Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Oh, I see. It was "nuts" of ME to suggest others should check out a website where teenage girls were trying to get a "definition of modesty" from Christian guys in response to a thread entitled "Christian Modesty" that asked others for their "definition". And I'm sorry you solidly believe that most of the women and men who are concerned with modesty really just want women out of...well...everything. Asking "what is your own definition of modesty" to a group of grown women is not asking for a poll of teenaged, Christian guys/men. Clearly, nearly everything attractive turns them on so how is this a help? It implies that women shouldn't do x, y or z lest they be considered "immodest" or "a stumbling block." For example, women shouldn't wear necklaces because: Necklaces draw too much attention to the neck. Necklaces that create a "V" are a stumbling block. Long necklaces that hang down over or past the bust are a stumbling block. Playing with jewelry, such as a necklace, is a stumbling block. So, just as in the other thread I am expected not to breastfeed where I might be a stumbling block then I must also avoid wearing necklaces to avoid being a stumbling block, right? That's the logical conclusion here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 So, just as in the other thread I am expected not to breastfeed where I might be a stumbling block then I must also avoid wearing necklaces to avoid being a stumbling block, right? That's the logical conclusion here. No. Those young men need to get a grip on their hormones. I also wonder how much of that is a result of the way they've been raised. If they come from homes where they have been taught that unless a girl is dressed in a calf length dress with sleeves to the elbow and no necklaces, they are immodest, the results aren't very surprising. I could find a nice group of young Christian men, give them the same survey, and the results would be different. Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petepie2 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Asking "what is your own definition of modesty" to a group of grown women is not asking for a poll of teenaged, Christian guys/men. Clearly, nearly everything attractive turns them on so how is this a help? It implies that women shouldn't do x, y or z lest they be considered "immodest" or "a stumbling block." For example, women shouldn't wear necklaces because: So, just as in the other thread I am expected not to breastfeed where I might be a stumbling block then I must also avoid wearing necklaces to avoid being a stumbling block, right? That's the logical conclusion here. I'm sorry, but I don't understand these examples that you gave. In all of those statements, only a minority of guys polled agreed with them. The survey doesn't tell you what to do. It is what it is. They asked. They got answers. You do what you want with the results. To imply that these guys are going to judge a girl if she dresses in way that may be a stumbling block to them does them a disservice and is the same as waving a big paintbrush and accusing most of those who do this "modesty talk" of really just trying to boot women out of ballet, etc. I'm sorry if I have offended or insulted anyone by suggesting a link that involved a Christian teen discussion about modesty. Maybe these teens are just trying to "rebel against low expectations", as indicated by the subtitle of rebelution website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 No. Those young men need to get a grip on their hormones. I agree with you but what I meant was-do others think that to be the logical conclusion based on the framework of the website? I also wonder how much of that is a result of the way they've been raised. If they come from homes where they have been taught that unless a girl is dressed in a calf length dress with sleeves to the elbow and no necklaces, they are immodest, the results aren't very surprising. I could find a nice group of young Christian men, give them the same survey, and the results would be different. Janet I do agree with you here, as well. What types of young men are directed toward this survey? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) I'm sorry, but I don't understand these examples that you gave. In all of those statements, only a minority of guys polled agreed with them. Why would the questions even be there if not to show that they are a "stumbling block" for some guys and therefore to be avoided (as per the other thread on this)? To imply that these guys are going to judge a girl if she dresses in way that may be a stumbling block to them does them a disservice and is the same as waving a big paintbrush and accusing most of those who do this "modesty talk" of really just trying to boot women out of ballet, etc. I'm sorry, I'm did not make myself clear. I am in no way judging the young men. I am making logical conclusion about the desires of the people who made this site. Edited September 13, 2009 by Mrs Mungo fixing quote box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I think it is an anti-fabulous movement, they are anti-sparkles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I think it is an anti-fabulous movement, they are anti-sparkles. And pro-gauchos. :ack2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 And pro-gauchos. :ack2: My dh was raised Southern Baptist. He HHAATTESS the gauchos. THIS IS WHY HE VOTE FOR OBAMA!! He hates gauchos!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Again, read the explanatory notes that go with the survey, as many of these concerns have already been addressed on the site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Again, read the explanatory notes that go with the survey, as many of these concerns have already been addressed on the site. I read the notes, my personal concerns remain in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Why would the questions even be there if not to show that they are a "stumbling block" for some guys and therefore to be avoided (as per the other thread on this)? I'm sorry, I'm did not make myself clear. I am in no way judging the young men. I am making logical conclusion about the desires of the people who made this site. From the web site: "Over 200 Christian girls submitted their questions." The survey questions came from female Christians, not from the people who created the site. Also: "Some users may mistakenly assume that the statements that compose The Modesty Survey are the actual survey results. Actually, the statements are the survey's "questions" that were designed to elicit an agreement or disagreement on the part of the participants. As you can see above, the statement "Jeans are generally immodest, even if they aren't tight," prompted disagreement from the men who took the survey, to a tune of 77.5%. This disagreement is the results. The statement is the question." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petepie2 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Why would the questions even be there if not to show that they are a "stumbling block" for some guys and therefore to be avoided (as per the other thread on this)? I'm sorry, I'm did not make myself clear. I am in no way judging the young men. I am making logical conclusion about the desires of the people who made this site. Well, I guess if you went into it with the idea of the real motive for such "modesty talk" being to "hold back" women in some way, then I can see how you have to come to the conclusions that you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 From the web site:"Over 200 Christian girls submitted their questions." The survey questions came from female Christians, not from the people who created the site. I'm speaking of the *intent* of the site, as a whole, not the specific questions, themselves. Also:"Some users may mistakenly assume that the statements that compose The Modesty Survey are the actual survey results. Actually, the statements are the survey's "questions" that were designed to elicit an agreement or disagreement on the part of the participants. As you can see above, the statement "Jeans are generally immodest, even if they aren't tight," prompted disagreement from the men who took the survey, to a tune of 77.5%. This disagreement is the results. The statement is the question." What difference does it make the percentage? The implication behind the many, many modesty posts has been that you are to avoid anything that could be a stumbling block. The number of men to whom it may be a stumbling block isn't relevant if that is the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 My dh was raised Southern Baptist. He HHAATTESS the gauchos. THIS IS WHY HE VOTE FOR OBAMA!! He hates gauchos!! :D LOL My oldest dc says "Breasts are attractive as well as functional". And you know, Big freaking whoop to that. What of it? So? Say I see a cute guy, maybe he has cute legs and is wearing shorts. Maybe he has nice eyes and is not wearing sunglasses. Do I jump his bones? A. Yes, he was asking for it. B. No. I do not. Now everyone go home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 :D LOL Maybe he has nice eyes and is not wearing sunglasses. Do I jump his bones? A. Yes, he was asking for it. B. No. I do not. I think the question is more: his nice eyes make me hot a. I have problems that I need to deal with b. he is immodest and should hide those bedroom eyes, lest I stumble Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I think the question is more: his nice eyes make me hot a. I have problems that I need to deal with b. he is immodest and should hide those bedroom eyes, lest I stumble We've just solved 1/2 the problems of the world in under 5 minutes. Where's our compensation? My work here is done. Time for bed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) :lol: I did think my dh had nice legs when I hit on him. He won't wear pants, he dislikes them. (ok he does wear pants if there is a funeral...but that's about it. Yes, he does wear shorts in snowstorms.) Clearly he was sinning somehow. Edited September 13, 2009 by Sis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 We've just solved 1/2 the problems of the world in under 5 minutes. Where's our compensation? My work here is done. Time for bed. Nighty night! :auto: I have miles to go before I sleep. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Nighty night! :auto: I have miles to go before I sleep. ;) I see what you did there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Immodest means dressing in a way that draws attention to yourself. I have always been very careful about not exposing too much skin, but outrageous styles were my thing for a while. That was immodest. Here's the thing: The world *does* define modesty. The Bible does NOT give us specific instructions on what "modesty" means. There have been times in history when cleavage was acceptable but elbows were not. Go figure. In some parts of the world women (and men) were little clothing yet they are considered "modest" by *their* world's standards.:iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I think the question is more: his nice eyes make me hot a. I have problems that I need to deal with b. he is immodest and should hide those bedroom eyes, lest I stumble Perfect. I love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Immodest means dressing in a way that draws attention to yourself.I have always been very careful about not exposing too much skin, but outrageous styles were my thing for a while. That was immodest.:iagree: I laugh so loud I don't think I could avoid drawing attention to myself if I wore a heap of burlap sacks. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I laugh so loud I don't think I could avoid drawing attention to myself if I wore a heap of burlap sacks. :lol:I of course mean dressing in a way that would promote self prominence. Whether that entails expensive clothing, sexually provocative styles, excessive jewelry, or colorful strange garbe that draws attention to one's creativity, it is immodest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 (edited) What if you are just a weirdo in general and don't *mean* to draw attention to yourself. Does that make you immodest or can you get a little extra slack for being socially disabled? Edited September 13, 2009 by Sis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 When we lived in Germany we had cable through AFN (American Forces Network). Instead of commercials it had stuff like "State Quiz!" (a brief quiz where you were supposed to guess the state). They also had commercials telling you not to be a "target for terrorists" and that you shouldn't dress in ways that made you stand out. Given how differently the German haircuts (especially compared to the military guys) and clothing was and given that we had special license plates on our cars, that was pretty much impossible. You could walk into almost anywhere and pick out the Americans. There was a Mexican restaurant in Mainz, owned by a guy from San Antonio. On any given night it was full of Americans. The restaurant in our neighborhood, Franco's (not the real name, it was owned by Franco's uncle but Franco ran it and that's what everyone called it...oh, talking about it is making me so hungry for steak with garlic butter, I can't even tell you), was almost exclusively frequented by Americans. This is what this thread is now reminding me of. I'm just sayin'.... :cheers2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I see what you did there. Cool blog stuff? Linky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 What if you are just a weirdo in general and don't *mean* to draw attention to yourself. Does that make you immodest or can you get a little extra slack for being socially disabled? What if you have a penchant for long skirts and bangly bracelets in an area people are mostly wearing preppy pink and green with understated tennis bracelets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I of course mean dressing in a way that would promote self prominence. Whether that entails expensive clothing, sexually provocative styles, excessive jewelry, or colorful strange garbe that draws attention to one's creativity, it is immodest. Wow, just wow. How dare anyone dress "differently" then :glare: Different may draw attention...it doesn't automatically equate as immodest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 If one is dressing with the intention of promoting self prominence then it is not modest. I have tried to explain that as I have applied this to myself. I think I need a board break from all of this nitpicky squabbling.:glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 strange garbe that draws attention This is the part I was picking on, Carmen. The reason is that some people think that wearing skirts everyday is "strange garbe that draws attention", simply because they and their social group do not practice it. I'm attending a highly diverse ethnic church. Some of the people dress "normal", some "plain", some in very "strange garb" (they look like they are wrapped from head to toe in linen...but it's a day for them to wear their cultural dress). I'm even considering making Tear Dresses for my daughters and I for Chrismation along with a medicine bag for each family member. This would be very strange garbe in a church full of Greek, Ethiopians, Ukranians, and German ex-Catholics. It's not to draw attention, but it will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 ::Sigh:: I know... we always do the nitpicking on these boards in order to get a full understanding. I am sick today and really need to lay off of the boards.;) I think that I am the one who really does need to take a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 ::Sigh:: I know... we always do the nitpicking on these boards in order to get a full understanding. I am sick today and really need to lay off of the boards.;) I think that I am the one who really does need to take a break. :grouphug: I really was trying to get to full understanding. You can probably tell I've been hit from both sides on this issue (you're legalistic/you're liberal). Hugs to you and I pray you feel better :( I'm not feeling good today either...so probably not a good day for heavy discussions. Heavens, it's the Lord's Day and we're crabby. Okay, time to cook, rest, and love on our families ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 :grouphug: Heavens, it's the Lord's Day and we're crabby. Okay, time to cook, rest, and love on our families ;) :grouphug:I have to go to the grocery. Hubby just had surgery and I think I have the swine flu, on top of my condition. WAAAAAAA! I am wearing sweatpants and hubby's T-shirt to the grocery store. I am sure something is wrong with that...:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 :grouphug:I have to go to the grocery. Hubby just had surgery and I think I have the swine flu, on top of my condition. WAAAAAAA! I am wearing sweatpants and hubby's T-shirt to the grocery store. I am sure something is wrong with that...:tongue_smilie: You're not feeling good and have a laid up hubby....who can blame you? Are you covered? Ankles showing? :lol: Mine's just womanly issues, thankfully. Came home, got on pj bottoms and borrowed one of hubby's T-shirts also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I of course mean dressing in a way that would promote self prominence. Whether that entails expensive clothing, sexually provocative styles, excessive jewelry, or colorful strange garbe that draws attention to one's creativity, it is immodest. I know exactly what you mean. Plenty of people wear crosses, but most of them wear them roughly the size of a shield. While I'm all for putting on the armor of righteousness, I don't think that blinging it out is what God was going for ;) If you're wearing a cross that could blind someone miles away then, imo, it's immodest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Cool blog stuff? Linky? She quoted Robert Frost Nothing exciting :lol: I was making joke :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I think the issue is that being "immodest" or referring to another's actions as "immodest" is an insult. I have some long colorful skirts because I like them. I am happier in more colorful clothing. I don't wear colorful clothing to get attention, I also am doing my home in bright colors because my husband and I like them. We don't like taupe and beige. I guess my issue is that one cannot assume intentions. If someone told me my bright skirts (which are long) were immodest I would be insulted. Where are the rules for men clothing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I think the issue is that being "immodest" or referring to another's actions as "immodest" is an insult. I have some long colorful skirts because I like them. I am happier in more colorful clothing. I don't wear colorful clothing to get attention, I also am doing my home in bright colors because my husband and I like them. We don't like taupe and beige. I guess my issue is that one cannot assume intentions. If someone told me my bright skirts (which are long) were immodest I would be insulted. Where are the rules for men clothing? No speedos or thongs :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I think the issue is that being "immodest" or referring to another's actions as "immodest" is an insult. I have some long colorful skirts because I like them. I am happier in more colorful clothing. I don't wear colorful clothing to get attention, I also am doing my home in bright colors because my husband and I like them. We don't like taupe and beige. I guess my issue is that one cannot assume intentions. If someone told me my bright skirts (which are long) were immodest I would be insulted. Where are the rules for men clothing? No baggie pants that show the top of your underwear in the imitation of prison garb. I didn't mean to say that colorful clothing is immodest. Not at all. I was trying to describe the way that I used to dress that wasn't modest. The reason that I know my clothing style was not modest is because I know my own intentions. The scripture on modesty makes it clear that placing undo importance on one's looks is where the problem lies, whether it be sexually provocative clothing, excessive jewelry, or hairstyle. It isn't something that can be spelled out with rules like "too colorful". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 She quoted Robert Frost Nothing exciting :lol: I was making joke :001_smile: I missed that...and miles to go before I sleep and miles to go before I sleep. Got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted September 15, 2009 Share Posted September 15, 2009 I haven't read all the responses. I dress fairly modestly in day to day attire. Jeans, ankle length skirts, no BooKs hanging out. I've always done so, more because its what I call 'kid wear' or 'Mom Gear' than anything else. If I'm chasing my kids, the last thing I want or need is to be hampered by a tight skirt, heels, or bending over to pick up a kidlet and showcasing my hind end to everyone in the area. Now, that being said. I have outfits that show cleavage. And I'm huge on top. I refer to my chest as Ye Olde Mountain Range. I wear such things to please my husband, who finds it attractive, and a definite line and change from 'Mom Gear'. Shorter dresses, etc. But *only* when I'm out with him. And while we're sharing, (lol) I don't subscribe to the 'granny' school of underclothes. Give me something feminine, pretty, lacy, any day over plain old white utility wear. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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