miss or regret going to "normal school" and "isn't that what school is about, being exposed?" Those are valid questions but your implications were clear. I

get a mental picture of you lurking outside a school in a trench coat wielding candy.

Show a little less ignorance.