State U versus LAC

[Gwen in VA]

Ds has a full-ride to a top-20 LAC. FULL-RIDE! :001_smile: But there's a catch -- ds also has a full-tuition scholarship to a top-75 State U (with Honors College).

 

He prefers the State U. He wants the larger size, access to more research, and what he feels is a stronger program for his desired major (economics).

 

Our older dd is already at the LAC and having a wonderful time -- profs who know her, help her, encourage her. A prof lined up an absolutely incredible internship for her this summer -- and she is only a freshman! I love the LAC and the individual attention. It even has a debate team, which State U does not. (Ds is passionate about debate.)

 

I do agree with ds, though, that the econ program could be stronger....

 

This is ds's decision. But I would love any thoughts folks have -- his preference for Sate U makes no sense to me!

 

Do you think he is out of his mind, or is there a reasonable argument for attending state U's (since money is not a factor)?

[Moira in MA]

Gwen

 

It's a great problem to have. Congratulations to you and your son.

 

Has he spent time at both locations? Even, if he has, visiting again should help him make a more informed decision.

 

Also, a unstated factor in his preference may be that he'll be making his own mark at the State U. rather than following his big sister.

 

Decision, decisions.

[percytruffle]

Well, I can see where he would gravitate toward the school with the stronger program, but how much better is it? It seems, by what you've said about your dd, that the other choice might afford him more opportunities due to the individual attention. Also, is the four year degree a jumping off point for ds? If so, the strength of the program may not be the deciding factor, but the transferability and connections he can make could be.

 

All that said, if it was my ds I'd present him with all the facts and have him discuss it at length (transfer history for the school, percent of students who are now employed in their field of study, etc), which I'm sure you are, and then let him make the decision. Sometimes a gut reaction to a certain school is just as important as the logic of the decision. There is certainly for many an intangible "just has to feel right" aspect to choosing a school experience. Know what I mean?

 

Best of luck in helping him make such a wonderful decision!

[Sandra in NC]

Has he determined how many foreign teachers are in the econ dept of the state university? I went to a state univ. where the econ dept. was full of foreign teachers with thick, thick, accents. It makes learning difficult.

[Gwen in VA]

Thanks! All good points -- they will help add some specific points to our discussions!

 

Somehow in retrospect my dd's college decision seemed so obvious -- and by April 1 she was down to considering only two schools.

 

Oh well.....

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Ds has a full-ride to a top-20 LAC. FULL-RIDE! :001_smile: But there's a catch -- ds also has a full-tuition scholarship to a top-75 State U (with Honors College).

 

Do you think he is out of his mind, or is there a reasonable argument for attending state U's (since money is not a factor)?

 

Oooh, you're not going to tell us the schools, are you? Because that would definitely influence my answer.

 

In VA, it's harder to know, you know? If you were Gwen in TN, it would be a slightly easier call. :-)

[Gwen in VA]

Schools in question -- Washington & Lee vs UPitt

 

(I think ds is probably the first senior ever to sit and have those two as his top picks -- out of a good field of schools!)

[Samuel]

Just browsing the sites, the department at Pitt doesn't look that impressive for an R1, and indeed Pitts social science reputation is not stellar. The case can be made that the program at W & L is better--not being an economist, if I were looking in a politics dept on admitting someone who had done econ, I would by slightly more impressed with W & L at first glance. (did VUA get tossed? Their econ dept is pretty impressive--much more so than pitts.) In deciding I would ask about how many classes at Pitt are taught by grad students, where the schools have placed grads, and what kind of opportunities really exist for research. My impression of Pitt is that it lacks some of the advantages of big established school, particularly in terms of prestige. I'm curious why Pitt seems like a better dept?

 

But ultimately it all depends on how well he does, particularly in terms of grad school. A strong performance at either school will put him in a good position. There are certainly other intangibles (location, friends, etc etc) which can make a huge difference in success, and if on balance your son will be happier there then he should go. However, he should carefully consider why Pitt will make him happier, if on balance the academics are a wash.

[mom2abcd]

I don't have anything to add except Congratulations to your ds and to yourself as well! Are the full-ride scholarships based on ACT scores? High school GPA? I'm very happy for him!

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

In deciding I would ask about how many classes at Pitt are taught by grad students, where the schools have placed grads, and what kind of opportunities really exist for research. My impression of Pitt is that it lacks some of the advantages of big established school, particularly in terms of prestige. I'm curious why Pitt seems like a better dept?

 

 

 

Yes! This is SUCH a big deal to me -- how many of his classes until durn near his senior year will be in a huge room with 700 of his closest friends with a very bored grad student up front doing her duty? Where your exams are multiple guess, graded on a scantron? (Guess which life I'm living right now? It ain't a small liberal arts college, I'll tell you that much. Blech. Easy A's, mediocre learning. My son, on the other hand, writes essay exams for his sophomore level econ classes that are hand-graded and thoroughly critiqued, and he is pushed to greater excellence and understanding by his full-time professors. I think he has had one teacher this year who has an assistant professor title, and not a single grad student to be found.) He'll pass comps in his major(s) to graduate with his B.A. Big schools in general simply don't have that kind of time.

 

In a small liberal arts school, in your freshman year you can often go to a professor you admire and ask to be part of his/her research. In a big school? Not bloody likely.

 

Have him poke around the ctcl.com site and read the articles of big vs. intimate. Reading Loren Pope convinced my son so thoroughly that he didn't even apply to a big school.

 

And I have to tell you, my dh would give up a body part to be able to attend W&L. Congrats on his admissions and the money that followed.

[Sharon in MD]

I wish I could offer some kind of wisdom to the discussion, but I'm not there yet and will no doubt be fretting about the same kinds of decisions next year with our ds.

 

However, I would very much like to congratulate you and your son on his accomplishments! This is so super! You all must be bursting with happiness. :D:D:D

[Jane in NC]

Oh Gwen...to have such a problem! Congrats to you and your son.

 

And thank you for being a continual inspiration to the rest of us.

 

Jane

[Ms. Riding Hood]

Congrats from here, too. This is what so many of us look forward to!

 

One other poster mentioned dd already being at W&L possibly causing ds to shy away. I would think that, too. I've got a good friend who's eldest daughter went to a small Catholic college. She loved it and fit right in. DD #2 had made up her mind that she did not want to go there, since her big sis had made such a splash. However, after visiting and with many assurances from older sister that there was room for the both of them on campus, she chose to go there after all. In the end, she has loved it, found her own niche and rarely sees her sister. Now dd #3 has the same worries....

 

My point is that if this is a concern, maybe your dd could address the issue? Or maybe, as someone else said, another visit there (without dd as a tour guide), visiting the econ department/professors, checking out the dorms, eating the food (hey, that could be a factor!). Of course I have yet to do any of these things myself, so it's just worthless advice from someone who doesn't know. But based on my friend's experience.

[Gwen in VA]

I had never even considered that he might be intimidated by dd being on campus with her own group of friends and activities. Wow... That's why it is so wonderful to have people to bounce ideas around with.

 

I'll mention the possibility to dh.....

 

Yes, we are very blessed to have problems like these. I know some families with seniors right now where things aren't going very well......lots of fin aid problems and waitlist problems.

 

Thanks for all of your comments!

[ddandgirls]

My dw normally reads and responds to messages, but she thought I might have some useful input. Over the past ten years, I have worked closely with 26 private colleges in Virginia, Oregon, and North Carolina (I fundraise and manage collaborative academic programs among state consortia of private colleges and universities). I have worked closely with scores of college presidents, academic deans, admissions officers, faculty, and students.

 

FACTS ABOUT HIGHER EDUCATION: graduating from college--any college--is something that most people do not achieve. Only 27% of the U.S. population over the age of 18 has a 4-year degree (meaning almost 75% of the adult population does not have a college degree). There are just over 4,000 public and private college and universities in the U.S. (including 2-year and 4-year+ institutions) that enroll over 16 million students. Interestingly, 62% of all college students are female (I sometimes wonder what all the young men are doing). BTW--about 8-9% of the adult population has a master's degree and less than 2% has a Ph.D., JD, or MD.

 

ECONOMICS OF HIGHER EDUCATION: The average income of all adults with an undergraduate degree is about $54,000/year; average with a master's is around $75,000, Ph.D./JD/MD is about $100,000. Average for those with just a high school diploma is $36,000. Remember, these are averages for all working adults with these respective educational levels. Education pays...big time.

 

PRIVATE VS. PUBLIC: Of the 16 million plus students currently pursuing a college degree, roughly 75% are in public institutions and 25% are in privates. There are advantages to each. I personally attended a major public university in Virginia, so I have no personal allegiance to private colleges. However, after years of experience and observation of the traits of public and private colleges and universities--at a gut level--I personally believe that private colleges provide a far stronger academic experience at the undergraduate level BECAUSE THEY PROVIDE A PERSONALIZED EDUCATION EXPERIENCE that most publics (esp. mega-schools like Pitt) cannot provide.

 

As most privates average a faculty to student ratio of about 15:1 (and rarely have classes with more than 25 students; of the ten colleges that I represented in Oregon, not one of them had a single class with more than 50 students), the benefits of private colleges (regardless of the college) far exceed their public counterparts. I personally see small private colleges offering many of the same benefits as home schooling...personalized education via faculty who, for the most part, know and care about each and every student. Getting published and research is not typically the focus at private colleges...it's teaching and mentoring students.

 

So, a free ride to W&L...if he can attend the same school as his sister...it would be a loss to pass it up.

 

For those interested in private colleges, but concerned with the costs, keep in mind that private colleges proportionately will often offer more scholarship dollars than publics. The main competition of the private sector is the public sector. Thus, to be competitive, privates often offer more scholarships dollars to keep the final cost to families in line with public sector options.

 

However, back to the first point: only 27% of the U.S. population over the age of 18 has a 4-year degree. No matter what, he will be far ahead of most.

[Susan in IL]

I vote for the small LAC for many of the reasons that have already been mentioned. Ds is a sophomore at a small school (900 students) and he is doing a project with another student that most likely will be published and sold. The prof said the only names on it will be the two students (and possible royalties). I don't think he would have the same opportunity at a larger school.

 

None of his classes are taught by TAs, the largest has been 50, the smallest 7.

 

Good luck with the decision.

[Hilary]

Perhaps the location makes a difference???

 

Washington & Lee is pretty rural, isn't it? Is he more attracted to the idea of being in a big city? Also, could diversity be an issue? I have encouraged my DS to think about W&L, but he has the impression (which could be mistaken, as we've never visited and our impressions are formed by kids we know who've gone there, college guides, and threads at College Confidential) that the student body is primarily Southern, upper-middle class, and well-heeled.

 

My DD goes to a very small LAC, and I think it has been ideal for her. But I know kids who want a big-college, big-city atmosphere, and they thrive in it.

 

In any case, I agree with the other posters ... we won't waste much pity for your having to choose between two such tempting offers :) :) Congrats to your DS!

[Gwen in VA]

DDand girls --

 

Thank you SO much for taking the time to write that! A lot to think about. We are trying to influence ds in the LAC direction, and your writing makes us feel more confident that we are pushing him in the right direction.

 

Hilary --

 

Yes, the W&L population is primarily southern and wealthy. HOWEVER, there is LOTS of scholarship money that brings in different kids -- almost all of dd's friends are also on scholarship. Someone just gave $100million to the school, so now over 10% of the freshman class is on full-ride scholarship. That will hopefully bring in lots of different kids of kids.

 

My dd has made some great friends. The RUF community is VERY strong. She belongs to a great church -- I wish I could join (it's three hours away so a bit far for a Sunday morning drive!) And dd's profs have made some amazing connections for her. And the school has money grant money for research and internships coming out the kazoo. Honestily I don't see how she could have had a better freshman year! I strongly recommend W&L!!!

 

We had a LONG talk with ds a bit ago, and he is sounding more open to W&L than before. We also mentioned the caliber of student. I am well aware that SAT scores aren't everything, but the difference in scores between the schools is VERY striking, as is the % of the student body from the top 10% of their high school graduating class. We'll keep pushing.

 

Thanks again for all your words of wisdom!

[readwithem]

DUMB question here (I've got one hand all ready to slap my forehead) - what is a LAC? :) I know your dd is at W&L...

 

You've already gotten great advice. The only other thing I didn't see mentioned is the distance from home and how that might affect how often he got to come home. Oh and I would also consider the beauty of the campus, as that's what he'll see every day of his life.

 

Well now that my brain is working, maybe the proximity to arts, whether on campus or in a nearby (and easily accessible) larger city.

 

Oh and congrats to your ds :) and to YOU!! Today the RUF guy at Rice was ordained at our church- it was a very special service :)

[Staci in CT]

Gwen,

 

Congratulations!!! I am so very happy for you and ds. I know you worked very hard and long to make this happen. Your son is a wonderful teen and he'll do well wherever he ultimately goes.

 

Is he somewhat wary of the "heavy fraternity" scene? I think a large percentage of the kids at W&L join frats. Sometimes they have lots of parties and too many kids drink way too much. Maybe the thought of that isn't appealing?

 

Of course, your dd would know for certain if that was the case. W&L is viewed from the outside as a very social school, but with incredibly top notch academics. I have a feeling he'll end up there. I completely agree with the others who mentioned class sizes and teaching by grad students vs. profs.

 

Best of luck deciding. You are blessed!

 

Staci

[Hilary]

LAC = liberal arts college

 

But I'm scratching my head over RUF???

 

Gwen, did your DD join a sorority? There was a thread at College Confidential last spring (when we were making our decision ... sounds like my DD and yours could have been classmates) that made it sound as if Greek life was very important there ... I was worried about how rushing might affect my DD's self-confidence (which is not too high to begin with re: her social life).

 

I saw that W & L was getting a bunch of money for scholarships and I think that's wonderful ... you're right, they're bound to get more diversity when more can afford to get in.

[Anne/Ankara]

I wish I could contribute to this debate, since I find it so interesting, but unfortunately I have nothing to add! Living here in Pittsburgh for some 14 years now, we have had many events and workshops at Univ. Pitt, which is highly regarded by everyone I know. My dh works at CMU, next to Pitt, so we are a bit biased, but have nothing bad to say about Pitt at all!

 

It is nice to have the option of deciding between the two schools (W&L and Pitt) and I'm sure either decision would work out well. Good luck and let us know if there are specific questions that we could answer...

 

Congratulations to you ds!

 

Anne/PA

[Gwen in VA]

RUF = Reformed University Fellowship

 

No, dd isn't in a sorority. Two reasons -- 1) She didn't want to. 2) $3500 per year. Since she didn't want to, dh and I didn't have to form an opinion about either sorority life or the $3500.

 

W&L is #2 in % of guys in fraternities and #3 in % of girls in sororities, but despite that, dd has found many non-Greek friends.

 

After talking to ds this afternoon, ds says that he does not feel that W&L is "intellectual." But this is from a bright motivated kid who has found both of his classes at William & Mary to be "boring." (He aced one and is well on his way to getting a strong A in the other.) Somehow I don't think UPitt is the answer to a perceived lack of intellectual conversation at W&L!

 

Is there a college out there that is "really" intellectual? Okay, maybe Reed and St. Johns and U Chicago.....? He could go to U Dallas, which seems pretty intellectual, but he is concerned about size and distance and being in Dallas.

 

He will visit UVA on its Echols Scholars Day, and hopefully that will provide a different perspective.

[Staci in CT]

I think you said your ds wanted to major in econ (I could be wrong). U. Chicago has produced most of our country's greatest economists. Their faculty is top-notch. I think that should win if he is after the greatest intellectual economists. However, I don't know anything about their scholarships.

 

Staci

[Brenda in MA]

After talking to ds this afternoon, ds says that he does not feel that W&L is "intellectual." But this is from a bright motivated kid who has found both of his classes at William & Mary to be "boring." (He aced one and is well on his way to getting a strong A in the other.) Somehow I don't think UPitt is the answer to a perceived lack of intellectual conversation at W&L!

If your ds thinks he'd like a city locale -- Pittsburgh is a nice city, and the Pitt campus is right down Forbes Ave. from CMU. I believe that Pitt & CMU used to have an agreement in place where students from one school could take courses at the other. I don't know if that's still the case, but if so, it might open up more course options for your son.

 

Best wishes to all of you on the decision!

Brenda

[Anne/Ankara]

University of Chicago is definitely "intellectual," and really a powerhouse in many fields. We have a friend who studied history there, and chose the program over Yale and other ivy league choices, and felt the education was outstanding. He went on to a PhD from Columbia, and is now a tenured history professor at Iowa State...

 

Is Chicago still a possibility? That definitely would be outstanding!

[readwithem]

thanks:)

[Nan in Mass]

She definately got the better education, but there were some things I liked about mine, too (besides my husband being there, which is the reason I went).

 

I had lots of wonderful choices for classes outside my major. The variety was astounding. Most of them were offered every semester, so there was a good chance of fitting them into my schedule.

 

There were enough people that I had lots of choices for friends. Even if it was only a small percentage that wasn't partying, that small percentage contained lots of people.

 

Plenty of people were not in frats.

 

The range of clubs was astounding.

 

There were people from all over the world and all backgrounds, which was definately mind-expanding.

 

Being anonymous is rather nice, sometimes. It was a relief after the closeness of dorm living, and left me to get out of the classes what I wanted to sometimes, not just what someone else thought I ought to. I could take a class just for fun and not worry too much about the grade and nobody would notice.

 

Just in case you have to hunt for comfort because your son chose the big U...

-Nan

[Gwen in VA]

We still are waiting for U Chicago's final fin aid offer, but given the preliminary fin aid offer, we are not hopeful. It is frustrating -- ds would go there in a heartbeat.

 

If he went to U Chicago, he would probably graduate with about $50K in loans (about $30K as part of his official fin aid package and about $20K because we can't pay the out-of-pocket portion that U Chicago thinks we can!) And graduating with $50K in loans just isn't smart -- even from U Chicago! :glare:

 

Essentially we are wrestling with U Pitt, which ds is in love with. He doesn't feel that W&L is intellectual enough and he thinks that UPitt would be (?????) (?????) (?????)

 

Dh and I strongly want him to go to W&L.

 

As a back-up to W&L, I would accept him going to UVA, though he would probably need to graduate with a little bit in loans -- $5-10K. But I guess I just don't get UPitt when you have these other options.

[Gwen in VA]

Just to complicate life, ds just received word that he received the Chacellor's Scholarship from UPitt.

 

Choices are good, I guess. I'm feeling overwhelmed by choices.

 

The difficult thing is that UPitt wants to hear back from ds by April 11, BEFORE Echols Day at UVA or accepted students day at W&L. Aaargh!

 

I woke up with a headache; it just got considerably worse! :glare::glare:

 

I do thank God for choices and I pray that God will show us the way He wants my son to go -- quickly!

[Hilary]

Gwen, I'm curious as to what he's basing his assessments on? I'm sure that he's gotten a very good feel for W & L, since his sister goes there. I'm sure he's visited the campus pretty often, and he's been able to size up the "fit" pretty well. But his impressions of U Pitt are based on what? How much time has he spent there? Who has he met?

 

I'm not sure how I'd react, as a parent, in the same situation. My gut feeling is that if you trust his judgement, if he doesn't have a history of making impulsive decisions that he later regrets, I wouldn't press him too hard to go somewhere that you think is "better" ... even if you don't quite understand WHY he feels a certain way. Blaise Pascal says, "The heart has its reasons, that reason cannot know" ... Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point. I have used this verse many times in my life to justify choices that didn't seem logical, but seemed "right" to me :) ... like getting engaged to my DH after we'd only known each other two months, or adopting our fourth cat :) Sometimes we just have a inexplicable, illogical attraction or dislike toward something or someone, and even though it's hard to explain why we feel that way, all attempts of logical persuasion to make us change our minds don't work ... and they may end up backfiring. I would be worried that if I sent my child off to a college that he or she was not very enthusiastic about, a self-fulfilling prophecy would occur ... if they don't think they're going to like it, they may well end up NOT liking it, even if there is no good basis for their feelings.

[readwithem]

Oh Gwen I hear your mama heart. This sounds like a bad Aprils Fools joke doesn't it?

 

First I would take a deep breath and count your blessings :) remember that he does have two very good offers.

 

As I said on another thread earlier, I've never graduated a student. But we did this "trick" when I was a headhunter and a client had a very good offer and we wanted it "matched" by another more favorable company.

 

So - could he go to U of Chicago and say he wants to attend, he's ready to commit but there's one thing that is stopping him, and if they could match the $$ that W&L (or Pitt or both) is offering, he'd be there in a heartbeat.

 

Again I haven't done this so I don't know whether this affects things down the track. I'm just throwing it out as a possible suggestion.

 

Hugs and prayers coming your way :)

[Anne/Ankara]

Gwen, you may have seen some of these summer internship possibilities at Univ. of Pittsburgh, but just wanted to share the links. Some of them look very interesting-- like study abroad, and such...

 

In fact, they even have several high school level paid summer programs (but these are in the sciences) that we are investigating-- in cancer research, tissue engineering, various biology programs. Just might show that a big public school does have some unique opportunities for its students... here are some for econ, international politics...

 

http://www.as.pitt.edu/undergraduate/experience/internships/paid.html

 

http://www.ucis.pitt.edu/euce/students/opportunities/Internships.html

 

 

http://www.pitt.edu/~filmst/undergrad/internships-options.html

 

http://www.as.pitt.edu/undergraduate/experience/summer-research.html

 

http://www.abroad.pitt.edu/pittinlondon/summer2008.html

[Sharon in MD]

:iagree: I haven't tried this either, but I would think it would be worth the effort??? What is the worst that could happen....no change.

 

We'll be praying for you for wisdom here.