maybe a "duh" question, but can someone tell me the point of literar terms?

[dancer67]

We are going to use MCT Grammar Town this year with my 6th grader, the whole package.

 

I have been on the fence as to whether or not to use Classics in the Classroom or Light Lit Grade 7. Or neither, and wait and get Teaching the Classics.(I think that might be to old for her?)

 

But, could someone please tell me what the point is of learning literary terms,(foreshadowing, climax, rise, fall, etc)? Is this REALLY important? If so, why?

 

Or is it MORE important, to just have your child read good literature, and have discussions?

 

One other embarrassing question, what is a "Socratic" discussion?

 

 

Okay, shrinking away of embarassment now.:confused:

[blessed2fosteradopt]

You're too funny and more than that braver than most who have probably been wanting to ask the same questions for a long time. :tongue_smilie:

[dancer67]

:lol:

 

I have been wanting to ask thess questions for a while.....AAACK:willy_nilly:

[HollyDay]

Okay, I've got a funny story on this one. Dd and I were finishing up some school work at a local coffee shop last year. We were doing Lightening Literature 7, I think it was Riki Tiki Tavi. Another homeschool family came in. They were a very conservative family with ankle length skirts, beehive hair, etc. So, here we are discussing foreshadowing, climax, resolution, etc. The mother of the other family comes over in a huff and fusses that we shouldn't be "discussin that type thing in public!" She actually said it was indecent! Fortunately, they walked out and I haven't run into them again. I confess it took me a while to catch her drift!

[dancer67]

Okay, I've got a funny story on this one. Dd and I were finishing up some school work at a local coffee shop last year. We were doing Lightening Literature 7, I think it was Riki Tiki Tavi. Another homeschool family came in. They were a very conservative family with ankle length skirts, beehive hair, etc. So, here we are discussing foreshadowing, climax, resolution, etc. The mother of the other family comes over in a huff and fusses that we shouldn't be "discussin that type thing in public!" She actually said it was indecent! Fortunately, they walked out and I haven't run into them again. I confess it took me a while to catch her drift!

 

:lol:

[angela in ohio]

Okay, I've got a funny story on this one. Dd and I were finishing up some school work at a local coffee shop last year. We were doing Lightening Literature 7, I think it was Riki Tiki Tavi. Another homeschool family came in. They were a very conservative family with ankle length skirts, beehive hair, etc. So, here we are discussing foreshadowing, climax, resolution, etc. The mother of the other family comes over in a huff and fusses that we shouldn't be "discussin that type thing in public!" She actually said it was indecent! Fortunately, they walked out and I haven't run into them again. I confess it took me a while to catch her drift!

 

Well, goodness, that's reason enough to do it right there! :tongue_smilie:

 

Why? Everything you want to talk to others about has a specialized vocabulary. If you want to teach math, you have to establish the terms "addition," "subtractions," etc. If you want to talk about gardening, you need to know what the words "compost," "annual," etc. mean. If you want to discuss books, you want to learn the specialized vocabulary known as literary terms. It's not just a 'school' thing, either. If you want to read a book review in the newspaper, and they say that the author makes excellent use of foreshadowing, and you don't know what that means, you are at a disadvantage.

 

If you want to have good discussions with your child about literature, literary terms will help. They are not something different. We've had fabulous discussions here when two of us disagree about what the climax or theme of a book is.

 

I'm supposed to be cleaning out the school room, and my five minute break is over, so I will leave Socratic discussion to later (or someone else.)

[dancer67]

Thanks Angela. I am just trying to determine if literary terms are very important and should not be skipped.

 

Hence my thoughts on lightning literature.

 

Or, just obtaining Classics in the Classroom with my MCT program.

[dancer67]

:lurk5:

[Capt_Uhura]

Classics in the Classroom is NOT going to help you with literary terms. Michael is more about Socratic Dialogue. If you want info on literary terms, the three I've used are Reading Strands, Teaching the Classics, and Deconstructing Penguins.

 

In fact, in Classics in the Classroom, Mr. Thompson has this to say about terms such as theme, climax, tragic flaw, conflict etc. "These form much of the specialized techniques of ones trade. And yet, there is a dissatisfaction that lurks in the reliance on these terms; rather than responding individually to each unique novel, we wind up applying the same thoughts to every novel. We sink into a vapid tedium of technique, rather than authentic response. Those literary terms, helpful though they be, are not what to do; reading the book is what to do."

 

And nope, your DD isn't too young for Teaching the Classics (TtC). He starts out using picture books for lit analysis. My favorite is A Bargain for Francis. Yes, an I Can Read Book. My boys (4th and 1st) had a fun time analyzing that one along with Mr. Andrews and filling out the chart. I've had a good discussion with my 1st grader over children books. TtC starts out simple and will last you until high school. If you want a flavor of TtC, check out his website and go to the downloads/audio link. For $5 you can download a few of his lectures and it will really give you a feel for it. If you're interested, I can post the titles of the ones I found most useful.

 

But from your questions, it sounds like Classics in the Classroom might help answer your questions but not if you just want something about literary techniques b/c it ain't in there.

[Capt_Uhura]

This might be helpful. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/what-is-literary-analysis-and-when-to-teach-it/

[DarlaS]

Someone here recommended a book called Figuratively Speaking, and my 12 yo is working his way through it. Next year, I will start it with my upcoming 5th grader.

 

It's a quick pass through for familiarity with the terms. (We're skipping the writing assignments). It has excellent examples from good literature. You could then decide if you wanted your dd to read any of the books (for fun). I'm considering it "PreLiterature".

 

Hey, if you can have PreAlgebra, why not PreLiterature? :D

[MerryAtHope]

We are going to use MCT Grammar Town this year with my 6th grader, the whole package.

 

I have been on the fence as to whether or not to use Classics in the Classroom or Light Lit Grade 7. Or neither, and wait and get Teaching the Classics.(I think that might be to old for her?)

 

But, could someone please tell me what the point is of learning literary terms,(foreshadowing, climax, rise, fall, etc)? Is this REALLY important? If so, why?

 

Or is it MORE important, to just have your child read good literature, and have discussions?

 

One other embarrassing question, what is a "Socratic" discussion?

 

 

Okay, shrinking away of embarassment now.:confused:

 

No need to be embarrassed! I think they are important because they give us a way to talk about a book on a higher level. Any college lit. class is going to use these terms (and most students will take at least one class). But on a personal level, I love to talk about them with my kids because it's a way for us to enjoy the genius of the author's work. As an example, we recently read the Wolves of Willoughby Chase. Now, we could have left that book and never talked about metaphors--but this book has a HUGE metaphor, and it would be sad to miss it. My kids loved the book even more after we discussed the nature metaphors in it. It was like discovering a secret passageway for them (and in a book that had a house with a secret passageway, it's just that much more fun). We could have discussed it without ever using the word "metaphor"--but as long as we're discussing metaphors, why not just talk about the name of what we're discussing?

 

We don't go into literary terms for every book we read, or even for most of them, but when an author is particularly masterful, I really can't help myself, LOL!

 

Merry :-)

[Capt_Uhura]

We also use these terms when discussing movies.

[dancer67]

Thank you! I will look into TtC, and the other suggestions mentioned as well.

[angela in ohio]

In fact, in Classics in the Classroom, Mr. Thompson has this to say about terms such as theme, climax, tragic flaw, conflict etc. "These form much of the specialized techniques of ones trade. And yet, there is a dissatisfaction that lurks in the reliance on these terms; rather than responding individually to each unique novel, we wind up applying the same thoughts to every novel. We sink into a vapid tedium of technique, rather than authentic response. Those literary terms, helpful though they be, are not what to do; reading the book is what to do."

 

I think we have to be careful to differentiate between inherent probems with a method and problems that can come with teachers poorly utilizing it. If a teacher relies only on a discussion of certain pat literary elements in each and every book discussed, that is a problem of poor teaching, not of literary elements in and of themselves. I think Mr. Thomas makes a generalization here and doesn't give English teachers much credit. :001_smile:

[Kirch]

My thinking is that it would be a lot easier to learn the terms and use them than to try to discuss those concepts without them. "The climax" is much simpler to say than, "this part to which everything else is leading, the most important part of the story . . ." It also makes it easier to compare separate pieces of literature. Those literary elements are the structure, the framework of literature, and any in-depth discussion of a work will touch on them. I'm sure you could have good discussions about the ideas without naming them, but it seems much simpler to go ahead and give the student the words to convey the ideas you'll be discussing.

[kalanamak]

 

But, could someone please tell me what the point is of learning literary terms,(foreshadowing, climax, rise, fall, etc)? Is this REALLY important? If so, why?

 

Or is it MORE important, to just have your child read good literature, and have discussions?

 

One other embarrassing question, what is a "Socratic" discussion?

.

 

http://www.garlikov.com/Soc_Meth.html

 

IMO, the literary terms are important for the discussion, to make the understanding of the piece AND the discussion about it more profound. It gives you the words to discuss it, and perhaps the words to think about what one might use if one writes something oneself!

[kalanamak]

So, here we are discussing foreshadowing, climax, resolution, etc. The mother of the other family comes over in a huff and fusses that we shouldn't be "discussin that type thing in public!" She actually said it was indecent! Fortunately, they walked out and I haven't run into them again. I confess it took me a while to catch her drift!

 

Clearly, despite the children, she is not getting her fair share!

[Celly B]

Knowledge of literary terms is important because literary analysis helps a student to go beyond the "what" of literature to "how" the author constructs a short story, novel, play, or poem. This knowledge helps a student appreciate the various methods an author uses to achieve a certain effect on the reader. I would emphasize literary analysis more at the high-school (rhetoric) level.

 

Although literary analysis is important, there is a danger in applying it to every single work read. Dissecting all the literature you read sometimes kills the joy of simply reading and enjoying a book that appeals to you.

 

You may find SWB's lecture on literary analysis helpful.

 

Socratic discussion is taken from Socrates' dialogue with his students. It emphasizes questioning of the student to lead them to a conclusion instead of lecturing them.

[HollyDay]

I used Figuratively Speaking and Poetry and Prose Toolbox this year. They are excellent references! I am very pleased to use these.

[angela in ohio]

Clearly, despite the children, she is not getting her fair share!

 

:lol:

[Capt_Uhura]

I think we have to be careful to differentiate between inherent probems with a method and problems that can come with teachers poorly utilizing it. If a teacher relies only on a discussion of certain pat literary elements in each and every book discussed, that is a problem of poor teaching, not of literary elements in and of themselves. I think Mr. Thomas makes a generalization here and doesn't give English teachers much credit. :001_smile:

 

Please don't assume anything about what I quoted from Mr. Thompson's book. That is such a small point in the whole book. I was simply trying to make a point to the OP that if she was looking for literary terms, Classics in the Classroom is not what she looking for. As for as her other questions, it may be just what she is looking for. It's been awhile since I've read Classics in the Classroom, but the sense that I got then was that traditional literary discussion has it's place, but to be careful not to end there. To talk to the students, engage in discussion, read the books aloud in class, allow the kids to question and discuss and see where they take a book.

[dragons in the flower bed]

But, could someone please tell me what the point is of learning literary terms,(foreshadowing, climax, rise, fall, etc)? Is this REALLY important? If so, why?

 

They help you talk about stories. You could say, "the part when it's exciting but not most exciting," or you could use the word, "rise."

 

Or is it MORE important, to just have your child read good literature, and have discussions?

 

I do think this is more important, but I think it'd be hard to have such discussions without the vocabulary to refer to the story. It would be possible, but you'd end up making up your own terms for all of these elements. Then you'd be at a loss when conversing with anyone besides your homeschool teacher.

 

One other embarrassing question, what is a "Socratic" discussion?

 

It's leading a conversation through questioning. In the example below the dad is being Socratic.

 

Kid: "I don't want you to get a toaster!"

Dad: "Why not?"

Kid: "Toasters are bad! They start fires!"

Dad: "What about when they heat up your food?"

Kid: "You could use a microwave to heat up food."

Dad: "If you had no other way to heat up your food, would toasters be good?"

Kid: "Well... maybe."

Dad: "So is a toaster bad?"

Kid: "I guess it depends on whether or not you need it."