Swine flu...revisited (yes, AGAIN)

[hornblower]

So what are the stats on child death with the seasonal flu?

 

I just checked now & the US is reporting 128 pediatric deaths for the 08-09 flu season (this is the end of the 08-09 season - your new season started Oct 4, so these #'s include the deaths this summer through now)

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/

 

Just for comparison, your 07-08 season reported 83 pediatric deaths in what was noted as a "rough year".

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/general/news/jun2608season-jw.html

 

06-07 had 60 reported pediatric flu deaths.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/weeklyarchives2006-2007/weekly20.htm

 

 

 

What's peculiar of course about what's happening now is that many of those illnesses and deaths took place during the summer months - times which traditionally would have seen NO flu activity.

 

I can't put my hands right now on the pediatric death breakdown as to antigenic typing (not all these reported influenza cases were due to H1N1) but there was an upswing in cases once H1N1 came on scene in April.

 

Remember that even if this flu has the same fatality rate as seasonal flu, the fact that nobody has any immunity means more people will catch it & the raw # of how many people die will therefore be higher. So if deaths/cases is the same, the fact that you have waaay more cases will mean you also will have more deaths.

[brinkseven]

My son was very ill Saturday night..vomiting and diarrhea for 12 hours and than achiness for the next couple days. Monday myself and the other 5 children all became very ill. Vomiting, diarrhea for 12 hours and than low grade fevers, headaches and lots of achiness. I talked to the nurse and they are referring to this as swine flu. My older children and and baby are doing fine now. It is my 3 yr. old who has asthma and my 2 yr. old who started to throw up again that concerns me. Everyone has mentioned sore chests..myself included but the vomiting was pretty violent so I am thinking we may just be sore? Overall, they seem to be doing fine. Everyone is eating and drinking . I am a bit paranoid though. FWIW we are in Tennessee too. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Tree House Academy]

My son was very ill Saturday night..vomiting and diarrhea for 12 hours and than achiness for the next couple days. Monday myself and the other 5 children all became very ill. Vomiting, diarrhea for 12 hours and than low grade fevers, headaches and lots of achiness. I talked to the nurse and they are referring to this as swine flu. My older children and and baby are doing fine now. It is my 3 yr. old who has asthma and my 2 yr. old who started to throw up again that concerns me. Everyone has mentioned sore chests..myself included but the vomiting was pretty violent so I am thinking we may just be sore? Overall, they seem to be doing fine. Everyone is eating and drinking . I am a bit paranoid though. FWIW we are in Tennessee too. Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

We are in TN too. Our area has just started really seeing it. It was very sporadic here, if at all, during the summer. I think we are seeing the first wave here that folks in TX, CA, FL, and so on saw back in April. I would ask you what part of TN you are in, but I could almost guess given the time in which you are becoming ill. You probably aren't far from me.

[Georgiana Daniels]

Took dd5 to the doc today with 102 fever, and they aren't even testing for the flu at this point. She said that she'd go out on a limb and say that yes, my dd has the flu. Did not prescribe antivirals for those who seem to be weathering it well (evidently she's weathering it well.)

 

Dr said they are seeing tons of 104 temps, and that this flu is changing the way they are doing things.

 

Daughter sitting around wearing a mask, which feels a bit silly since we've all been exposed.

 

Wish I knew for certain what she has.

[TN Mama]

Just wanted to check in with the hive and get your thoughts/updates since the last time we had a big swine flu thread.

 

Tonight, I was reading online and apparently we have had 21 deaths in TN (even though the source couldn't name them all :confused:). A little bitty 4 year old in my mom's area died just a few days ago. It is definitely here - and it really wasn't here yet until the last month or so. Kids in the ps are getting it left and right and the attendance is low.

 

Vaccines are arriving in TN and people are jumping on the bandwagon. Me, I am kinda jumping off the bandwagon and into the comfort of my home. I find myself taking the kids out to crowded places less and less and I am also feeling the urge to stop mingling with the ps kids.

 

So - anyone care to check in? What is happening in your state/community? Have you made any changes to your daily routine?

 

I think the number of confirmed deaths in TN is closer to 9. 9 or 21, either way it is still happening.

 

As of right now we are not planning on getting the swine flu vaccine here. We did get the regular flu shot and we wash hands often.

 

We are still going to girl scouts & church where the girls are surrounded by ps kids. Several schools in the area have been closed, although the largest district in the area hasn't, even though they've had 20%+ out at some schools.

 

It seems that in the past few weeks I've known several families who have been struck with flu. It just moves from one family member to another - infecting the entire house. I just figure we will get it eventually. We can't run from it... I'm thinking it's just a matter of time. I pray if/when it strikes, it'll be mild.

[MomLovesClassics]

What were your symptoms?

 

The boys had it the worst. The oldest who does not live at home had gone to the dr. It came on pretty strong and fast. The oldest ended up with pneumonia from it. They seemed to cough a lot. It lasted between a week or two.We started our remedies right away.

[hornblower]

Daughter sitting around wearing a mask, which feels a bit silly since we've all been exposed.

 

 

 

Exposure to flu is no a binary issue - it's not a Yes, I've been exposed/No, I've not been exposed. Well, at some level I guess you could argue it is a yes/no issue but.... what I'm trying to get at is that you could be exposed a bunch of times and not catch a high enough viral load to overwhelm your immune system. It could be the 4th or 5th time you're in contact or in a situation of exposure that the virus takes hold.

 

 

 

The other thing I wanted to throw out here is the issue of handwashing...

 

 

" One of the things we don't know is the principal mode of transmission of flu. It's probably one of three: large droplets that fall out quickly and don't remain suspended; much smaller aerosols of virus-laden particles that remain suspended in the air for hours or even days; and flu that's on inanimate objects (known as fomites). ....

 

Obviously if your hands are laden with virus because you cough or sneeze into them, it's good to sanitize your hands. But the evidence that you can get flu from virus particles you pick up from a doorknob, desk top, keyboard or even someone else's uncoughed-on hands is pretty meager. In fact, it's almost non-existent. So why do all the public health authorities, including CDC, keep telling people that the best defense is to wash your hands? That's the question that Dr. Arthur Reingold, head of epidemiology at the University of California, Berkeley, and codirector of the CDC-funded California Emerging Infections Program wanted to know. So he sent a letter to CDC asking it:"

 

 

Read the rest here

[Penelope]

Our ped sad it is all over town and I think our family has had it. I had to take one of the kids in and he was out of flu tests, there were so many. But there also are not many people that are very sick from it. Just typical flu with high fever etc.

 

I think by the time the vaccine is widely available, most people will have already been exposed.

[Mom2GirlsTX]

I'll just chime in here as I have posted this before. Both my dd woke up one morning 3 1/2 weeks ago with 101 fever, by 3 hours later it was 104. We took oldest (underlying health conditions, asthma, etc) dd who is 11 into emergency room at Childrens Hospital in Fort Worth. She tested negative for flu but Dr. was not convinced as she talked about false negatives and fact daughter had only been sick less than 5 hours when test was taken. She proceeded as it was H1N1 as she had seen over 500 cases in that small emergency clinic in past week. She did not recommend Tamiflu and said even if she did recommend it, would only give it if we had a positive and then it would be my decision. So we went home and told to monitor her closely, start nebulizer every 4 hours, etc.

 

DD#1 proceeded to get sicker, dd#2 proceeded to get better, DH (has MS, and very bad lungs but never a smoker) got sick on Wednesday (3 days after girls) and he was immediately prescibed Relenza by his Dr upon going in.

I got a very high fever, sore throat and chills for one day but felt achy for almost 2 weeks and could just barely plug along.

 

I did the heavy dose Vitamin D for 3 days on everyone plus the girls and I took Elderberry. I've never used many herbs on the girls, but Elderberry was amazing in how it helped my oldest who got very very ill with it. She started getting better on day 7 (day 3 to 5 were bad) and it was a full two weeks before she was back to normal.

 

I just want to say that my girls got their Seasonal Flu shot exactly 5 days before they got sick. I got my shot on a Friday and showed symtoms 4 days after my shot. I take a flu shot every year and never get symptoms from them. I do not know if it is coincidence, or if getting seasonal flu shot made us more prone to getting the virus.

 

I am not sure if we had it or not, but my daughters pediatrician says definitely yes and so does our Primary care dr. I'll take it that it was H1N1 as it presented like it (the emergency room dr. said it looked like a duck and quacked like a duck so it was probably a duck)

 

I don't know about taking the shot. I normally wouldn't but given my husbands health and how sick my older dd got, it really worried me.

 

Hornblower are you taking the shot?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Mom2GirlsTX

[hornblower]

 

Hornblower are you taking the shot?

 

I'm still dithering. Canada has GSK's shot which is the one with adjuvant. I'm leaning to a yes. Who knows when it will actually get rolled out though. I think they're talking mid-Nov now here & kids will be first so I'll need to make a decision for them before I make a decision for me......

[Mom2GirlsTX]

I'm still dithering. Canada has GSK's shot which is the one with adjuvant. I'm leaning to a yes. Who knows when it will actually get rolled out though. I think they're talking mid-Nov now here & kids will be first so I'll need to make a decision for them before I make a decision for me......

 

Ah, I like that answer...dithering. That is exactly how I feel about it, one minute I think yes, one minute no.

Still there is time to decide since there is no vaccination here for us yet.

[Georgiana Daniels]

Exposure to flu is no a binary issue - it's not a Yes, I've been exposed/No, I've not been exposed. Well, at some level I guess you could argue it is a yes/no issue but.... what I'm trying to get at is that you could be exposed a bunch of times and not catch a high enough viral load to overwhelm your immune system. It could be the 4th or 5th time you're in contact or in a situation of exposure that the virus takes hold.

 

 

 

That's great info. Thanks! I will continue to keep her (and my oldest who is now exhibiting symptoms) somewhat isolated.

[hornblower]

. She did not recommend Tamiflu and said even if she did recommend it, would only give it if we had a positive and then it would be my decision. So we went home and told to monitor her closely, start nebulizer every 4 hours, etc.

 

I'm actually a bit speechless at this.

 

These are precisely the kinds of cases that have been getting very seriously ill & dying. By the time a child wiith underlying conditions gets that sick, it's TOO LATE to start with antivirals and all that the docs are left with is ventilators, and ECMO if you're in a hospital which has it.

 

My perspective is that high risk cases should absolutely get Tamiflu. The CDC is cagey with their recommendations - the phrase 'should be considered' is quite a bit too loose for me. There are countries where they've been doing a "Tamiflu blanket" approach, dispensing it very liberally - Japan is one place & their death rates have been significantly lower than other countries without broad tamiflu coverage.....

 

Anyway, here's the CDC current official recs:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/asthma_clinicians.htm

 

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/recommendations.htm

 

 

Early empiric treatment with oseltamivir or zanamivir should be considered for persons with suspected or confirmed influenza who are at higher risk for complications including:

 

• Children younger than 2 years old;

• Persons aged 65 years or older

• Pregnant women

• Persons of any age with certain chronic medical or immunosuppressive conditions (see page 3); and,

• Persons younger than 19 years of age who are receiving long-term aspirin therapy.

 

[Mom2GirlsTX]

I wondered about this too after the fact. In fact, my daughters pediatrician was miffed about it. The Emergency room dr said that they would only give with a positive test result.

 

I am so glad my husband Dr. did prescribe Relenza, it quickened his symptoms but even with the Relenza he still got pneumonia after a week into it and had to go on a heavy duty antiobiotic. I don't think this flu is anything to play around with.

[LMA]

My mother is 84 and has a COPD condition. Every cold or flu she gets turns into pneumonia and she has to get an antibiotic. She goes to the hospital a lot for pneumonia. So, her pulmonologist told me that he would start her on antibiotic immediately when she started to show a sign of fever and flu-like symptoms regardless of the flu strain. He said that Tamiflu won't help her with the pneumonia because her colds turn into pneumonia so fast. And he wasn't going to wait around for the vaccine because she may not be able to get one.

[Mom2GirlsTX]

My mother is 84 and has a COPD condition. Every cold or flu she gets turns into pneumonia and she has to get an antibiotic. She goes to the hospital a lot for pneumonia. So, her pulmonologist told me that he would start her on antibiotic immediately when she started to show a sign of fever and flu-like symptoms regardless of the flu strain. He said that Tamiflu won't help her with the pneumonia because her colds turn into pneumonia so fast. And he wasn't going to wait around for the vaccine because she may not be able to get one.

 

That sounds like good advice. My husband has a type of inherited COPD so he gets pneumonia every year. Bleck!

[Tree House Academy]

I hadn't thought about my FIL who has COPD. Ugh! The kids and I are really keeping our distance from the grandparents this season due to illness. FIL can be quite medically fragile.

[fivetails]

Hmmm. I spotted a sign yesterday for flu vaccines - it was up at a pharmacy (well, sort of.. it was tucked away in the corner, not exactly easy to read) that seemed to suggest they do them through the public health clinic... that was the only location listed on the sign. The ONE public health clinic that we have. One clinic. For... 70,000 people? That sounds nuts. (We have way more people up this way than we have the structure for)

 

(It also sounds like a great way to catch something if you don't already have it, standing/sitting with crowds for hours and hours on end.)

[fivetails]

Okay, so it turns out there will be four places. Drop in *only*, open for approx 3-6 hours at a time. So basically, you go and sit. And wait. And wait. In a crowded waiting area with people sprawled everywhere, some of them sick and spreading their germs. Brilliant. :glare:

 

They start Tuesday, according to the chart. Seasonal flu shots only yet - which is weird. It was in the news just a few days ago that AB was one of the provinces that was holding back the seasonal because of the study linking seasonal flu shots to an increased risk of catching swine flu.

 

{and ergh. I'm supposed to babysit a boy today who's sister was sick with the flu this week. HE isn't sick, but his older sister was.}

[LNC]

We have all had it, except for my very medically fragile 15yo (thankfully!! He has been on prophylactic 1/2 dose Tamiflu for 6 weeks). We had is door shut tight and closed the air vent to his room, with a window unit ventilating his room! His nurse has to scrub in to enter the virus free room!

 

In early Sept., my 11yo son who goes to special ed at public school had it first, then me. I've been sick for over a month!!! Our symptoms were a very sore throat, high fevers for 4-5 days, stuffy and runny noses, severe cough/wheezing. Our ped gave us Tamiflu bc we were high risk, with no test for my son and a negative test for me.

 

My daughter came down with it a week later and she had a positive type A test. Our ped said that was for sure what my son and I had. She gave my daughter Tamiflu. My son with type 1 diabetes came down with it days later and took Tamiflu also. They were in bed, immobile for 5 days and coughing for 2 weeks so far. They both wheezed horribly and are still requiring nebulizer treatments. My son and I who had it first relapsed during their illness. Fevers came back and our symptoms got worse again. Very strange, our mucous was clear though. It was like the virus flared up again upon constant exposure to the younger sibs. We are getting better without antibiotics, so I don't think it was a secondary bacterial infection. Wonder what the deal is with that!!!! This was quite a virus. It has consumed our entire first 6 weeks of school so far, but we aren't behind. We kept going from our beds!!

 

The good news is that we are naturally vaccinated, but my oldest just can't ever get it.

[Peek a Boo]

No, i haven't changed my mind. yet.

more people have lived through the flu than died from it.

 

I'll keep watching the numbers. :)

[hornblower]

My son and I who had it first relapsed during their illness. Fevers came back and our symptoms got worse again.

 

LNC - that must have been a very stressful time for you all! I'm glad you're better!

 

 

I want to highlight this as this is ONE OF THE EMERGENCY WARNING SIGNS for this illness.

 

Flu-like symptoms improve but then return with fever and worse cough

 

The CDC has this as being an emergency warning sign in children but I'm certain in Cda this has been mentioned in adult cases - the ones who ended up on ventilators and several who ended up dying. They were getting better and suddenly got severly ill. So for everyone do watch for this one & get immediate medical attention if this is happening.

 

 

 

There are emergency warning signs. Anyone who has them should get medical care right away.

What are the emergency warning signs?

 

 

In children

 

• Fast breathing or trouble breathing

• Bluish skin color

• Not drinking enough fluids

• Not waking up or not interacting

• Being so irritable that the child does not want to be held

• Flu-like symptoms improve but then return with fever and worse cough

• Fever with a rash

In adults

 

• Difficulty breathing or shortness of breath

• Pain or pressure in the chest or abdomen

• Sudden dizziness

• Confusion

• Severe or persistent vomiting

 

http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/sick.htm

Edited October 9, 2009 by hornblower

[Georgiana Daniels]

Now this makes me nervous because my dd5 seems totally fine today (no fever), so will keep a close eye.

[Ali in OR]

My dad is a pulmonologist. He's started to send his 4 kids e-mails and journal articles on H1N1. I had talked to him about the vaccine a few weeks ago--he's now telling all of us that he strongly recommends us getting the vaccine for our families. Here's today's e-mail and the article he linked:

 

Hi to all of you

This link fits my own experience. We have had 3 patients (all young) on ventilators for severe influenza pneumonia with Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS) due to (H1N1-Swine Flu) during late Spring and Summer this year. This is unprecedented for (my home town) and does suggest to me that this virus is more likely to cause life threatenting illness in young people. Two of these patients were pregnant. This news release then fits what I have seen locally. I strongly recommed that all of you young ones out there have the H1N1 vaccine as it becomes available (and also the regular flu vaccination). Widespread immunization will be safe and could limit the number of cases in the population if this type of influenza hits us hard during the flu season (December through April).

 

http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-general/20091008/US.MED.Swine.Flu.Hospitalizations/

[Jennifer in MI]

I haven't read this entire thread yet. But, we think we had swine flu a couple weeks ago. Only one of the kids had the high fever. The rest of us had low-grade fevers.

 

Can this flu come in waves? I had the achiness, chills, fever, sweats, etc and felt better for a few days - tired, but better. Then, last week, I got a VERY sore throat, sneezing, coughing, etc. I'm STILL coughing. The boys got everything at the same time. We're all coughing like CRAZY!!! The cough has lasted 2 - 3 weeks. Oh - and I don't usually wheeze, but I've been wheezing with this. It's finally feeling a bit better now that the cough is loose.

 

Anyway, now that I think we've had it, I'm not going to do anything different this winter than we usually do. If I didn't think we'd had it, I may stay in a bit more.

[Tree House Academy]

I haven't read this entire thread yet. But, we think we had swine flu a couple weeks ago. Only one of the kids had the high fever. The rest of us had low-grade fevers.

 

Can this flu come in waves? I had the achiness, chills, fever, sweats, etc and felt better for a few days - tired, but better. Then, last week, I got a VERY sore throat, sneezing, coughing, etc. I'm STILL coughing. The boys got everything at the same time. We're all coughing like CRAZY!!! The cough has lasted 2 - 3 weeks. Oh - and I don't usually wheeze, but I've been wheezing with this. It's finally feeling a bit better now that the cough is loose.

 

Anyway, now that I think we've had it, I'm not going to do anything different this winter than we usually do. If I didn't think we'd had it, I may stay in a bit more.

 

I don't think it comes in waves...but it does weaken your immune system so you are more likely to pick up other stuff just after you have been sick.

 

That said, I have also had a sinus explosion lately with mildly sore throat (that I can tell is from the drainage) and so has about everyone I know. It has all been within the last week and I really think it is allergies to the season change for most. Mine is nagging and such, but allergy medicine is helping.

[cillakat]

Yes! It can absolutely come in waves. In fact, that's one of the CDC recommendations for 'seek emergency treatment immediately' - if you were feeling better then took a turn for the worse.

 

K

[Tree House Academy]

Yes! It can absolutely come in waves. In fact, that's one of the CDC recommendations for 'seek emergency treatment immediately' - if you were feeling better then took a turn for the worse.

 

K

 

I think we are talking about 2 different things. The one that the CDC is referring to is a secondary infection of some sort - getting better and then getting suddenly more ill than you were the first time around. I dont' think that is the same as getting it and then a few weeks to a month later, have something else with different symptoms like she is describing. I see your point, but I also think people have to use their heads here - if you get suddenly worse after feeling better, get to the doctor. If you are well for 2-4 weeks and then get different symptoms, it is likely not the same virus and rushing to the doctor will only cause you to pick up more germs. It is a fine line, but I think one that needs to be considered carefully. The CDC guidelines say, "Flu-like symptoms improve but then return with fever and worse cough" I take that to mean, you run fever for 3-4 days and have cough....then the fever is gone for 3-4 days and the cough gets a bit better...then, suddenly, you start running fever again and the cough comes back with a vengeance then get to the dr!

 

I just don't want to see people panic because they get a runny nose 3 weeks after having suspected swine flu. KWIM?