How do you know if they are already in Logic Stage?

[irizarry4]

I am a new homeschooler. My oldest ds is going into 5th grade. I am reading TWTM, and I just don't see him as a logic stage student just yet. Maybe it's just me, because he is my son and I know what a knucklehead he can be :D. Then there are the gaps you find when they are coming home from PS.... (sigh)

 

We are using TOG Y1 in the fall, and I'm thinking Upper Grammar for him.

 

How did you decide/determine when your student transitioned into the 'logic stage'?

[Suzannah]

I used to wonder that myself. Sometime about a year or two ago, DS's sense of humor changed. He still likes good ol' slapstick and funny-sounding words as much as any 4 year-old. But he developed a subtler sense of humor, appreciated puns and irony more.

 

Blessings!

[patchfire]

I was wondering that myself... dd is a little 'young' for it, but within the last two or three months, she's started asking more theoretical questions. What cemented it, though, was that she suddenly thought the Far Side was the most hilarious thing ever... and she didn't get it at all six months ago.

[Mama Lynx]

I think it's when you start to notice them making connections on their own, and thinking more deeply about the material.

 

However, UG is a fine place for most 5th graders to be in TOG. My 5th grader did UG this year, although I had him sit in on our dialectic history discussions. He'll likely do UG for 6th too, or maybe half UG/half D as a transition year. In TOG, I think the switch depends on when they can handle the reading, and answer the questions without much frustration.

[Veritaserum]

Susan Wise Bauer spoke at our local homeschooling conference this weekend. Here's what I understood from her session. When your student shifts into asking "why" about things and questioning the world around him, that's a sign of Logic Stage. Logic Stage students are emotionally developed enough to start making more connections. Their understanding is deeper and they get really fed up and bored with Grammar level questions ("what happened"). They want to get into the whys behind a character's actions or a science experiment outcome, etc.

[MamaT]

My son is going into 5th and we will be doing TOG as well. He will be an UG student. He is definitely not in Logic stage yet. He is my 5th child, and somehow I've just "known" when they reached that stage. I would say one sign would be when they start questioning everything.

[Melissa in Australia]

I have known when mine hit logic stage . they start to try to argue with everyone. a good solid course in logic studies tends to stop the arguments, they just start pulling everyone up for fallacies instead.

[specialmama]

:iagree: My dd is 10, going into 5th (Upper Grammar) and we're also doing TOG. The last few months I've noticed an increase in her arguing. It's not arguing to be snarky or defiant, but instead of simply obeying without question, she suddenly wants to know WHY she should do xyz now, instead of later, or why she ought to do it this way or that way. She's trying to understand the world around her more. It can easily be interpretted as being argumentative, but I keep telling myself (and my dh) that the underlying cause is because she's starting to form connections, so we must simply help her with that instead of punishing the "arguments." She's also starting to bargain or compromise, thinking things through.

 

Developmentally, I've also noticed her question her identity or security in our family, for lack of a better term. For example, she became insanely jealous when a friend of hers helped her brother with something. She ran upstairs crying saying that her friend wanted to be my son's sister. That's just an example, but I've seen it creep up the last 6 or 7 weeks, this wondering who she is and trying to figure stuff out. I don't know if I articulated this example properly, as I don't quite understand it yet. :tongue_smilie: But I do see her changing!

 

Coincidentally, for those with girls, my dd developed her first "bud" about the same time these changes started creeping up. Not sure if that's standard, but that has been my observation with her. Oh, and I cried that day! :lol:

[Peela]

I didnt feel either of my kids were in logic stage till recently- and they are 13 and 15! I don't know if they are late bloomers or what.

However, that doesn't mean you can't start WTM Logic stage work in grade 5 anyway. Outlining, logic puzzles, moving to the next level of grammar etc. I only had trouble with this with my younger, who is a bit behind in some areas.

That said, you know your child and if they are just out of school, you might want to fill in some of those gaps anyway. Start him where he is at.

Make it work for you and your unique child.

But really, I dont think you need to wait for a child to suddenly be in logic stage- its a development over years.

My older flew through logic puzzles even though she wasnt interested in the 'why' behind anything. I was surprised when my younger found logic puzzles extremely difficult. He still does them- I think they are good brain exercise for him- but he had to start with very basic ones. Yet he was more interested in the "why" behind things at an earlier age than dd.

[ChileMama]

Susan Wise Bauer spoke at our local homeschooling conference this weekend. Here's what I understood from her session. When your student shifts into asking "why" about things and questioning the world around him, that's a sign of Logic Stage. Logic Stage students are emotionally developed enough to start making more connections. Their understanding is deeper and they get really fed up and bored with Grammar level questions ("what happened"). They want to get into the whys behind a character's actions or a science experiment outcome, etc.

 

Interesting food for thought. For gifted learners, the whys can come very early, far earlier than the ability to (for example) summarize or outline text as suggested in the WTM logic stage approach to history.

 

I'm planning on a somewhat hybrid approach (especially since we are also new homeschoolers and I want to start at the start with ancient history) where we'll use some grammar-level resources (such as SOW 1) but with plenty of time for reflection/discussion.

[love2read]

 

they start to try to argue with everyone.

That's a much better sign than asking "why" about everything. Some personalities ask why from the time they are very young. When they start to enter the logic stage they don't just argue to get their own way, but to prove their point. It's a different type of arguing than is seen with younger children. They start to defend their position with points outside of themselves rather than using the more imature defense that they "want' or "need" something or "everyone else" has or does it.

[babysparkler]

Interesting food for thought. For gifted learners, the whys can come very early, far earlier than the ability to (for example) summarize or outline text as suggested in the WTM logic stage approach to history.

 

I'm planning on a somewhat hybrid approach (especially since we are also new homeschoolers and I want to start at the start with ancient history) where we'll use some grammar-level resources (such as SOW 1) but with plenty of time for reflection/discussion.

 

Thanks for mentioning that... my gifted ds9 has been very much in the "whys" for about a year now and around the same time developed a very mature sense of humor and what we joke is his "lawyer-like" ability to get what he wants out of you or prove a point. He has always been ahead in "maturity" that way. What I have been wondering is "How will I know when he develops the logic stage abilities?"

Edited June 12, 2009 by babysparkler

[Brindee]

I didnt feel either of my kids were in logic stage till recently- and they are 13 and 15! I don't know if they are late bloomers or what.

Peela, thankyou for saying that!

 

My oldest was in logic stage when he was about 2!!! ;)

 

My 2nd, now age 15 seems to just be getting there now! He's been the one I have been most thankful to homeschool because of that very reason! He wouldn't have been allowed to be him, or mature at a comfortable rate, or settle in a be okay with who he is if he'd gone to school! He has matured slowly, and I'm thinking he would've gotten in a lot of trouble. When he's with his friends he turns into a clown, and goofs off. Sometimes to the point of them being embarrassed for him! :( Not that that's okay, it's just that I don't think it would've worked well for him to be in a classroom! We deal with things that need correcting, but I didn't force him to conform and be someone else to fit in! Anyway, he's made great strides this year, which has been great to see! :001_smile:

 

DD seems to be right on schedule, and is ready for the Logic stage now.

[swellmomma]

I have been wondering that too. I can't even use the argueing thing as a sign because my oldest ds has ODD and my dd9 has Conduct disorder, both are characterized by being highly arguementative(that's putting it mildly). They have been asking why for years so that doesn't work either (ds5 is huge on the why's and I know he is not in logic stage).

 

I know my ds is not in logic stage at all, the kid can not even follow a preschool tv program without struggling for comprehension/connections. Jokes are WAY over his head (where as ds5 is at the stage of making up his own ds10 never hit that). I sometimes feel like they will never hit that stage. I am having ds10 repeat grade 5 next year and dd will be doing grade 5, so we are having things like logic puzzles and such but I know they are not really in it. I am glad to hear other kids were older when they hit that stage, I am sure my ds will be closer to 15 before he hits it (he seems to be close to 3 years behind emotionally/mentally).

[trisharog]

swell momma, what is ODD and conductive disorder if you dont mind me asking?

[lilbean05]

Susan Wise Bauer spoke at our local homeschooling conference this weekend. Here's what I understood from her session. When your student shifts into asking "why" about things and questioning the world around him, that's a sign of Logic Stage. Logic Stage students are emotionally developed enough to start making more connections. Their understanding is deeper and they get really fed up and bored with Grammar level questions ("what happened"). They want to get into the whys behind a character's actions or a science experiment outcome, etc.

 

 

This is so interesting! It is difficult to determine, in my mind, when this makes sense and when it doesn't. For example, my oldest child, who will be 4 in August, is very much into asking why things happen and providing alternative solutions. Like, why can't Clara take the trip back to see Heidi (from our night time family readings)..she can just take a train and she won't be as tired. Then she can go see Heidi and no one will be sad.

 

She is a bit advanced but I know she is not emotionally advanced to be a logic learner before we have even really started school! I suppose in instances like this, you incorporate some of the logic stage into the grammar stage, just a little at a time. Or then again, perhaps I am very much confused at to what sort of logic the logic stage entails. Perhaps it is much more advanced than the creative questioning and solutions a near 4 year old creates.

[swellmomma]

swell momma, what is ODD and conductive disorder if you dont mind me asking?

 

ODD is known as oppositional defiance disorder. He has adhd too and these are common to have together. Here is a brief description, odd is much more than just a child argueing. He would fight that the sky was orange ONLY because I mentioned how blue it as. http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/children_with_oppositional_defiant_disorder

 

Conduct disorder is a different entity all together. My dd is against all authority. She lips off to cops, spent everyday in first grade in detention for disobeying the teacher, etc. She wants to be in charge of everyone and everything. http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/conduct_disorder She was diagnosed with CD at just 6, she is nearly 10 now.

 

I think the Dx of the 2 should be fliped. Ds shows almost all the symptoms of CD whereas dd only shows a cuple. They wer Dx by different shinks though. All I know is living with them is extremely stressful 80% of the time.

[katilac]

I will add to the list an increased capacity for more in-depth, independent work. All of a sudden, in 5th grade, my dd was plowing through her work like it was nothing! She's always been a hard worker and a rule follower, so it wasn't a case of being more motivated - - it was as if everything became easier almost overnight.

 

She also showed a strong desire to work on her own. She's been able to for a long time, and often did, but this past year she really came to dislike doing things like Latin translation with me and her younger sis. She most emphatically wanted to figure it out on her own, preferably in a separate room! She does not want me to guide her through it, kwim?

 

I agree that many kids start with why well before the logic stage; I think that the big difference for us is what happens after "why." Now that she is truly moving into the logic stage, she can take her initial questions well beyond a discussion with me - - she can investigate a lot more on her own, reading and pondering, sometimes coming back to discuss - - the why has always been there, but the results/output are now quite different.

 

And, oh yeah, she argues a lot :lol: