funschooler5 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 I'm looking for a secular science curriculum for my 11 and 9 yr olds. I was planning on getting Noeo Chemistry II (my DD will be 12 by the time we'd start this, but she's never had any Chemistry before, so I'm hoping this will be the right level for her.) I saw Noeo mentioned on one of the secular curriculum threads last week, but I noticed there are some religious references on their "about us" page, and I wanted to make sure there wasn't a lot of that in the actual curriculum. Any info would be appreciated, thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 NOEO is not a written curriculum, but rather a series of lesson plans. You can see from the list of books and other materials used for each level on the website that all the materials listed are secular. If you glue or tape together the introduction pages in the front of the NOEO manual, it is also completely secular. We only used Physics I, but I've never seen a specific complaint about NOEO aside from the Introduction. However, the Introduction is sufficient for some to avoid NOEO, and I understand that. I wouldn't ever use RS4K because of its author's associations with the ID community, but some other secular homeschoolers don't have a problem with that. We all have to draw our own lines and decide when to extend the benefit of the doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funschooler5 Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 NOEO is not a written curriculum, but rather a series of lesson plans. You can see from the list of books and other materials used for each level on the website that all the materials listed are secular. If you glue or tape together the introduction pages in the front of the NOEO manual, it is also completely secular. We only used Physics I, but I've never seen a specific complaint about NOEO aside from the Introduction. However, the Introduction is sufficient for some to avoid NOEO, and I understand that. I wouldn't ever use RS4K because of its author's associations with the ID community, but some other secular homeschoolers don't have a problem with that. We all have to draw our own lines and decide when to extend the benefit of the doubt. Thanks! That's just what I wanted to know. We can definitely just skip the introduction part. I was impressed by the book selection, so I think we'll go ahead with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristenS Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Ditto, they are Christian but leave any important discussions purely up to the parents. Other than intro parent pages, I don't recall there being any Christian references throughout the year (which I would've actually liked a few of, or alternate book suggestions, or something). That said, my kids LOVED Bio I and we're going to try Chem I this year. But I do advocate opening and checking EVERY experiment kit you get, to make sure all materials are present. They get the kits from the Young Scientists Club, and this year we got a kit where the instructions are missing a page ... it simply didn't print. They (Noeo) have been great and even sent me a second kit, but it's also messed up, so clearly the YSC has some issues at their end. Noeo is working on it. (It's kit 5 in the Chem set, for anyone interested. Page two of the adult instructions is just blank. Page 3 is labelled as intentionally blank. The kids' pages show way more experiments that mere parent page 1 includes.) Rather find out early than the week I pull it out to use it! Anyway, there's also a Noeo yahoo group, which can be handy if you're a science jinx like me and the laws of science simply won't perform in your vicinity. LOL. It was nice to compare notes and get hints from other parents at a few points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funschooler5 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 Ditto, they are Christian but leave any important discussions purely up to the parents. Other than intro parent pages, I don't recall there being any Christian references throughout the year (which I would've actually liked a few of, or alternate book suggestions, or something). That said, my kids LOVED Bio I and we're going to try Chem I this year. But I do advocate opening and checking EVERY experiment kit you get, to make sure all materials are present. They get the kits from the Young Scientists Club, and this year we got a kit where the instructions are missing a page ... it simply didn't print. They (Noeo) have been great and even sent me a second kit, but it's also messed up, so clearly the YSC has some issues at their end. Noeo is working on it. (It's kit 5 in the Chem set, for anyone interested. Page two of the adult instructions is just blank. Page 3 is labelled as intentionally blank. The kids' pages show way more experiments that mere parent page 1 includes.) Rather find out early than the week I pull it out to use it! Anyway, there's also a Noeo yahoo group, which can be handy if you're a science jinx like me and the laws of science simply won't perform in your vicinity. LOL. It was nice to compare notes and get hints from other parents at a few points. Thanks for the info! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 What if programs are "secular" do the authors find it necessary to make a declaration of faith in the introductions? I won't purchase such materials. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 What if programs are "secular" do the authors find it necessary to make a declaration of faith in the introductions? I won't purchase such materials. Bill Why not? isn't that what an INTRODUCTION is about? isn't learning about the POV of an author --any author-- a reasonable expectation?:confused: i certainly don't have to agree w/ the life perspectives of authors, but one's work should be judged by their actual WORK, otherwise several major scientists would immediately become boycotted. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satori Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 What if programs are "secular" do the authors find it necessary to make a declaration of faith in the introductions? I won't purchase such materials. Bill :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 What if programs are "secular" do the authors find it necessary to make a declaration of faith in the introductions?FWIW, my reading of the introduction is that he's encouraging Christians not to shun secular science out-of-hand, rather than making a declaration of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 FWIW, my reading of the introduction is that he's encouraging Christians not to shun secular science out-of-hand, rather than making a declaration of faith. *GASP* what a filthy deceiving rat!!!! How dare he! [insert tongue in cheek smilie here]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 *GASP* what a filthy deceiving rat!!!!How dare he! [insert tongue in cheek smilie here]. :tongue_smilie: Well, I should have probably inserted "purpose" in there somewhere... he's certainly a Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 FWIW, my reading of the introduction is that he's encouraging Christians not to shun secular science out-of-hand, rather than making a declaration of faith. That's a sad commentary on the standing of science in the home education community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 That's a sad commentary on the standing of science in the home education community. so is dismissing an entire curriculum because of someone professing a FAITH in an INTRODUCTION. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 so is dismissing an entire curriculum because of someone professing a FAITH in an INTRODUCTION. Why? What place does an author's faith position have in a science text? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Why? What place does an author's faith position have in a science text? What's the point of an introduction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 What's the point of an introduction? I dunno. To introduce the program? It's certainly the wrong place to bring up their personal religion beliefs IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I dunno. To introduce the program? It's certainly the wrong place to bring up their personal religion beliefs IMO. So you wouldn't want to know anything about the person writing the program?? and when they DON't state their personal beliefs upfront, you chastise them for that too? so which is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 So you wouldn't want to know anything about the person writing the program?? and when they DON't state their personal beliefs upfront, you chastise them for that too? so which is it? Every curriculum publisher has a website these days. That is an appropriate place to make their positions clear. I don't need (or want) religious intrusions in my child's books. Or I will simply not purchase them. Just as I won't purchase works that push an anti-religious "Objectivist" philosophy. Speaking of having it both ways my dear. How do you reconcile that one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Every curriculum publisher has a website these days. That is an appropriate place to make their positions clear. I don't need (or want) religious intrusions in my child's books. Or I will simply not purchase them. Just as I won't purchase works that push an anti-religious "Objectivist" philosophy. Speaking of having it both ways my dear. How do you reconcile that one? Not every client has access to websites. Our rural county is full of people who still come to the library to access the internet and check email. they are usually on time limits too. I find it a sad state of a person's ability to interact with the world at large to consider someone stating their own views in an introduction as an intrusion -especially in a text that is designed for an ADULT. How do I reconcile what? That Pure Objectivism is anti-religious? I simply take the best parts and look to see those parts applied. I do that w/ the author of The God Delusion too ;) I've mentioned before that I don't hold to every point of Objectivism. Keep up, Bill! :D It also considers abortion ok. I find their "contract with the gvt" point trying to make a distinction between a born child and one still in utero to be quite anti-science and illogical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Every curriculum publisher has a website these days. That is an appropriate place to make their positions clear. and yet you STILL railed against the author of a secular curriculum stating her views on her own website. puh-leeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 and yet you STILL railed against the author of a secular curriculum stating her views on her own website. puh-leeze. Who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Who? http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107994&page=4 actually, your argument was that she DOESN't state them [which is what i said earlier]. and then when you're presented w/ an author that does, you still aren't pleased. So again: which is it? Would you be willing to buy a secular science curriculum from an avowed Christian who is straightforward about their faith on their website? Or have you already decided to condemn the work based on the author's beliefs? And how scientific is THAT?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107994&page=4 actually, your argument was that she DOESN't state them [which is what i said earlier]. and then when you're presented w/ an author that does, you still aren't pleased. So again: which is it? Are you talking about the author of RS4Kids? She hides her ID/creationist ties while with a very care parsing of words attempting to create a very deliberate misimpression that she has no stand on creationism. It's false and very dishonest of her. Would you be willing to buy a secular science curriculum from an avowed Christian who is straightforward about their faith on their website? Sure. If they didn't bring their personal religious beliefs into the texts in either introductions or the body of the texts. And they didn't let their religious beliefs affect the content, including the avoidance of elements that are critical aspects of science. And I thought it was top notch. Why not? But I have grown suspicious of publishers with hidden agendas in the home school market, and with good reason. Too many author/publishers have serious axes to grind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Are you talking about the author of RS4Kids? She hides her ID/creationist ties while with a very care parsing of words creates a deliberate misimpression that she has no stand on creationism. It's false and very dishonest of her. Not at all straight-forward. More than that deliberately misleading. you call it "hiding" but then call for people NOT bringing religion into their programs. or to put it your way: What place does an author's faith position have in a science text? indeed, what place does an author's faith have even on a website designed to support said text? Sure. If they didn't bring their personal religious beliefs into the texts in either introductions or the body of the texts. And they didn't let their religious beliefs affect the content, including the avoidance of elements that are critical aspects of science. And I thought it was top notch. Why not? But I have grown suspicious of publishers with hidden agendas in the home school market, and with good reason. Too many author/publishers have serious axes to grind. Talk about axes to grind.....:lol: I don't buy that for a second. Your statements on this board lead me to believe you are hiding behind a statement in an introduction --the part that's supposed to TELL YOU about the program, including the author if they choose to add that-- to mask your own anti-religious views. "Why not?" --because your posts on this board have consistently come down on the side against any Christian that is willing to look at science objectively. [little 'o' ;)...] because you have so many axes to grind about Christians, conservatives, and capitalism that you won't even consider a curriculum because of a statement in an introduction. Talk about fearful. i find it amazing that there are more Christians willing to seek out secular materials that might go against their faith than there are secular folk who are willing to really study what Christians believe scientifically and why. In short, i think your statement is either insincere or you have no idea where you REALLY draw the line. If I were to do w/ science and the author of The God Delusion what you do w/a statement in an introduction or an author who has specifically decided to keep her faith personal, I'd lose out on some pretty good stuff. I'm glad I know better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Just one other point of information: the introduction is not for the student, but rather for the parent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) What if programs are "secular" do the authors find it necessary to make a declaration of faith in the introductions? Pure and simple marketing. They know that there is a substantial section of the homeschooling community who won't buy anything unless it has the word "Christian" written on it prominently on it in some manner, whether it has anything to do with the subject matter and the way it's treated or not (there is a section who won't buy anything that has the word "Christian" on it anywhere, regardless of the way in which it is presented but that section is very small from what I see). They are trying to appeal to everyone to get maximum sales. Edited June 25, 2009 by KarenNC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msjones Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Pure and simple marketing. They know that there is a substantial section of the homeschooling community who won't buy anything unless it has the word "Christian" written on it prominently on it in some manner, whether it has anything to do with the subject matter and the way it's treated or not (there is a section who won't buy anything that has the word "Christian" on it anywhere, regardless of the way in which it is presented but that section is very small from what I see). They are trying to appeal to everyone to get maximum sales. Good point. I want a secular science program, but don't mind the sort of intro that off-puts Spycar so badly. I bought Noeo Chemistry and wanted to be reimbursed through our public school hs resource center. All I had to do was slice out the intro page with my exacto knife; it was approved as secular, and I got my money. So, they have managed to please everyone. At least in this situation. It would be great entertainment to have Peekaboo and Spycar over for dinner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 If I were to do w/ science and the author of The God Delusion what you do w/a statement in an introduction or an author who has specifically decided to keep her faith personal, I'd lose out on some pretty good stuff. I'm glad I know better. Well if the author of the God Delusion wrote a science series and included commentary in the introduction espousing his belief that religion is dangerous and irrational, and God(s) non-existent, I would like-wise take a pass on such materials. I don't see science materials as an opportunity for an author to "preach" his or her faith (or anti-faith) position to me and my family. And your characterization of my attitudes is flat-out wrong and insulting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satori Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 For me, I am thinking of this in two ways. 1. For the past 4 years (sold it last fall), I had a large online business and my customers loved me. (I did almost a million dollars in sales my first full year.) I believed that I should remain totally neutral on my website, and even on all the forums I visited. So when I visit online shops that have a religious or political agenda or "introduction", I simply don't believe that's professional and chose not to shop there. It is my money, and I can support who I want, not someone who turns me off at "hello". 2. Science for me, MUST be 110% secular. I don't want the slightest chance of hidden creationism/ID ideas creeping in. Science is the study of the natural world, not the supernatural world. Even though I'm pretty sure Noeo Science doesn't tout creationism/ID, I'd be worried they'd be leaving some science out, or avoiding some true science. (If they do teach true science, let me know.) Even at 4 years old, my daughter understands the basic concepts of evolutionary biology and that some things take millions/billions of years, and I want to study science that teaches that. ================================================ So for me, personally, science should be completely secular. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I'm sure if I had put on my front page that my online shop is run by an atheist who believes in evolution, supporting Obama, that is vegetarian, there would have been customers that would be outraged and refused to shop there. That is their choice! It is their money and time and they can choose to support who they want. ================================================ I do admit Noeo Science looks kinda cool, but I have a hard time getting past the religious page. So I'm going to look at other programs first. True secular curriculums that are done well need to be supported, the industry is dominated by religious curriculums. OTHER subjects, I *might* be able to handle a tiny religious slant. I'm going to be using SOTW for example. I'll just leave out a few chapters and add in my own materials to balance the slant out. Another example, I'm using an online scheduling system with bible verses on the front page. It took me a week to be able to swallow that and check it out, now I'm happily using it. But it isn't going to be teaching my daughter any slanted beliefs. But again, science is very important for me to know 110% that it is secular. PERSONAL Now, on to more personal stuff. I have many religious and a few secular friends. I don't really care what people write on their personal websites and blogs. I visit the good ones no matter if they have a bible verse up there and no matter what they believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 "Why not?" --because your posts on this board have consistently come down on the side against any Christian that is willing to look at science objectively. [little 'o' ;)...] because you have so many axes to grind about Christians, conservatives, and capitalism that you won't even consider a curriculum because of a statement in an introduction. Talk about fearful. I'm Christian and I've ruled out Noeo for the same reason as Bill. The problem with the statement of faith in a homeschool curriculum is that too often it's code for the fact that there will be content a lot of homeschoolers don't feel is scientific or good science will be excluded in order to appeal to certain Christian homeschoolers. If those of us who are want secular materials want to ensure a healthy, rich market for secular materials then we'd do best to pass on material made for or made not to offend certain Christian homeschoolers. i find it amazing that there are more Christians willing to seek out secular materials that might go against their faith than there are secular folk who are willing to really study what Christians believe scientifically and why. I think most secular folk can find out what most Christians believe scientifically by sticking to secular science sources. ID and creationism is a minority position in the world wide Christian community after all. I'm betting most secular parents do deal with creationism and ID in some manner but usually under the banner of religion rather then science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 But I have grown suspicious of publishers with hidden agendas in the home school market, and with good reason. Too many author/publishers have serious axes to grind. Agreed. I think it's the experience of being burned too many times for me. You order something that looks fantastic and the when you get it you find bible verses on every page or views espoused that have nothing to do with the subject, etc. It gets frustrating and I'd venture to guess it's not something some of the more conservative Christians experience because it lines up with their values and beliefs. Regardless, it does get to the point where any hint of religion sends off the alarm bells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I'm Christian and I've ruled out Noeo for the same reason as Bill. The problem with the statement of faith in a homeschool curriculum is that too often it's code for the fact that there will be content a lot of homeschoolers don't feel is scientific or good science will be excluded in order to appeal to certain Christian homeschoolers. Here are the relevant passages from the three page "Welcome" section of Physics I (2006 copyright): The essence of science is simply observing and describing God's creation. When scientists make a new discovery, they are seeing another part of creation revealed. Romans 1:20 tells us that His attributes, power, and divine nature are all clearly seen in what has been made. While some scientists deny that their discoveries are evidence of God's creation, that are many that do recognize His attributes in all of creation. Our children should therefore not be protected from science because of some scientific theories that deny God. They should instead be immersed in the science so that 'his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature' will be clearly seen. ... Occasionally a book may introduce a particular secular viewpoint. We view these times as an opportunity for discussions and encourage you not to skip over or 'cover up' this information. We do not provide 'canned' answer for these discussions, but encourage instructors to study the issues for themselves and to pray for guidance and understanding in providing answers to each student's unique questions. Just as Creation is orderly and well organized, we think a good science curriculum should follow an orderly design. [Followed by the layout of the overall program.] I'd be curious to know if there are referenced to evolution in any of the Biology modules. Evolution is covered in some of the books used. We didn't particularly like NOEO, and so didn't continue with it after Physics I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redheadeddaughter Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 before I read a book. Now if I'm getting a whole slew of materials and basically trusting them to pick appropriate books and resources for my child's age and interest I REALLY want to know their bias. And everyone has a bias. Have you ever met someone completely neutral? I, thankfully, have not. So please, authors (are you listening?), tell me where you stand so I can make my choices - informed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemykids Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I am writing a neutral science curriculum. Personally I believe that my beliefs have little to do with the science books I choose. I vastly prefer using secular material. I strongly believe that religion should be taught separately. Our children are intelligent enough to be presented with opposing views to our belief system. The parent should present both sides of the argument, teaching the children to reason and think for themselves. Most science encyclopedias will have evolution in them, I personally do not believe in evolution, but I will schedule the pages anyway. You will not find any reference to evolution in my IG, but a parent can easily expand on the topic themselves if they wish, after reading it in the encyclopedia. (and they should) I don’t feel it’s necessary to spell out my stand on religion; I am creating a secular program. What place does religion have in it? None. This is true for the early grammar years. I have not contemplated how I will carry it out in the future. I would like to try to remain neutral throughout any additional years, but I will have to see if that is feasible or not as the years pass. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 For me, I am thinking of this in two ways. 1. For the past 4 years (sold it last fall), I had a large online business and my customers loved me. (I did almost a million dollars in sales my first full year.) I believed that I should remain totally neutral on my website, and even on all the forums I visited. So when I visit online shops that have a religious or political agenda or "introduction", I simply don't believe that's professional and chose not to shop there. It is my money, and I can support who I want, not someone who turns me off at "hello". 2. Science for me, MUST be 110% secular. I don't want the slightest chance of hidden creationism/ID ideas creeping in. Science is the study of the natural world, not the supernatural world. Even though I'm pretty sure Noeo Science doesn't tout creationism/ID, I'd be worried they'd be leaving some science out, or avoiding some true science. (If they do teach true science, let me know.) Even at 4 years old, my daughter understands the basic concepts of evolutionary biology and that some things take millions/billions of years, and I want to study science that teaches that. ================================================ So for me, personally, science should be completely secular. We are all entitled to our own opinions. I'm sure if I had put on my front page that my online shop is run by an atheist who believes in evolution, supporting Obama, that is vegetarian, there would have been customers that would be outraged and refused to shop there. That is their choice! It is their money and time and they can choose to support who they want. ================================================ I do admit Noeo Science looks kinda cool, but I have a hard time getting past the religious page. So I'm going to look at other programs first. True secular curriculums that are done well need to be supported, the industry is dominated by religious curriculums. OTHER subjects, I *might* be able to handle a tiny religious slant. I'm going to be using SOTW for example. I'll just leave out a few chapters and add in my own materials to balance the slant out. Another example, I'm using an online scheduling system with bible verses on the front page. It took me a week to be able to swallow that and check it out, now I'm happily using it. But it isn't going to be teaching my daughter any slanted beliefs. But again, science is very important for me to know 110% that it is secular. PERSONAL Now, on to more personal stuff. I have many religious and a few secular friends. I don't really care what people write on their personal websites and blogs. I visit the good ones no matter if they have a bible verse up there and no matter what they believe. Great post! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) For me, I am thinking of this in two ways. 1. For the past 4 years (sold it last fall), I had a large online business and my customers loved me. (I did almost a million dollars in sales my first full year.) I believed that I should remain totally neutral on my website, and even on all the forums I visited. Well then, Spycar didn't call you dishonest with a hidden agenda? I'm sure if I had put on my front page that my online shop is run by an atheist who believes in evolution, supporting Obama, that is vegetarian, there would have been customers that would be outraged and refused to shop there. That is their choice! It is their money and time and they can choose to support who they want. Or you could put the opposite, and Spycar would be outraged and refuse to shop there. ;) :lol: Edited June 25, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 (edited) I am writing a neutral science curriculum. Personally I believe that my beliefs have little to do with the science books I choose. I vastly prefer using secular material. I strongly believe that religion should be taught separately. Our children are intelligent enough to be presented with opposing views to our belief system. The parent should present both sides of the argument, teaching the children to reason and think for themselves. :iagree:I hope you are successful. You can't please everyone (or some people at all). I vastly prefer using secular material. Once again, :iagree: It is more confusing to work with Christian curricula that don't line up with our beliefs. It is easier to work with secular materials and add in our beliefs the way I see fit. Unfortunately, it is more difficult to find secular materials and have a variety to choose from. Just another strangeness in this secular debate: sometimes I am shocked to see some members here using TWTM and LCC, as these were written by Christians. Edited June 25, 2009 by Lovedtodeath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funschooler5 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 Okay, now I'm wavering back and forth... It's easy for us to cut out any religious content (especially if it's only in the introduction). And we'd just be buying Chemistry, so hopefully there wouldn't be any religous references in that. But...if there is a secular equivilant, I'd definitely like to support that. We've tried Prentice Hall, but it was to "textbooky" for my kids. Those of you that decided against using Noeo, what did you use instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amsunshine Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Those of you that decided against using Noeo, what did you use instead? We decided against Noeo and are going with REAL Science Odyssey by Pandia Press. It is secular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 And we'd just be buying Chemistry, so hopefully there wouldn't be any religous references in that.All the materials used in NOEO are secular, and the author does not provide extra content, only lesson plans and scheduling. My only concern would be whether evolution is explicitly covered in Biology, but that's always easy to add in. I would strongly encourage you to look at The Elements and Carbon Chemistry by Ellen McHenry, however; they are both fantastic programs. She's working on a second level of The Elements as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemykids Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 The Elements; I have to vouch for this program! Excellent choice, my chemistry won’t be available for a loong time anyway. tee hee! I hope to continue, but I’m also looking forward to creating early elementary LA secular materials. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funschooler5 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 We decided against Noeo and are going with REAL Science Odyssey by Pandia Press. It is secular. We tried REAL Science Odyssey, but it just didn't click with my kids, for some reason. We'd also need a Level 2, and I don't think they have that out yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 We tried REAL Science Odyssey, but it just didn't click with my kids, for some reason. We'd also need a Level 2, and I don't think they have that out yet.We did the Life module. I liked it, and appreciated its hands on nature, but it was a bit too simplistic for DD the Elder's needs. I'll probably use it with DD the Younger next year. I'm going to put a plug in for these. I'll bet your kids would have a blast with the projects. Since the last time I checked Amazon, the "Search Inside" feature has been added to each of them. :D The Art of Construction: Projects and Principles for Beginning Engineers and Architects Engineering the City: How Infrastructure Works Earthquakes, Volcanoes, and Tsunamis: Projects and Principles for Beginning Geologists The Science of Life: Projects and Principles for Beginning Biologists Have you looked at Singapore Science? DD finished the Gr3-6 series and we were generally pleased with it, especially how it integrated concepts. I haven't yet looked at the next level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funschooler5 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 All the materials used in NOEO are secular, and the author does not provide extra content, only lesson plans and scheduling. My only concern would be whether evolution is explicitly covered in Biology, but that's always easy to add in. I would strongly encourage you to look at The Elements and Carbon Chemistry by Ellen McHenry, however; they are both fantastic programs. She's working on a second level of The Elements as well. Ooh, thanks for posting this! I checked out the sample chapter of The Elements, and this seems like it would be a great fit for my kids. They don't really like the standard "read pages 5-6, draw a diagram, fill in the standard experiment sheet" type of curriculum. This one seems to really "talk" to them, and they'd love the illustrations! Do you know if there is a materials list somewhere on the website? I couldn't seem to find one. Just wondering if there are a lot of experiments or books we'd also need to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Do you know if there is a materials list somewhere on the website? I couldn't seem to find one. Just wondering if there are a lot of experiments or books we'd also need to buy.There aren't many experiments in The Elements. The most complicated project was the electrolysis of water, and that was optional. You need a 9V battery, copper wire and two graphite pencils. It's a complete curriculum, so no additional books are required. The only thing I would add would be either the card deck, the wall chart, or the lenticular poster from here. The periodic table that comes with The Elements is pretty flimsy. (However, I'd recommend these no matter what program you chose... they're incredible.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funschooler5 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 We did the Life module. I liked it, and appreciated its hands on nature, but it was a bit too simplistic for DD the Elder's needs. I'll probably use it with DD the Younger next year. I'm going to put a plug in for these. I'll bet your kids would have a blast with the projects. Since the last time I checked Amazon, the "Search Inside" feature has been added to each of them. :D The Art of Construction: Projects and Principles for Beginning Engineers and Architects Engineering the City: How Infrastructure Works Earthquakes, Volcanoes, and Tsunamis: Projects and Principles for Beginning Geologists The Science of Life: Projects and Principles for Beginning Biologists Have you looked at Singapore Science? DD finished the Gr3-6 series and we were generally pleased with it, especially how it integrated concepts. I haven't yet looked at the next level. Okay, my Amazon wishlist just got bigger :lol:! We did try Singapore Science (wow, is there a science program I haven't tried?). It was the Early Bird science, though, I'll have to check out the later grades. After this thread, though I'm really leaning toward The Elements, with some of those books from Amazon you mentioned. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funschooler5 Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 There aren't many experiments in The Elements. The most complicated project was the electrolysis of water, and that was optional. You need a 9V battery, copper wire and two graphite pencils. It's a complete curriculum, so no additional books are required. The only thing I would add would be either the card deck, the wall chart, or the lenticular poster from here. The periodic table that comes with The Elements is pretty flimsy. (However, I'd recommend these no matter what program you chose... they're incredible.) Okay, these are cool! So neat that they show what the elements actually look like!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 We did try Singapore Science (wow, is there a science program I haven't tried?). It was the Early Bird science, though, I'll have to check out the later grades.I picked up the first book of that series ages ago and was so disappointed with its content that we didn't bother using it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Okay, these are cool! So neat that they show what the elements actually look like!! I swear I'm not on a one woman crusade to blow your budget. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Just another strangeness in this secular debate: sometimes I am shocked to see some members here using TWTM and LCC, as these were written by Christians. I think there's a distinction between a) written by a Christian, b) religous curriculum and c) written by a believer of ID/Creationism. It's the last two that generally concern people. The first doesn't really mean anything on it's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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