joannqn Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 (edited) I'm stumped as to how to deal with this problem without punishing my children, who are not the problem. My kids have finally found other kids in the neighborhood to play with. The main set of kids is Connor, Trevor, and Hannah. Sometimes two other younger girls join the group. Anyway, the threesome is pretty much always together; you can't really play with one without the others unless someone is not home. Anyway, Hannah is very poorly behaved at times. She has somewhat of an attitude that I can put up with, but if things don't go her way, she has a tendency to rage. My kids, especially my more sensitive son, have come home several times after she's ruined playtime by "being mean" or "yelling". I finally witnessed part of a rage recently. The cause was an accident but she kicked the other child several times, let out a blood-curdling scream, cried, blamed, yelled, etc. The mother said, "I don't know what to do with her. I make her stop playing and come inside but it doesn't work" and told the other kids to just stop playing with her. We called it a day and everyone went home. Yesterday, my husband witnessed a rage. They were playing keep away with his flip flops. He managed to get them back and was holding them in the air too high for the kids to reach when Hannah's necklace broke. She screamed, "You broke my necklace." He calmly told her that he didn't even touch her necklace. She proceed to cry hysterically, rocking herself, on her porch step. I asked if she physically assaulted him, but he can't remember. One of the other parents saw it and said you just have to tip-toe around her...so that's how the other families are dealing with it. So far, my kids have dealt with it by coming home when she gets bad, especially my son. My daughter can shrug it off easier than he can. The only problem with this is that they are being punished for her behavior...having to stop playing and come home while everyone else gets to continue playing. I would tell them to just play with the other two kids, but they are usually outside with Hannah before my kids go outside to join them. How would you handle it? How would you advise your kids to handle it? ETA: This isn't a once in a while thing...it's happening 1-2 times a week. Edited June 21, 2009 by joannqn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 How do your kids feel about it and how do they want to deal with it? My dd is having some trouble with a friend as well. This friendship was a concern for me, but I decided to wait and see what happened. Without any input from me, dd got fed up and said she needed a break from this person, for reasons which I understand and respect and feel are 100% valid. So I have honored that and we've simply not had any more play-dates. She said that at some point, she may want to try to talk to her and work it out. But right now, she just wants some peace. Seems reasonable to me, so I'm just trying to listen and be supportive and let her take the lead. It's hard, though, trying to decide what to do! Maybe you can talk it over with your kids and come up with a plan that you all feel comfortable with? Sorry if this isn't much help. It's the only thing that comes to my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkpan Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 First, I might not assume that this childs lack of self-control is completely voluntary. You only shared a little, but it did raise a flag as to whether there might be something else going on. But, I probably would not do anything. Let natural consequences take their course. I would encourage my dc to be kind, but to remember that they can ALWAYS choose to stop playing with someone who is not behaving appropriately. Children learn boundaries when others set them. Anyway, just me, but if my dc were not being personally attacked by this child, I would keep out of it. Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Anyway, just me, but if my dc were not being personally attacked by this child, I would keep out of it. My kids haven't been personally attacked yet. She has excluded my son from the group because he was a boy though. I'll be pretty darn mad if it happens though. DH is ready to cut all contact from just the one episode he saw. I don't want them to feel punished by not being able to play with her...and the other kids when she's with them. When the weather turns, I'll invite the nice kids over here to play inside (our outside can't even remotely compete with their outside). Of course, play time will be limited once school starts as all of the other kids are public schooled and one is in day care after school, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dobela Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 This is just so sad to me. I hate seeing children like her. It makes me wonder what has made her so angry that she feels the needs to lash out like that for attention. I want to help, but then I don't want my kids to be abused either. Sometimes with kids like this I try to be more present than I typically would. When an incident like that starts to happen, I treat them first like I would want my child treated - some redirection or some reminders of what other behavior might be more accepted. I would likely say something along the likes of "Wow, you are upset. I am going over here with the other kids until you calm down. We will be ready to play when you are more composed. If you need my help for something, just let me know." Then I would gather the kids and walk away. It wouldn't be easy though. We did have a similar child in our neighborhood for awhile and finally I told my son that he couldn't play with that child. The chance for phyical abuse, the lies that came from the child...it was just more trouble than it was worth expecially when the parent just hid behind closed doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 How old is the child that needs to develop self-control/coping strategies? >>She proceed to cry hysterically, rocking herself, on her porch step. She had too much - sensory overload. This level of crying and rocking is a self-soothing activity. Nothing can be done at this point except to let her discharge. She likely is not happy that she has lost control and would dearly love to have not done so, but she has not learned yet to understand her body and recognize when she needs to take a break or ask for drink/food. Her mama needs to help her understand herself and also to schedule more downtime in her day. She may also be needing a healthy mid-morning or mid-afternoon snack and a drink. I would definitely have my kids come home if the gal loses control and her mama doesn't bring her in for a break. If she was at my house, I would take the others off to play elsewhere, then come back and offer her a protein-based snack and a drink when she's calm and then have a friendly chat. The behavior you want to curb most is physical violence, so the chat is that you're really glad she came to play, but the rules of the house don't allow hurting others...and feeling angry is ok and if she's angry she can do 'x' (x=whatever your anger management plan is) instead of hurting her friends, 'cause friends don't hurt friends and we really want her to stay and play. The next time she comes, remind her of the plan and compliment her if she makes it through the playtime without exploding. Also give her an out for when she's feeling overloaded...perhaps there is a picnic table that could have crayons/coloring book set out so she can initiate a break when she starts feeling overwhelmed. I would also ask her mama what the snack time plan is and make sure she runs home or has something at my place before she's in need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 How old is the child that needs to develop self-control/coping strategies? She is 8, going into 3rd grade. Nearly all of the playing happens at her house or Trevor's house...so I'm not in a position, really, to do the rest of your suggestions. They live next door to each other. Our yard is much smaller than theirs and has a hill and stairs in the middle of it...so not a good place to play. Besides having a flat yard and a lot more space (double), her house has a swing set and Trevor's has a large trampoline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottakee Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Maybe give your kids some coping ideas and let them know that it is fine to come home when/if this happens. If the mom is at a loss, it could be that this child has some more going on than just a discipline issue. Some of what you say could fit with aspergers, a mood disorder, sensory disorder or other special needs. That said, do not put your own children at risk. Can you talk to the mom for ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in CA Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I'm stumped as to how to deal with this problem without punishing my children, who are not the problem. I feel sympathy for your situation, and I feel badly for that little girl, who probably needs more intervention than she's receiving now. With that said though, I think it's good to shy away from over-dramatizing the situation. It doesn't sound like "punishing your children" to have them come home when things are out of hand. It just means it's not a good time for them to play with the neighbors and they should come home. Period. In my humble opinion (which you can take fwiw, right? :) ), it's not a bad lesson at all. It shows your dc the flip-side of self-control, and teaches them to remove themselves from situations where others are showing a lack thereof. I'd just deal with it matter-of-factly, and your kids will probably take it all in stride if you do. If you choose to make it a more emotional issue of "your kids being punished", they will probably look at it that way too. I'm awfully sorry that your daily play situation is problematic. It's a bummer, for sure! :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 They do know it is okay to come home when she gets like that, but they aren't happy about it. They aren't happy to stay in that situation. But they aren't happy about coming home to our boring house while the rest of the neighborhood kids continue to play outside without them. That's why it is like punishing them. Because of her behavior, they come home where it isn't very much fun...instead of being outside in beautiful weather (that we only get for 2-3 months a year) playing with the other kids. It would be perfect if we had a swing set, trampoline, and large yard to run in. Then we'd just invite the kids we enjoy over. Unfortunately, we have the most boring house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNC Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 (edited) Sounds like she might have an issue that isn't obvious - maybe you could get to know the parents better? They may need encouragement to get her some help/diagnosis? Edited June 23, 2009 by LNC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I don't want them to feel punished by not being able to play with her It's about keeping safe around a dangerous person IMO. You can't control what your kids feel of course but maybe the way to explain it is that though this girl is a good kid in many ways she doesn't have control over herself and that makes her dangerous to be around (she was kicking a child, wasn't she?) and so when it becomes obvious that she is getting angry then it's time to walk away. It's not a punishment, it's a skill more people need these days - to know when to leave an escalating situation. Too many people would stay because there's still some fun with the other kids or because they get used to the behaviour but it's best to learn to walk away. Maybe you could even get them to ask the other kids if they want to walk away with them. Personally, I think a bit of shunning might help this girl learn that what she's doing is completely inappropriate. The girl's world needs to completely stop when she's acting up and if her mom won't do that, maybe the kids can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 (edited) I asked my kids about the explosiveness situation; my older boy (in reg. ed.) had been part of a mainstreamed special education class in third grade which had some counseling about how reg. ed. children should deal with emotionally disturbed classmates on the playground. He says the advice is good for kids that aren't classified too. His advice is to learn her triggers in both body language and verbal cues; don't provoke an incident and do leave gracefully if you determine she's going to lose control or actually does. Play with her again later when calm - extending friendship will do wonders as the kid will learn to control herself in order to have that playtime. As an eight year old, he didn't understand that last part, but trusted the adults as he knew his classmates were getting help from the counselors and the paraprofessionals would remove anyone that started to hurt others. Most of the kids weren't big enough to actually damage another kid if they did start something physical so he wasn't afraid to play with them. Oh, for your hubby. A more effective response is to collect the necklace pieces, examine and fix the necklace. Ignore the assignment of blame. Once she's regained control, use soothing words and body language to indicate that it's not going to be the end of the world that the necklace broke and likely it can be fixed. I have met some kids that are terrified of anything breaking b/c the adults at home punish severely even if the thing is poor quality or an accident happened...they will break down on the spot. Fixing if possible and intercepting the parent with an explanation is the best action there. Large equipment and a big yard aren't needed to attract kids and have fun. If you have a small space, active kid games like monkey in the middle, tag, blanket volleyball, crab soccer, hopscotch, marbles, 4 square, jacks and jump rope work well. A tennis ball can be used as a basis for many games. A wall that can be used with a ball is good as is a set of small cones or some empty 2 liter bottles. A garbage can that can be used as a playground ball basketball hoop is good too. Stomp rockets, hula hoops, and obstacle courses are fun too. So is a box or a teepee. Annie-over the vehicle is popular here too. This site has some tag variations that work for small spaces: http://www.scribd.com/doc/12005/Active-Schools-Workshop One of the funnest games my kids every played was one they learned at scouts..take 2 leftover 2X4s and some milk crates. Set up the milk crates into a course. Using the boards, cross the course without anyone in the group touching the ground or being left behind. They have a ball figuring out the routes and then just walking across without falling. Another fun one if you have a driveway, is to chalk a grid of 5 long by 5 wide squares. On paper, predetermine a few routes across the grid. Game leader holds the current route. Everyone else has to figure out what the route is. They make a line. First person steps on a square. Game leader beeps if it's wrong, silent if right. If right, take another step. If wrong, that one goes to end of line and the next guy starts. He starts at the edge and his challenge is to remember the path. Everyone on the edge can give advice, but can't put down the guy making the choices. Game is over when the group finds the successful path. Edited June 22, 2009 by lgm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 I'll counsel my daughter to suggest to the other kids about leaving all together. She's a leader enough to be able to pull this off. If that doesn't work, they can just come home for a while. Oh, for your hubby. A more effective response is to collect the necklace pieces, examine and fix the necklace.... That sounds like a great way to handle it. Unfortunately, he doesn't have that kind of patience. He expects good behavior and obedience from kids. He would examine and try to fix the necklace if she would have asked him to nicely. Large equipment and a big yard aren't needed to attract kids and have fun. If you have a small space... Thanks for the ideas. A couple of them will work in a yard. My yard is about 30 feet wide by about 20 feet wide. The 30 foot sides are my house and the sidewalk. The 20 foot sides are my neighbor's yards. The length of the rectangle is split in half by a concrete walk and set of stairs. The width of the rectangle is split in half by a short, but steep hill. Each flat area is about 15 by 6 feet. There is also a slightly dangerous steel cable anchored in one of the sections that you have to watch out for. We don't have a driveway. Usually, my kids will throw a softball back and forth or bounce a ball on the sidewalk. On hot days, we bring out a 55 liter storage container and fill it with water for them to play with. Because we live on a major arterial (lots of cars going 35+ mph), we can't play with anything that goes up in the air like stomp rockets, gliders, etc. Even playing ball has to be done in a controlled way to make sure it doesn't go into the street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in CA Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 I'll counsel my daughter to suggest to the other kids about leaving all together. She's a leader enough to be able to pull this off. If that doesn't work, they can just come home for a while. Uhm....do you think that might reflect badly on your dd? It may end up looking as though she's not a very nice kid either, if she's the instigator of taking the whole group to play at her house each time, because she doesn't like what's going on. We've seen posts here where a parent on the other end is complaining about kids who do this...come over to play and then end up taking the whole play group off to their house instead. I hope you find a solution that is positive for everyone, and you've been offered some advice in this thread that sounds good. Maybe give the ideas some time to soak in. There is no yard too small to find some fun in, though it takes some thought and preparation sometimes. The key is probably to go into this with a positive attitude, and (forgive me, please...) it doesn't sound like you're quite there yet. None of this is a "punishment" unless you choose to deal with it that way, and allow that impression to rub off on your dc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TraceyS/FL Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 She had too much - sensory overload. This level of crying and rocking is a self-soothing activity. Nothing can be done at this point except to let her discharge. She likely is not happy that she has lost control and would dearly love to have not done so, but she has not learned yet to understand her body and recognize when she needs to take a break or ask for drink/food. Her mama needs to help her understand herself and also to schedule more downtime in her day. She may also be needing a healthy mid-morning or mid-afternoon snack and a drink. :iagree: This was my first thought when reading this.... she had reached overload. We have similar incidents here, i have really been working hard at how to respond to them the last year. We have come a long way - DD now doesn't go into her room and kick the wall, she goes into the bathroom to calm down (her choice of spots btw), and will let me in to talk. Really, we have come a LONG way in the last year on this. However, outside of our home - all bets would be off. It would be like starting over.... case in point, the incident at the doctor on Thursday when she found out she needed shots. It was not on my radar she might need some - and caught me off guard totally. But i bet there is more going on than you - and perhaps the family - knows. That sounds like a great way to handle it. Unfortunately, he doesn't have that kind of patience. He expects good behavior and obedience from kids. He would examine and try to fix the necklace if she would have asked him to nicely. The problem is, depending on the underlying issue - he will never get that from this child. It's about impossible to describe to someone that hasn't been around this kind of behavior the how's and the why's of it.... trust me, i've been trying to to my DH's lawyer. Now, maybe it is all just bad/lack of parenting - which is a whole other can of worms. But because the mother has stated she doesn't know what to do, i'm guessing there is more (provided you get the feeling she is serious about having tried things). You have gotten some good ideas for working thru it - i hope they work. I know from what you have said that you really have to be overjoyed for your kids right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 Ok, I was going to reply to a few things but I've been talking about my kids in more detail. Here's what they are saying. These tantrums happen almost every other time they play with her. They say that she gets mad when she doesn't get her way, and that no one is provoking her. If one particular other girl is there, they get into little arguments that escalate. Most of the time, though, there is no warning. Her parents deal with it only sometimes. When they do deal with it, they come outside and yell at her to stop it and then go back in the house. They haven't seen any other consequences occur. I was going to respond to the comment about teaching my daughter to be a leader in leading the other kids away from the situation. I was thinking more along the lines of what was suggested by one poster. Something like, "Wow, you are really angry. We're going to go play over here. Feel free to join us when you are feeling better and ready to play again." The girl's mom has told the kids, in front of me, to just stop playing with her daughter...so I would hope that she doesn't fault the kids for doing just that. Based on what my daughter just said, it may not work anyway. She's tried suggesting to the other kids that they go play somewhere else. She says that this girl always follows them and keeps on yelling and screaming. As far as the feeling punished. My kids said that while they don't want to play with her when she's like this, they don't want to come home either. It makes them unhappy that they are missing out on playing with the other kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCA Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Honestly, why do your children have to play with this child at all?? It seems to me that this is alot of pressure to put on your children. To have to be constantly watching out for and dealing with this child! Whether or not she has medical issues or is just a very badly behaving child is irrelevant, she is obviously dangerous. And I personally would never let children around her unsupervised (without you)! Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted June 22, 2009 Author Share Posted June 22, 2009 Honestly, why do your children have to play with this child at all?? It seems to me that this is alot of pressure to put on your children. To have to be constantly watching out for and dealing with this child! Whether or not she has medical issues or is just a very badly behaving child is irrelevant, she is obviously dangerous. And I personally would never let children around her unsupervised (without you)! Just my opinion. She lives in the middle of the only other families with kids in our neighborhood. They would love to play with the other kids without her, but she is always there. It's either deal with her or go back to having no one to play with on a daily basis. It is difficult for me to always supervise right now. I'm overloaded with things I have to get done, in addition to the normal daily stuff, have a 2 year that they don't always want tagging along, and am 37 weeks pregnant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 You certainly have a lot of energy for what you have on your plate and a kind heart as well. >>It would be perfect if we had a swing set, trampoline, and large yard to run in. Then we'd just invite the kids we enjoy over. Unfortunately, we have the most boring house. If I had to do it over again, I'd stick with slide, trike/bike, sprinkler, and sandbox as essential ...the rest is ignored if there are others to play games with. Perhaps the children would enjoy some bean bag games? The bean bags can be made not to roll so it's a matter of not throwing into the road. I make bean bags out of outgrown socks..put beans in a ziploc sandwich bag, insert into sock, tie off with rubber band and then roll over sock. Easy to adjust the weights till we are happy. Some active games that would work in your space for 4 or maybe 6 children that won't go past the sidewalk: Bombardment: 2 teams defend 2 liter bottles on their sides by blocking/catching beanbags. First team to knock opponents bottles over wins. Spud (with beanbag) Steal the Bacon Drop the Handkerchief (or bean bag) What Time is It, Mr. Wolf from:http://www.utahafterschool.com/uploads/ActiveGames.doc pickle, stomp the snake,uncle sam If your sidewalk is smooth, roller skates are good for the older ones that need to move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted June 23, 2009 Share Posted June 23, 2009 I have no answers, but if my child, voluntary or not, was known to kick other children, I would be out there making sure it didn't happen. Mom is dumping her problem on the rest of the world. Poor things (all around). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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