A question about Burkas/Burqas

[Heather in Neverland]

One of the best things about living in Malaysia is the variety of cultures and religions living fairly peacefully together. Malaysia is technically a Muslim country and even that comes in a variety of forms.

 

I have great respect for many of the traditions of other cultures. For instance, even though I would never personally wear a burqa, I agree with the idea that modesty in women is underrated. It is my opinion that too many young girls and women dress too immodestly for this conservative's taste. So again, while my version of modesty may take a different shape, I respect the modesty behind the wearing of the burqa.

 

BUT

 

What I don't get is the HUGE difference between modesty as it relates to Muslim men vs. women. For instance, at the mall yesterday I saw many Muslim couples where the woman was dressed in full black burqa with only her eyes showing and the man was wearing a tight-fitting t-shirt, shorts, flip-flops and a baseball cap on backwards. And this was the norm. I guess I don't understand why the women are so formal and reverent in their attire and the men look very "westernized". It just struck me as unfair.

 

Question #2: If the point of the burqa is to keep the woman from drawing unwanted attention to her face and/or body then why do the women wear burqas that are heavily adorned with shiny beading and sequins? The burqas I have seen here are quite ornate and definitely draw your eye to them. Doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose?

 

If anyone has deeper knowledge of burqas I would love your perspective.

[Amber in AUS]

From my limited reading on their culture my understanding is that the women are also quite western under their burquas and enjoy having beautiful burquas to show off in public just as much as westerners enjoy a lovely dress. It seems unfair to me too!

 

We look forward to visiting KL in 6 weeks and i am sure the kids will enjoy the culture.

[vkay]

Now keep in mind that they were male, so it's from their perspective. It went something like this:

 

Men cannot help their reaction to the female form. It's a natural, biological response (lust) and because it is to be expected on the male's part, it is up to the woman to cover it. They believe that it's a sin to lust after a woman (unless it's your wife) and that women who do not cover their shape cause men to sin.

 

They don't see this as a vica-versa situation.

 

I tried to reason with them. I told them that it seems women are treated unfairly in their country. They actually view it as the opposite. They think that we (western world) treat women with little respect. They whole heartily believe that by covering their women they are respecting their women by not allowing men to lust after them. That they love them so much, they are protecting them from the evils of man.

 

Something like that....... we had many good conversations. They were just in the US for college and went home during school breaks. I learned a lot about the culture. It was fascinating. My poor mother at the time was so worried that I would end up marrying one and disappearing to the Middle East somewhere. lol

[Osmosis Mom]

Well, Heather, if they are wearing burka in Malaysia then you can be pretty sure they are doing it of their own free will, and in the end, isn't that what your concern is?

 

 

Boys/man can wear whatever they want from an Islamic point of view as long as shorts go from their navels to their knees and they are not wearing gold. You'd see the same kind of contrast if a burka (or hijaab-wearing) woman was walking next to a Western-styled girlfriend or daughter. As an aside, then most of the time the girls with burka are dressed quite nciely *under the burka*, LOL!!

 

About your question #2, the adornment...Most of the time then a burka would not show her figure, right, so what's a few sequins going to do? As long as she is not bangling with a sound as she moves then she should be fine.

 

Islam has some strict guideline, yes, but there is also a lot of free say and interpretations allowed.

 

When living in a different country with a culture and religion of its own, then I have found it is always of great advantage to try to develop a respect for others and be less judgmental. To me, I have grown from being open and having lived in a few different continents with different kinds of peoples.

[mommaduck]

One can be modest and still wear something beautiful. That is the idea behind the adorned burqas.

[2cents]

In college we had a Muslim woman come to one of our classes to explain her reasons for the Burka. She said that the men could not help but be distracted by a female and by covering up it allowed the men to take them seriously. They were able to get past the visual stimulation and get into their mind. She said it was a sign of respect.The men valued their opinions enough to require them to wear Burkas so that the women could be judged on their intellectual merit.

 

Did I buy her explaination? Not really. I felt it was her way of justifying wearing the Burka to herself more than others. This particular reasoning IMO is a little frightening because it would lead one to think that Mulim men have little self control and judgement. It also begins with the notion that women are biologically designed to lure and entice men that have no control. I felt her reasoning didn't exactly speak very well of either the men or the women. There is also the point that it is required attire in certain Muslim countries with stiff penalties for non-compliance. So much for the respecting women argument. I think I may have been the only one in the class that questioned her logic because several of the women in the class seemed to be ready to rush out and buy Burkas. ;)

Edited July 26, 2009 by 2cents

[Jenny in Atl]

Burqas are a tribal dress and pre-date Islam. Both sexes wore them at times. So its original meaning/purpose has morphed over time (protection for the elements being one, and having nothing to do with modesty).

[Kate in Arabia]

Burqas are a tribal dress and pre-date Islam.

They are also very limited geographically. I would find it unusual to see them outside of Afghanistan/northern Pakistan, unless it is an immigrant group.

 

Most of the world has different clothing expectations for men and women, and while religion may dictate one thing the way individual people interpret and/or practice that may be something else.

[Melinda in VT]

They are also very limited geographically. I would find it unusual to see them outside of Afghanistan/northern Pakistan, unless it is an immigrant group.

 

Most of the world has different clothing expectations for men and women, and while religion may dictate one thing the way individual people interpret and/or practice that may be something else.

 

I saw quite a few burquas during a short trip to Morocco 10 years ago. (We were in Tangier and Marrakesh.)

 

Are you saying the women wearing them were probably immigrants from Afghanistan or northern Pakistan?

[Kate in Arabia]

 

I saw quite a few burquas during a short trip to Morocco 10 years ago.

Really? Interesting.

[Melinda in VT]

Really? Interesting.

 

It was actually. It was my only experience in an Arab or Muslim country. A bit overwhelming, actually, but I was 12 weeks pregnant with twins and not at my best. :glare:

 

We rode over on the ferry boat from Spain, and noticed that a number of the women got on the boat in Western dress and changed into burkas as we approached Tangier.

[Kate in Arabia]

Burqas or abayas or djellabas? Seriously, I've not noticed the burqa worn outside of the Afghani/Pakistani area (except in unusual circumstances). It's a really distinctive garment.

[Osmosis Mom]

We rode over on the ferry boat from Spain, and noticed that a number of the women got on the boat in Western dress and changed into burkas as we approached Tangier.

 

Well, that sounds weird, but not unheard of. However, those instances have nothing to do with women chossing to wear burkas for religious reasons (same thing with the hijaab where some put it on when entering specific countries, but the purpose of hijab is for a woman to make a personal, private statement in her obedience to what many believe is an order from God to *her*).

 

I would not say that the burka is a cultural thing, but that the type of burka (like hijab) is. Actually, there are many women here in MA, USA who wears the burka, in different shapes, but full cover nevertheless. Incl. converts.

 

I don't personally believe the burka is mandated except if you are in an extreme kind of situation; such as being very pretty -or not- and looking diferent even with your hijab, making people feel attracted to looking at you in which case I think it is mandated/strongly recommended to wear full face-cover while in that area. I have met many women who have chosen to wear it freely and a few who did it because it was expected of them, but I am not convinced they thrived with it, however to them it was less important than to fulfill what might be concluded as an obligation.

 

So, the matter is complex.

 

The OP was musing over the contrast, but as long as young Muslim people are modest and fulfilling a very minimum dress-code, then they can wear Western clothing or not....

[Melinda in VT]

Burqas or abayas or djellabas? Seriously, I've not noticed the burqa worn outside of the Afghani/Pakistani area (except in unusual circumstances). It's a really distinctive garment.

 

Kate, thanks for the other terms. Based on the pictures on Wikipedia, I think what I saw were abayas, some with additional face veils (niquabs?).

 

Now I'm wondering if I'm the only Westerner who thought these were all called burqas. :o

 

So much to learn. So little time.

[Ummto4]

Heather, since it is Malaysia you're talking about, I'd like to chime in because there are some cultural similarities between Indonesian and Malaysian.

 

 

Islamically, both Muslim women and men have their awrah (things from their body they should not expose to strangers).

- Woman cannot expose anything except: face and hands. Some imaams allow women to also expose their feet and toes.

- Men can expose everything except from navel to lower knees.

 

 

However, there are some imaams in the Middle Eastern countries who believe that burqa or niqab is compulsory (burqa = a piece of clothing to cover the face except the eyes).

 

Other than that, if you see there's differences between Muslim dress in various countries, they are just regional variation and they are allowed in Islam.

 

Malaysian has its own way of wearing hijab, which is a piece of clothing to cover the hair and neck (they call it tudung, by the way - pronounced: too-doong). The flowery aspect of it is also regional. If you see Iindonesian, they also like to wear flowery dresses. These are okay.

This may seem weird to Westerner, but I remember when I went to UK the first time and saw people wearing maroon, dark blue, dark green, gray, or black clothing, I thought ... they're so gloomy !! And they're so plain !!

 

You must have seen African people, right ? They also like to wear thteir traditional flowery dresses. Have you seen Pakistani ? Their dresses are also full of beads. For them, it's normal.

 

OTher poster thinks that Muslim women in malaysia/Indonesia wear something underneath the clothing. No, we just wear underwwear. But I know people in Middle Eastern countries like to wear something nice , and then put jilbab/khimar/abaya (plain dress with long sleeves, like long overcoat) on top of it.

 

Heather, in MAlaysia, they have this traditional dress called: baju kurung (bah-joo koo-roong). IT consists of long skirt, a bit like sarong. And long loose tunic which reaches to the knees. You will only see this in Malaysia and part of Sumatra (Indonesia). Girls like to wear this with their hijab. But you'll see that there are other Malaysian who wear abaya (plain one-piece dress with long sleeves) with their hijab, so their style is more Middle Eastern-looking. You'll also see girls wearing Western clothing with hijab.

 

IF you go to Indonesia, you'll see more people with Western clothing with hijab. Or people who wear shalwar-khamis (Pakistani dress) kind of clothing with hijab.

 

And they're all flowery and have beads. We think Western clothing are plain ...:tongue_smilie:

 

I personally have some shalwar-khamis kind of clothing, jumper dress, abaya, and Western-style pants and shirt. I do have hijab with embroidery, beads and flower.

 

I guess these are all cultural differences. Hope this answers your questions.

[Kate in Arabia]

I would not say that the burka is a cultural thing, but that the type of burka (like hijab) is. Actually, there are many women here in MA, USA who wears the burka, in different shapes, but full cover nevertheless. Incl. converts.

I think a burqa is very different, chiefly because it doesn't have any sleeves. I don't think it's the same as an abaya (like an overcoat, with sleeves) worn with a separate hijab (headscarf) and separate niqab (face covering) at all (that is obviously just my opinion), and so often I see the term "burqa" used in an all-encompassing somewhat negative manner (I'm not suggesting that is being done in this thread) because of the whole Taliban thing.

 

The range of Muslim women's clothing is so large.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Kate in Arabia

[Heather in Neverland]

I guess these are all cultural differences. Hope this answers your questions.

 

Thank you for all the great info. I was mostly curious about the drastic difference between muslim men and women in clothing. I think I expected to see the men less "western" looking in their dress since the women seemed to take their dress so seriously. I thought the decorative burqas were beautiful!! Very ornate and eye-catching...all black with shiny silver beading in fancy patterns. I just wondered why they would choose to make them so "eye-catching" when I thought the point of the burqa was so people wouldn't look at them. There is obviously a lot more to burqas than meets the eye! I admit that one of them was so beautiful I kind of wanted one. :D

[Ummto4]

Heather,

 

I'm curious whether you've seen any Muslim woman in MAlaysia wearing Western dress + hijab ? Because from your email, it seems that you've only seen the ones wearing more traditional clothing.

 

When I was younger :001_smile:, I actually wore pants/long skirts and long-sleeve shirt with hijab most of the time both in UK and in Indonesia (and I wore flip flop too on summer). And a lot of my Malaysian girl friend wore that too. Most, actually, except on Eid where they all dressed up with baju kurung.

[Dirtroad]

In regards to Malaysia, in graduate school classes I worked with a sweet lady from Malaysia. She said it was not like the "news" that we see. She dressed very much like us and talked of her country being more "moderate". Several of the women from Turkey were with their husbands (who were students) and wore a scarf that concealed their hair... wore pants, but were very conservative in dress. However, one lady from Turkey was a grad student & was very western (beautiful & very smart) ... even had color in her hair (light shade/highlight only) and wore jeans on occassion. The students in our group from Kuwait were men... dressed extremely well in western clothing... but the wives stayed back in Kuwait. These countries appear to have different customs and different definitions of modesty or roles for women.

 

In regards to complete coverings.... so many feel it is a form of expression & a modesty issue for the women... and yes, I have heard some women speak this way. However, why is it that SO many SHED it at the first opportunity & some resent it. (that is not modesty but suppression). Also, do not judge, is so abused. Let's not form an opinion on the suppression of women in many areas of the world & let them continue to be treated as 1/2 a donkey & can't even testify on her own behalf. Just dont' offend the men or the women who like that way of life.

 

I have always admired groups like the Mennonites.... to be modest or set yourself apart should apply to both sexes.... and they do this (as do a few other relegions). I am always heartbroken to see the women completely covered or dressing very "odd" in comparison with the average dress of the day... yet the men are wearing shorts/tees, suits/ties, or even sweat pants.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Osmosis Mom]

In regards to Malaysia, in graduate school classes I worked with a sweet lady from Malaysia. She said it was not like the "news" that we see. She dressed very much like us and talked of her country being more "moderate". Several of the women from Turkey were with their husbands (who were students) and wore a scarf that concealed their hair... wore pants, but were very conservative in dress. However, one lady from Turkey was a grad student & was very western (beautiful & very smart) ... even had color in her hair (light shade/highlight only) and wore jeans on occassion. The students in our group from Kuwait were men... dressed extremely well in western clothing... but the wives stayed back in Kuwait. These countries appear to have different customs and different definitions of modesty or roles for women.

 

In regards to complete coverings.... so many feel it is a form of expression & a modesty issue for the women... and yes, I have heard some women speak this way. However, why is it that SO many SHED it at the first opportunity & some resent it. (that is not modesty but suppression). Also, do not judge, is so abused. Let's not form an opinion on the suppression of women in many areas of the world & let them continue to be treated as 1/2 a donkey & can't even testify on her own behalf. Just dont' offend the men or the women who like that way of life.

 

I have always admired groups like the Mennonites.... to be modest or set yourself apart should apply to both sexes.... and they do this (as do a few other relegions). I am always heartbroken to see the women completely covered or dressing very "odd" in comparison with the average dress of the day... yet the men are wearing shorts/tees, suits/ties, or even sweat pants.

 

 

Hmm, I am not quite sure what you mean. In any religion or culture there are people who misunderstand or manipulate their religion to make it fit their needs (be they masochistic or otherwise). And force people -especially women in their care- to follow their orders. Religion has to come from the inside. In Islam you are not a Muslim unless you choose to be one when you become a thinking teen; you have to be a conscious (private) decision to submit to God. That said, as Muslims then we try to raise our children so they do indeed make this decision, but in the end, then if I have done my part as a Muslim parent then I am no longer responsible once the child is mentally mature.

 

Yes, I know personal incidents of force in Islam, but actually from the array of people I have met globally then the cases have been few and mostly due to ignorance and culture on the parents' part. Taliban's suppression of women is though a classic example of chavinistic oppression, however, they do not threaten Islam in any way as the Quran adn the teaching sof Prophet Muhammad are vastly different and so full of love and respect for both sexes and all humanity.

[Amy in TX]

(and sorry if I've missed it among all the replies), but:

 

I was mostly curious about the drastic difference between muslim men and women in clothing. I think I expected to see the men less "western" looking in their dress since the women seemed to take their dress so seriously. :D

 

As you've probably gathered, there is a *very* wide range of dress styles that would meet Islamic requirements, which are in short: women should cover everything but face, hands, and (opinion varies on this) feet, and men should cover everything between the navel and the knees. Nothing should be tight-fitting or transparent (for either sex).

 

Yes, dress requirements/customs are different for men and women, but I'm not aware of a culture in which that isn't so. I don't believe that men are unable to control themselves, and I cringe when I hear fellow Muslims offering that as a justification for modest dress. I do believe that men are somewhat more easily visually stimulated than women, but that both sexes should avoid being sexually attractive to the general public ;). It's not just the letter of the law that matters, but also the spirit. If a man is shirtless and wearing long shorts, he is technically meeting the requirements, but is going to draw a lot of attention anywhere other than the beach, and probably embarrass or annoy people, and so should (imho) go beyond the requirements in most public settings.

 

As far as the man dressing more western-style than the woman, not knowing the couple you saw, I couldn't say what their motivations were. Maybe she is under family pressure to wear a burqa; maybe she is not under pressure, but that's the custom in her family. Maybe she believes it's required, and nobody else in her family is that strict. Maybe she has a hard time finding western-style clothing that is sufficiently modest, and prefers to throw on a burqa or abaya over her t-shirt or whatever. (I occasionally use abayas this way myself.)

 

Anyway, Heather, I always appreciate your interest and curiosity, and admire your adventurous spirit--you're a better traveler than I am, & I take my hat off to you for that :001_smile:

[WishboneDawn]

 

I have always admired groups like the Mennonites.... to be modest or set yourself apart should apply to both sexes.... and they do this (as do a few other relegions).

 

I don't know...If one is going to rail against religiously or culturally imposed limitations on people's freedoms it seems the Mennonites are just as guilty. The fact that they might be a little more consistent across the genders doesn't, for me, make that somehow more acceptable. Besides, that's just clothing. I'm quite sure that in Mennonite culture there are plenty of aspects more important then dress where matter are not treated equally with both sexes.

 

Anyway, thanks for this thread ladies!

[hillfarm]

In my area, the Mennonites and Amish do have clothing styles that are similar in intent for both men and women, but don't mistake that for a sense of equality. Have you ever noticed how in the buggies, the women and children always ride on the side nearest traffic and the men in the safest, farthest from danger, seat? My Mennonite neighbor explained to me that was because the man was considered to be the most important member of the family. She said, "A man can easily get a new wife or new children. It is very difficult to replace the man of the family."

 

I hope that is not the feeling of all Mennonite and Amish families, but since we had that conversation, I have been more observant and have never seen women or children placed in the "safer" seat.

[KingM]

I hope that is not the feeling of all Mennonite and Amish families, but since we had that conversation, I have been more observant and have never seen women or children placed in the "safer" seat.

 

I don't know enough about the culture to say, but at least both men and women are roughly expected to live the same lifestyle. This does not seem to be the case in burkha-wearing cultures. I've seen these mismatched couples everywhere from Tunis to London and it strikes me as very unfair.

 

In general, it seems as around the world, women are generally required to give up more than men in order to maintain their piety. What confuses me is how often it is other women who are enforcing this lower status. When I read Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, it was eye-opening to me how it was humiliation and peer pressure from girls and women that led Ali's grandmother to take her and her sister to get their external genitals removed. Her father, for all of his patriarchal, tribal and Islamist feelings, was against female circumcision, and thought of it as a barbaric relic of an earlier age.

[KingM]

Burqas or abayas or djellabas? Seriously, I've not noticed the burqa worn outside of the Afghani/Pakistani area (except in unusual circumstances). It's a really distinctive garment.

 

In North Africa, I have seen every style of dress among Muslim women from uncovered heads, to scarves, to veils, to outfits that show nothing but the eyes, to those that do not even show the eyes. I'm not sure of the technical terms for all of these things, but there really is a wide diversity of dress.

[Dirtroad]

The Mennonites have choices. Many women in burquas do not.

 

I dont' care if they ride a donkey or sit on the left of a cart. I dont' care if their faith establishes the male as head of a household with specific duties for wife & husband. I don't care if they smoke in front of a mud hut.... as long as they have the opportunity to make choices and decisions. It is also being assumed that women who take on a "home" role & men are final decision makers are suppressed and abused. Clear roles in a family or business are good BUT should be accepted by both spouses.

 

All families adopt different models... sadly in an agricultural society, the man is more valuable because he is providing the major source of their income. (no less devastating in the loss of a child or wife). We "mainstreamers" often carry more LIFE INS on the biggest bread winner - does that mean the possible stay at home mom has not value ot her family. (no way)

 

I am refering to women being ENSLAVED and have no where to turn. Their ankles hit with whips if a man happens to see it... they can't buy from the market without male escorts... they can't have doctors... they can't testify in court even when raped.... often it is assumed they caused the rape... and they can't even go to basic school.

 

You can't even begin to level that on Mennonites, Amish, and other groups where men & women may follow traditional or relegious models of clothing or family structure. They can leave.... and wont' be stoned.;) Sorry OP... this is off on a rabbit trail! (we need a rabbit smiley!)

Edited July 27, 2009 by Dirtroad

[KingM]

I am refering to women being ENSLAVED and have no where to turn. Their ankles hit with whips if a man happens to see it... they can't buy from the market without male escorts... they can't have doctors... they can't testify in court even when raped.... often it is assumed they caused the rape... and they can't even go to basic school.

 

You can't even begin to level that on Mennonites, Amish, and other groups where men & women may follow traditional or relegious models of clothing or family structure. They can leave.... and wont' be stoned.;) Sorry OP... this is off on a rabbit trail! (we need a rabbit smiley!)

 

In defense of Islam, most of these places are still very tribal in origin, whereas conservative Christian sects generally must make their peace with the secular society in which they live. And there are examples of Islamic countries such as Tunisia and Turkey where women work, drive, walk with heads uncovered without fear of abuse, etc.

 

Having said that, I mostly agree with what you wrote. I don't understand why the West gets so worked up about some human rights issues (Tienanmen Square, Apartheid, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans), while completely ignoring 100 million untouchables in India, slavery in some parts of Africa, and the oppression of the basic human rights of tens of millions of women throughout North Africa and the Middle East.

[Cricket]

In my area, the Mennonites and Amish do have clothing styles that are similar in intent for both men and women, but don't mistake that for a sense of equality. Have you ever noticed how in the buggies, the women and children always ride on the side nearest traffic and the men in the safest, farthest from danger, seat? My Mennonite neighbor explained to me that was because the man was considered to be the most important member of the family. She said, "A man can easily get a new wife or new children. It is very difficult to replace the man of the family."

 

I hope that is not the feeling of all Mennonite and Amish families, but since we had that conversation, I have been more observant and have never seen women or children placed in the "safer" seat.

 

That is so bizarre! Everyone knows it would be much easier to replace one person than 5 or 6! :D

[KingM]

That is so bizarre! Everyone knows it would be much easier to replace one person than 5 or 6! :D

 

Not only that, but what parent wouldn't rather die than see one of his/her children killed? Whatever the local custom, I'm guessing that Mennonite and Amish fathers feel the same as everyone else about this question.

[Kate in Arabia]

In general, it seems as around the world, women are generally required to give up more than men in order to maintain their piety.

I think it's a much deeper issue than that. How many threads have we had on this board complaining about the discrepancy in clothing for girls in the States? Why can I buy nice swim trunks and a swim shirt for my boys, but nothing similar for girls? Even when the topic of "modest swimsuits" was brought up, several ridiculed the idea of girls (or women) wearing suits that I thought simply looked more like boys' suits.

 

What I see as the underlying issue here, is that *everyone* places expectations on women's (and girls') clothing. I think it's wrong for societies to *force* women to cover, I also think it's wrong for societies to *force* women to uncover. We should have the right to choose either way.

[Osmosis Mom]

I don't know enough about the culture to say, but at least both men and women are roughly expected to live the same lifestyle. This does not seem to be the case in burkha-wearing cultures. I've seen these mismatched couples everywhere from Tunis to London and it strikes me as very unfair.

 

In general, it seems as around the world, women are generally required to give up more than men in order to maintain their piety. What confuses me is how often it is other women who are enforcing this lower status. When I read Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, it was eye-opening to me how it was humiliation and peer pressure from girls and women that led Ali's grandmother to take her and her sister to get their external genitals removed. Her father, for all of his patriarchal, tribal and Islamist feelings, was against female circumcision, and thought of it as a barbaric relic of an earlier age.

 

FYI, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is renown as being a liberated feminist who is opposed to Islam so you might not want to take her opinion as the guideline for how millions of women feel about their religion. Just a thought.

[Osmosis Mom]

In defense of Islam, most of these places are still very tribal in origin, whereas conservative Christian sects generally must make their peace with the secular society in which they live. And there are examples of Islamic countries such as Tunisia and Turkey where women work, drive, walk with heads uncovered without fear of abuse, etc.

 

Having said that, I mostly agree with what you wrote. I don't understand why the West gets so worked up about some human rights issues (Tienanmen Square, Apartheid, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans), while completely ignoring 100 million untouchables in India, slavery in some parts of Africa, and the oppression of the basic human rights of tens of millions of women throughout North Africa and the Middle East.

 

 

 

Wait a bit, this is almost funny in its sadness. So, were you saying that all problems in the world are due to Islam and that the apparent proof to behold is initially the burqa??

 

You probably didn't meant that. I can only reiterate that culture and lack of education (in their own religion) sometimes stand in the way for people to execute their religion righteously or for many to stand up for their rights (as given by their religion).

 

It seems a few Muslims have tried to give our points of view about the issues here, but some pf the posters are just reiterating their points and not at all ackowledging the dialogue here. Perhaps this is not a coincidence, but again an example of prejudice and/or stereotyping?

[mommaduck]

The Mennonites have choices. Many women in burquas do not.

 

I dont' care if they ride a donkey or sit on the left of a cart. I dont' care if their faith establishes the male as head of a household with specific duties for wife & husband. I don't care if they smoke in front of a mud hut.... as long as they have the opportunity to make choices and decisions. It is also being assumed that women who take on a "home" role & men are final decision makers are suppressed and abused. Clear roles in a family or business are good BUT should be accepted by both spouses.

 

All families adopt different models... sadly in an agricultural society, the man is more valuable because he is providing the major source of their income. (no less devastating in the loss of a child or wife). We "mainstreamers" often carry more LIFE INS on the biggest bread winner - does that mean the possible stay at home mom has not value ot her family. (no way)

 

I am refering to women being ENSLAVED and have no where to turn. Their ankles hit with whips if a man happens to see it... they can't buy from the market without male escorts... they can't have doctors... they can't testify in court even when raped.... often it is assumed they caused the rape... and they can't even go to basic school.

 

You can't even begin to level that on Mennonites, Amish, and other groups where men & women may follow traditional or relegious models of clothing or family structure. They can leave.... and wont' be stoned.;) Sorry OP... this is off on a rabbit trail! (we need a rabbit smiley!)

 

You think women in Mennonite communities have choices?! Honey, I've been there, lived it, and still live around it as well as having family in it. The straw that broke this camel's back was my "reading too much" and being told that I should "take anti-depressants to help you conform". I could tell you enough stories to make your ears fall off. Women are expendable and I swear I barely escaped that particular community with my life. Women are to be controlled, not well educated, and heaven forbid they hold an opinion that goes against church gossip. (and yes, I'm speaking about the mainline ultra conservative mennonites...not the liberals)

Edited July 27, 2009 by mommaduck

[Kate in Arabia]

 

And there are examples of Islamic countries such as Tunisia and Turkey where women work, drive, walk with heads uncovered without fear of abuse, etc.

Turkey and Tunisia have the opposite problem. There you can't go into public buildings wearing a headscarf, they have been banned. Women can't attend university in Turkey with their heads covered. Women in Tunisia have been stopped in the street by the police and required to remove their headscarves. Exactly how is this liberating for women? It's still a government dictating how a woman dresses. Edited July 27, 2009 by Kate in Arabia
typo

[mommaduck]

Turkey and Tunisia have the opposite problem. There you can't go into public buildings wearing a headscarf, they have been banned. Women can't attend university in Turkey with their heads covered. Women in Tunisia have been stopped in the street by the police and required to move their headscarves. Exactly how is this liberating for women? It's still a government dictating how a woman dresses.

 

France has done the same in their schools. I believe headcoverings and jewelry of any religious significance have been banned. That trespasses on religious freedom.

[Geo]

Sequins and bobbles are permitted because in all honesty, that is not what men lust after. I can respect modesty, but I have always struggled with the Burqa. The men in those societies believe that it's the woman's fault if he lusts after her (fear). There seems to be no male responsibility in it, except to keep the women covered up so as not to bring him shame (guilt). As far as the double standard, that is to be expected when the rules are made by those who are motivated by self-interest. I have no doubt that many of the women have embraced this cultural/religious practice as an expression of their personal holiness and are truly noble women at heart.

For the rest, it is an extreme legalism that is imposed upon them and is a symbol of their oppression.

 

 

Geo

[mommaduck]

Sequins and bobbles are permitted because in all honesty, that is not what men lust after. I can respect modesty, but I have always struggled with the Burqa. The men in those societies believe that it's the woman's fault if he lusts after her (fear). There seems to be no male responsibility in it, except to keep the women covered up so as not to bring him shame (guilt). As far as the double standard, that is to be expected when the rules are made by those who are motivated by self-interest. I have no doubt that many of the women have embraced this cultural/religious practice as an expression of their personal holiness and are truly noble women at heart.

For the rest, it is an extreme legalism that is imposed upon them and is a symbol of their oppression.

 

 

Geo

 

Do you believe this way about Christian and Jewish women that dress modestly and cover their heads?

[Geo]

France has done the same in their schools. I believe headcoverings and jewelry of any religious significance have been banned. That trespasses on religious freedom.

 

I have no knowledge as to why that would be the case, except...could those countries be trying to discourage mohammedism, therefore avoiding the presence of extremists?

 

Geo

[Kate in Arabia]

 

I have no knowledge as to why that would be the case, except...could those countries be trying to discourage mohammedism, therefore avoiding the presence of extremists?

What is that?

[mommaduck]

I have no knowledge as to why that would be the case, except...could those countries be trying to discourage mohammedism, therefore avoiding the presence of extremists?

 

Geo

 

Christians have also been banned from wearing crosses to school. So this is an ban against ALL faiths. It's an attempt to "keep faith at home and out of the secular sphere" which shows a complete misunderstanding of what Faith is.

[Geo]

Jut came to me...France is socialististic. Socialism always puts the "greater good" of society over individual freedom. Yep, that's probably it.

Well, probably a mix of both, acually.

 

 

Geo

[KingM]

Wait a bit, this is almost funny in its sadness. So, were you saying that all problems in the world are due to Islam and that the apparent proof to behold is initially the burqa??

 

Uhm, noooo. Look at my example. 100 million untouchables in India. In fact, some untouchables join Islam or Christianity in order to escape the caste system. Islam is definitely not the problem.

 

And as I said, I've traveled through relatively secular regions of North Africa and met all types. Of course many people use Islam as an excuse to justify rape, violence, and oppression of women, but they would probably do the same thing if they were Christian or some other religion. The problem, in my opinion, is about 90% tribal, uneducated populations, and not the religion.

[KingM]

Do you believe this way about Christian and Jewish women that dress modestly and cover their heads?

 

There's a huge difference between covering the head and requiring someone to cover every inch of flesh.

 

But in any event, I still don't like the rule so long as it requires different standards of men and women. Is a woman's hair somehow erotic enough to tempt men to sin and not the reverse?

 

And why does it matter anyway? Why is it a woman's responsibility to keep a man's thoughts pure?

[KingM]

FYI, Ayaan Hirsi Ali is renown as being a liberated feminist who is opposed to Islam so you might not want to take her opinion as the guideline for how millions of women feel about their religion. Just a thought.

 

Have you read her book? She doesn't make this claim. It's an autobiography of what came about from her own upbringing. She is very harsh on the tribal nature of her Somali upbringing, but mostly says that people are using Islam to justify poor behavior. And even so, she spends a good portion of the book giving justifications as to why certain people behaved in a way that we would find barbaric. I thought she was very understanding.

[Osmosis Mom]

There's a huge difference between covering the head and requiring someone to cover every inch of flesh.

 

But in any event, I still don't like the rule so long as it requires different standards of men and women. Is a woman's hair somehow erotic enough to tempt men to sin and not the reverse?

 

And why does it matter anyway? Why is it a woman's responsibility to keep a man's thoughts pure?

 

From an Islamic point of view, then man is also responsible for himself as for his thoughts. Thus, fx. he can't have private time with his wife and think of someone else (that would be a sin). He has to consciously direct his thoughts AND acts towards what has been allowed to us (and as thus marital relations are high acts of obedience towards God and are rewarded highly).

[mommaduck]

There's a huge difference between covering the head and requiring someone to cover every inch of flesh.

 

But in any event, I still don't like the rule so long as it requires different standards of men and women. Is a woman's hair somehow erotic enough to tempt men to sin and not the reverse?

 

And why does it matter anyway? Why is it a woman's responsibility to keep a man's thoughts pure?

 

Covering the hair, for Christians and I believe Jews, is not an attempt to "keep men from sinning". For Christians it is #1 due to a command that has to do with prayer, order in the church, and because of the angels #2 for some modesty. For Jewish women, I'm not certain if #1 applies, but #2 does as tznius. Modesty in the manner that we keep certain parts of ourselves for our husband's viewing only...just as I wouldn't walk around with my thighs or breasts showing for the world to see, male or female. Regardless how another views these things, it's more a matter of what the individual CHOOSES to save for her beloved alone.

 

 

There is no difference in a woman choosing to cover her head and choosing to cover her entire body. There is a difference between a woman choosing to do these things because she is drawn to them through her faith vs someone commanding her to or not to in opposition of her faith. I would not be offended by going into a country that requires a woman to be fully covered and being told I must cover. It does not go against my faith. I might be offended if I went into a country and was told that I'm not permitted to cover my head if that did go against my faith.

 

 

The problem is, people many times assume oppression where there is none and at other times assume freedom and piousness where there is not.

Edited July 27, 2009 by mommaduck

[Osmosis Mom]

Well, covering of the woman's physical beauty/attributes is as much for her own benefit as for that of MAN. It is not only a physical thing that reminds her to not go astray/flirt/think of other men, but is also a spiritual thing. We believe God has requested these things of us.

[silvermine]

All of the muslim women I know choose to cover or not. Just like I choose to not wear a bikini or go naked. I don't wear mini skirts, high slits, or low cut blouses.

 

I even know a few families where some of the women cover their heads, and some do not. :) (Even outside the US)

[mommaduck]

From an Islamic point of view, then man is also responsible for himself as for his thoughts. Thus, fx. he can't have private time with his wife and think of someone else (that would be a sin). He has to consciously direct his thoughts AND acts towards what has been allowed to us (and as thus marital relations are high acts of obedience towards God and are rewarded highly).

 

Well, covering of the woman's physical beauty/attributes is as much for her own benefit as for that of MAN. It is not only a physical thing that reminds her to not go astray/flirt/think of other men, but is also a spiritual thing. We believe God has requested these things of us.

 

 

Ditto and Ditto...and I'm Christian. I believe the Jewish women I know would also agree. (I say "I believe" so as not to try to overstep and speak for them) And I have run across practicing Pagans that cover and dress modestly for various and sometimes similar reasons.

[Peek a Boo]

Not only that, but what parent wouldn't rather die than see one of his/her children killed? Whatever the local custom, I'm guessing that Mennonite and Amish fathers feel the same as everyone else about this question.

 

Remember the school shooting? we saw that your assumption [which would usually be mine too] was quite inaccurate. How they feel is not held to the same standard as what they believe.

 

unfortunately, sheer practicality reveals that it is easier to lose 5 or 6 "replaceable" people than 1 that is already well-trained and doing most of the work. Or --akin to the discussion about aborting a zygote vs a 12 weeker-- there is value placed on human life based on age.