Rough Handling from Scout Leader

[AuntPol]

We went on a campout with the cubs this weekend. While we were there, one of the kids in our pack fell and probably broke his wrist. He was taken to the hospital and I don't know the outcome. However, one of the scout leaders was very upset about this and he came back from the first aid station, he was gathering boys to go over safety rules. However, he was not doing it in a nice manner. He was yelling at them to come over and was very obviously upset. My son and another boy were playing when he came up and called them. They did come but were coming slowly (not far away at all) and talking to each other. My husband and I were calling to our son to pick up the speed. The Scout leader picks both boys up by the shirt and puts them on the platform and then pushes them over to the table where others are sitting and then proceeds to fuss at them all about running (none of these boys had been running or even present when accident happened). Half of the boys at the table were not even from our pack but were just playing cards with some of our guys.

 

My son does not know this man as he is not a Webelo Leader but someone who does pack stuff that we don't see often. (We took a year off scouts and this is first year back and only a month in). My son has Aspergers and one of his triggers is when he feels he is being unjustly punished so this could have expoded. My son had not been running at that time, at the time of the accident, or at anytime during the day. He was one of the few boys whose parents were actively watching their kids. We were not in the area at the time of the accident. I know he was upset as this was first time there has ever been an accident in our pack and having to deal with the parents of child, the paperwork, etc. Still, there was just no excuse for these boys to be treated that way or talked to that way.

 

 

I talked to one of the Webelos leaders first since the other child had been her son. She was not there when it happened but already knew so I assume her son or someone else told her. She had me talk to the pack leader and so I did. He said he would talk to the man when the man calmed down (apparantly he can sometimes be tempermental though this is first time I ever witnessed it in all our years of scouting). We left though (not because of that as we had to be up early the next morning to pick up our daughter) so I'm not sure what the outcome will be. I do no know whether my son will get an apology, if the man will actually be talked to or what.

[Kelli in TN]

My son was rough handled by a Boy Scout leader a few months ago. This was a very young leader, recent Eagle scout himself, who simply does not belong in leadership. He was a bully as a scout and he is a bully as a leader. We made a huge deal of it with my husband going so far as to say that if this young man ever touches our son again the police will be called. We were taken seriously because there were several BSA policies broken when this young man approached my son, alone, behind some buildings and out of sight of other leaders and boys, and physically picked him up and dragged him inside.

 

(My son was being a pill, but this still violates BSA policy)

 

I believe that if you checked into this further you would find that BSA policy was broken in this case as well. Those policies exist for a reason; the protection of boys.

[lgm]

Ouch. I wouldn't return until the man is removed from leadership and the leadership comes up with a policy for future outings that follows the Guide to Safe Scouting. What a poor example of emotional control and discipline.

 

Here's the link to the Guide for Safe Scouting:

http://www.scouting.org/training/youthprotection/cubscout.aspx

so you know what to look for as you follow the discussion at the next Pack Committee Meeting.

[fivetails]

Picked them up by the shirts & shoved them???

 

That wouldn't have ended well here. NOBODY manhandles my kids. :angry:

[Remudamom]

Uh uh. Too late now, but my vote would be for quick action, as in physical pain for anyone stupid enough to touch a kid that way.

 

Second option? Get in his face and let him know you're filing assault charges.

 

And he can be tempermental?? I'd make sure he knew how tempermental YOU can be.

[AuntPol]

My husband and I were not happy with it and well, I can be very tempermental. I just knew that a tempermental display on my part would not have helped the situation (too many kids, camping, people stressed about accident already). This one of reasons I did the chain of command thing instead of going to him directly as a conversation with an aggitated man and a mama bear would not have any fruitful outcome.

 

I am not a person who goes to extremes. I understand that he was upset and to my knowledge as never done anything like this but then again I don't know him that well as he normally does not directly work with the kids (he does the pack management stuff). My husband had just agreed to go to training to be a Webelo leader as they need one more for the first year Webelos to abide by the two deep rule (currently meeting with second year webelos to have adult accountability).

 

My son has Aspergers and occasionally he has to be restrained to keep from hurting himself or others (he sometimes runs aways and hides in conflicts). This was not a situation like that. Just two kids playing and having a good while being supervised by two parents (DH and I) and a man he doesn't know yelling for him to come to the table. I am proud that my son maintained though I could see him seething and on verge. I was able to get over to him and explain that I saw what happened, he had done nothing wrong, and I would talk to the other adults about it.

 

I am wondering if I should also speak with our chidren's pastor about this too. Our scouts meets at our church and our pastor is a leader for one of the younger dens. He was not at the camp out though and I am trying not to "gossip." Our church prefers that we only talk to people who are part of the problem or part of the solution and I don't know where the pastor would fit in this. I don't know if the leader in question goes to our church or not -some do and many do not.

[Mommyof4ks]

No excuse for that. period. Hopefully you get it resolved quickly so your son can continue to enjoy scouts.

 

I don't understand why he was so upset over the kiddo breaking his wrist. Accidents happen even when everyone is 'behaving'. He certainly should not have taken his frustration out on the other kids.

[Harriet Vane]

This is over-the-top totally inappropriate, and I would raise an unholy stink about it.

 

Appropriate consequences would include full apologies both to the troop and to the boys that were manhandled.

 

I also would insist on this man stepping down from leadership. Those in authority over children must be held to a higher standard, no exceptions.

[QueenCat]

The man who rough handled your son is in violation of BSA policy. If he is not removed from leadership by the Pack leader, the District Executive needs to be notified. Actually, he/she should be notified anyways. If not removed, a repeat of training required of all leaders and an apology are in order. When our kids were still pack age, our pack required every parent to do the leader training even if they weren't in leadership. Primarily so they would all be very familiar with BSA policy, and not just have read the little booklet inside the Scout books. As to your church sponsor, they do not get to revise BSA policy even if they sponsor the pack. However, if this same man works with kids at church, then notifying the pastor would be appropriate.

[OHGrandma]

I think you made a wise choice not to be confrontational at the time, it likely would have made a tense situation worse for everyone.

But, now is the time to escalate this. That behavior is not an appropriate model for young boys. Pushing, shoving, grabbing, yelling -- these are things you are trying to train the cub scouts NOT to do; you sure don't want an adult to do it! I think the least I'd expect is for the man to apologize to the pack for his behavior, and not an 'excuse' apology; I think it should be a description of what he did, an apology for doing it, and how he should have responded instead. No blaming his response on the boy that broke his wrist.

If this man is allowed to continue in leadership, I'd make sure I was around until I was sure someone else was partnering with him to be sure it never happened again.

[Elizabeth Conley]

Dear Aunt Pol,

 

Our son is also a Webelo, and I'm happy to say that both the den and the pack leader are awesome. They always seem to get things "just right".

 

Anyway, you and your husband were doing the right thing just by being there. With cub scouts, parents pretty much have to be there at all times. (That's our pack policy at any rate.) Since you and hubby are there to encourage your son to "get a move on", I don't see any need for anyone to manhandle him, except to keep him out of immediate danger.

 

Here's the hard part: I think you and your husband should probably talk directly with the problem leader ASAP. It's no fun, but that's what you're supposed to do. It's better if only one of you does this. I suggest it be your husband, but perhaps it should be you. You will know better than I which is most likely to work. Make sure you have a reasonable expectation of what the outcome of the discussion should be. I would stick to one issue. I would ask him not to grab or push my son again, except to protect him from immediate harm. If he agrees, then I would consider the issue closed. If he doesn't, I'd approach him with the company of another parent in the den, then another den leader who happened to witness the incident, then the pack leader. I know - what a pain!

 

Unfortunately, the kind of people who act out in the way this particular den leader did are also the type who tend to have a hard time contemplating the possibility that they should change their behavior. To them, this means admitting that they've done something wrong in the past, and the idea of conceding this, even to themselves, is terrifying. Sometimes the easiest way to get this personality type to adopt new behaviors is to suggest the new behavior without asking them to examine past behavior.

 

If you simply ask the miscreant to handle the situation "hands off" in the future, he may be so eager to avoid self-examination or making apologies that he'll readily agree to new behavior.

 

Here's your son's part: Tell your son that sometimes you just have to "roll with it". Many, many people in leadership positions are excessively dramatic. They tend to shout, bluster and generally act out fantasies of themselves as a "drill instructor" or "bad cop". As long as these leaders' melodramatics don't directly impact anyone's well-being, then it's best to just "go along to get along." A large percentage of people in the world think this "leadership style" is appropriate when interacting with boys and young men. Your son is going to encounter it again. He'll do better if he just shrugs it off. That's what most young men do.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Elizabeth Conley

[Jen in PA]

Picked them up by the shirts & shoved them???

 

That wouldn't have ended well here. NOBODY manhandles my kids. :angry:

 

:iagree:

[Janet in WA]

Just some thoughts to add to what the others have said:

 

First, I'm impressed at the way your son controlled his reaction to this (and the way you helped him do so). I'm sure his experiences in Scouting will go a long way toward helping him, even the unfortunate ones. Our adult Aspie son credits two experiences as the best things he did growing up: Youth Group and Boy Scouts.

 

Second, you have observed that one of the leaders of your Pack is not suited to direct leadership of the boys. He does not handle stressful situations well. Fine at work, not fine when working with youth. I would do what I could to make sure this fact doesn't escape the attention of anyone who has authority in your Pack. Make as much or as little noise about it as it takes.

 

ETA: Your pastor is your Pack's Chartered Organization head. It is his direct responsibility to approve the Pack's leadership. This IS his business, whether he understands his position or not.

 

Third, your Council (your Scout Executive) needs to know about this incident. They NEED to hear about it. It is your Scout Executive's job to deal with abuse issues and questionable leaders. You don't know the position this man holds in your Pack, but it's possible he is in a position to block communication about the incident with the Council if you leave it to your Pack leadership. You should put your report in writing and send it to your Scout Executive. Copy your DE with the letter if you want, but also make sure the communication goes to your Scout Executive. Don't trust the DE's judgment in handling this kind of thing.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Janet in WA

[swellmomma]

Can I ask why you did not step in immediately when you saw him grab your son? It sounds like you watched the whole thing unfold then went and spoke to others about it, but did not stop it from happening in the first place. I know from personal experience, that the person would not have had time to shove my son down to table because the moment he was grabbed I would be over there confronting the person that grabbed him.

 

That said, the leader in question needs to be removed from leadership HOWEVER, I doubt that will happen due to a lack of volunteers (again personal experience with a beaver leader breaking the law not just boy scout policy while on beaver camp and is STILL a leader). I hope you hear how they are going to resolve it soon.

[Elizabeth Conley]

Dear Swellmomma,

 

"Can I ask why you did not step in immediately when you saw him grab your son? It sounds like you watched the whole thing unfold then went and spoke to others about it..."

 

This is the sort of question that makes people feel defensive, even though I'm sure you don't mean to go on the attack.

 

The vast majority of people will not move a muscle to physically defend themselves, nor will they defend their nearest and dearest. As someone who will, you represent a minority of about 5% of humanity. Only with training, conditioning and the right set of circumstances will the other 95% take immediate, decisive action.

 

The tendency to talk things over and reach a feeling of "consensus" or broad social support is also typical. Because of these patterns of behavior, much social conflict is avoided. The "typical" way of handling things does have value, even in this situation.

Edited October 12, 2009 by Elizabeth Conley

[asta]

How incredibly sad. I would move heaven and earth and die before I allowed someone to deliberately harm my child.1

 

Dear Swellmomma,

 

"Can I ask why you did not step in immediately when you saw him grab your son? It sounds like you watched the whole thing unfold then went and spoke to others about it..."

 

This is the sort of question that makes people feel defensive, even though I'm sure you don't mean to go on the attack.

 

The vast majority of people will not move a muscle to physically defend themselves, nor will they defend their nearest and dearest. As someone who will, you represent a minority of about 5% of humanity. Only with training, conditioning and the right set of circumstances will the other 95% take immediate, decisive action.

 

The tendency to talk things over and reach a feeling of "consensus" or broad social support is also typical. Because of these patterns of behavior, much social conflict is avoided. The "typical" way of handling things does have value, even in this situation.

[AuntPol]

Swellmomma -My DH and I saw the whole thing and it happened quickly. I just saw. My husband and I are trained Marines and he especially never rushes into things. He is calm and level headed and never, ever makes a scene. My first response was to get my son and make sure he knew that he was not in trouble, had done nothing wrong, and that we loved him and had his back and would take care of it. My second course of action was to talk to my husband to see if we saw the same thing. We both already knew he was upset because we had passed him earlier when he was headed to first aid and we could tell by his body language that he was not pleased and we had found out the reason already. By the time my husband and I conversed, the other leaders were back and gathered. I could tell the leader in question was still irate so I pulled the leader that a) I have best relationship with b) works with my son (though she is actually 2nd year webelo leader) and c) her son was involved also so that she would know how her son had been treated. I did not feel my son was physically endangered but more treated in an extremely disrespectful manner. Had I felt my son was truly physically in danger, I would have went for the throat.

 

Janet -yes I think he would be poor in direct leadership which may be why he does pack related stuff in the background (at least to my knowledge). In the 4 years we have interacted with the scouting program, this is the first time we have seen him or anyone act like this. Occasionally someone is grumpy but never mean or rash about it.

 

Wendy -I agree. To me it was rude and extremely disrespectful more than dangerous, though it was not a safe way to handle things either.

[Janet in WA]

Swellmomma -My DH and I saw the whole thing and it happened quickly. I just saw. My husband and I are trained Marines and he especially never rushes into things. He is calm and level headed and never, ever makes a scene. My first response was to get my son and make sure he knew that he was not in trouble, had done nothing wrong, and that we loved him and had his back and would take care of it. My second course of action was to talk to my husband to see if we saw the same thing. We both already knew he was upset because we had passed him earlier when he was headed to first aid and we could tell by his body language that he was not pleased and we had found out the reason already. By the time my husband and I conversed, the other leaders were back and gathered. I could tell the leader in question was still irate so I pulled the leader that a) I have best relationship with b) works with my son (though she is actually 2nd year webelo leader) and c) her son was involved also so that she would know how her son had been treated. I did not feel my son was physically endangered but more treated in an extremely disrespectful manner. Had I felt my son was truly physically in danger, I would have went for the throat.

 

Janet -yes I think he would be poor in direct leadership which may be why he does pack related stuff in the background (at least to my knowledge). In the 4 years we have interacted with the scouting program, this is the first time we have seen him or anyone act like this. Occasionally someone is grumpy but never mean or rash about it.

 

Wendy -I agree. To me it was rude and extremely disrespectful more than dangerous, though it was not a safe way to handle things either.

Regardless of my momma-bear instincts, I hope I would have handled the situation as calmly and rationally as you did. I strongly disagree with those who have criticized your reaction. You are a wonderful model for your son, and I'm sure you can be credited with his ability to have handled this situation without overreacting.

[asta]

Trying to reply from a phone as my computer died. I think AuntPol reacted fine, I was disappointed in Elizabeth's comment about the majority of people not being willing to step into a situation. I honestly don't know how teens type on these stupid things...