I hadn't heard about them. We're starting to use Art of Argument. :auto: off to learn more.

I wish I could help, but mostly I'm just agreeing that it's hard. My husband doesn't work nights exclusively. He works days, nights, travels the world, and works from home when he's in town. This is why we school year-round and make very few plans for school breaks. We take breaks when my husband interrupts us. It is very disruptive, but I keep reminding myself of what a blessing it is to have my husband with us. We're currently on a 3-month business trip with him, but he left this morning for another shorter business trip somewhere else. We always get more schoolwork done while he's gone. We try to work around his schedule, but it changes constantly. I've had a struggle this year with getting him to talk to me before making plans with our boys to take them out for a bike ride, etc., mid-morning, which is our prime school time. He's getting better, but it definitely requires communication! I'm not familiar with the curriculum choices you mentioned, but K and 1st grade don't need to take more than a couple of hours together. Maybe you could push the chores to after lunch or even after your husband leaves, so you could start school by 9 a.m. Could you fit in some of your chores before your husband leaves? Time cleaning together is still time together. :) To avoid homeschooling all day, maybe you could set aside 1-2 blocks of time for schoolwork. They don't have to be concurrent. You could do an hour or so in the morning (math, language arts) and an hour or two in the afternoon (crafts, projects, science, history). What is the biggest struggle? fitting in the schooling? the children's chores? your own chores? Is this because you feel you can't do any of these things while your husband is home and awake (11-3:30)? I think most of us do chores and perhaps schooling while our husbands are around. I'd probably use the children's quiet time for chores at least some of the time.

I requested this and was told it's not available. Should I try again in a month or two? Will a separate PDF of just student pages be available, like SOTW? This would be much more convenient for printing. Thank you!

Wow! I just looked at the samples of FLL 4 for the first time. This looks so much better than R&S. I think this would have saved a lot of frustration for my older son, who went through R&S 3-5. I used to be a writer and editor so understand the grammar pretty well, but this is still so helpful to me as the teacher. I thought I didn't like scripted lessons. :blushing: I like the way diagrams are taught, especially. My son did well with R&S, but it is comforting to know I'll have FLL 4 on hand for my second son when my oldest starts ALL. If Son #1 needs extra work on anything, we can go back to FLL 4 for review. He learned these things in R&S, but I think FLL just explains things in a more-clear way. Also, I'd always thought of R&S as having way too much review, but after SWB mentioned the spiral approach of FLL and ALL and after thinking more about FLL 1-2, which I've used, FLL/ALL really does seem more likely to produce long-term results. Thank you so much for this grammar program!! Now I'm just not sure I want to take a year off of grammar for Latin/Spanish. I shouldn't have told my boys that plan, 'cause now I think they'd revolt if I tried to stick English grammar back in (and I don't think I can fit grammar into the schedule now anyway). Getting excited for next year already!

:iagree: He still needs me close by, it's a lot beter at nearly 9.

My son did the A series of Mind Benders last year as a 5th grader. I think there are 4 books in the series. I assigned 3 puzzles/day, 3 days/week. He finished all of the books pretty early in the year, and we moved on to something else for logic. We used a sheet protector over the page and dry-erase markers, so my younger children can use the same books. I have since purchased a Grid Perplexors book for fun, but my son hasn't done them yet. I got it at amazon, but I think I saw them at Rainbow Resource, too.

Yep. The next four are supposed to be out around Halloween. http://www.stanleyschmidt.com/FredGauss/32%20Newest%20News.html I'm wondering -- if A-D are good for 1st and 2nd grade, maybe E-H will be 3rd-4th? I was thinking Fractions for 5th, but maybe that's just because we use MUS?

Good to know. Thanks a lot.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for chiming in!

Perfect! Thank you. I hadn't calculated laser-printing costs, but $6 or $15.95 makes this an easy choice! I'll get the PDF workbook.

I do have a laser printer. And I can tell already that I won't need to print pages that are meant only for writing narrations of dictation. We'll use regular paper. In the sample pages on amazon, it looked like there were a lot of that type of page. I tend to print as I go, anyway. Maybe a few weeks ahead but not more. For SOTW, for example, I print only 1-4 weeks worth of maps at a time. I can easily print the FLL workbook pages little by little as I see how we use them. Thank you for your help!

Thank you for this review. I just started looking into LofF yesterday, and I think my boys will love it. I'm happy to hear how your 4yo is enjoying it, especially. As of yesterday, I have a 4yo, too, and I think he'll want to be a part of this.

I should clarify that I won't have 4 students using FLL 4 at once. I just have four more children coming up to use it one at a time through the years. :D Still, I think you're right about the PDF being a better option. I don't want to have to write all of those sentences! That is good information to know. And with a PDF I can print just the pages we really need. Thanks for your help!

mMy first child started Latin in 4th grade (Lively Latin). I want to start my second son this year in 3rd grade, but I'm not sure he's ready for Lively Latin. He is a pretty good reader, but I think Lively Latin has a little too much writing for him. (There isn't a lot, but any writing is painfully slow for him.) He'll try it anyway if I can't find something better suited. What would you use for a 3rd-grade boy who's almost 9 before moving into Lively Latin in 4th grade? Is he too old for Song School Latin? Would it be a waste of time? Is there something that would be good for him for just this year but not just token Latin to say we're doing it? I'll probably have this same issue with at least one of my other boys as they get to this point. Maybe GSWL? The reason I'm wanting to start Latin in 3rd is... I just decided (if the Latin thing works out) to do this schedule for grammar: 1st - FLL 1 2nd- FLL 2 3rd- begin Latin (and continue Spanish), English: occasionally review parts of speech 4th- FLL 4 (continue Latin and Spanish) 5th-8th- ALL 1-4 (continue Latin and Spanish) Alternately, I guess we could do FLL 1-3 and skip FLL 4 for a Latin intro. I just think it would be better to have FLL 4 right before jumping into ALL. Any thoughts? (sorry of this is hijacking)

You can print pre-algebra (and lower math) worksheets here: http://www.mathusee.com/e-sources/worksheet-generator/ I'm not familiar with the other things in your signature. Sorry I can't be more helpful. Good luck getting all your printing completed! I understand that rush well enough. I had to plan what to bring to Costa Rica to "sort of do school" for three months. We have no printer here, so I was madly printing anything I might need. I've also had to do this twice before for extended and sudden trips for my husband's work. One bit of advice -- don't print too much, or you may end up having it go to waste. It's a tough balance, isn't it?

After doing some reading at this forum about FLL 3 and 4, I'm thinking I'll have my four younger boys do this: 1st grade - FLL 1 2nd- FLL 2 3rd- begin Latin (and continue Spanish), English grammar: review parts of speech 4th- FLL 4 5th-8th- ALL 1-4 My 6th-grader is on this schedule: 1st - public school 2nd- public school 3rd- R&S 3 4th- R&S 4 5th- R&S 5 6th- focus on Latin and Spanish 7th-10th- ALL 1-4 I'm really excited about grammar now! We liked Rod and Staff, but I think we'll all like FLL and ALL more.

I've decided to use FLL 4 and am wondering whether the workbook is necessary or optional. I read posts here that the FLL 3 workbook is optional, but I haven't found anything about FLL 4. I looked inside the FLL 4 workbook at amazon, and it looks like more than space to write narrations or diagram sentences. But is all of this also in the teacher's manual and easy to do on notebook paper or whiteboard? Also, if the FLL 4 workbook is required, should I buy the PDF or hard copy? I'll have four children going through this program. Does every page have to be printed, or are a lot just for copywork or dictation? (We've always used our own notebook paper for WWE and FLL 1-2.) Thanks!

This is true. Those who don't think I'm turning my children into delinquents think I'm an amazing role model. And really, more people seem to appreciate what I do than not. And this being put on a pedestal is also a bit stressful. :tongue_smilie: It's easier to ignore those who truly don't understand what homeschooling is and bash it than it is to ignore those who think I am what I wish I could be.

(I haven't read all 20+ pages yet, so maybe this has been mentioned) In California: I thought it was illegal to homeschool in California. (Nope, although there was a court case a few years ago attempting to require teacher certification. It failed.) My husband is on the phone much of the day with people all over the world. He often mentions homeschooling, and invariably they will say it sounds wonderful but is illegal in their country. They say this as though they have no doubts. Several times, I have checked the HSLDA web site for my husband, and every time I have found that homeschooling is legal in that country. Unfortunately, HSLDA doesn't have anything listed for Costa Rica. Here in Costa Rica: It's illegal to homeschool here. (I haven't been able to find out for sure whether it's legal, but I have met other homeschoolers here.) In Italy (my husband was talking to someone there for work): It's illegal to homeschool here. (Not according to the HSLDA.)

What about diagramming? Will the learning curve be too great if we skip FLL 3 and go to 4? How far does the diagramming get in FLL 3, and where does it start in FLL 4? I used R&S 3-5 with my first son. Is FLL diagramming similar?

Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions. It seems the release-dates of ALL are now perfect for all of my children!

To clarify, each week, my child should do one outline, one notetaking session (list of facts), and one narration/essay in one content area--history or science or literature but not all three? Is that correct? Thank you so much, Susan, for WWS. The TOC blew me away. I am very excited to use this with my children. Thank you also for answering our questions.

Thank you so much, Susan! I'm excited to start using WWS soon with my 6th-grade son, but I haven't decided about ALL yet. I have a lot of questions that I hope you can answer, as I'm sure they could help others in their long-term planning, as well. I've just emailed Pattie to request the ALL scope and sequence, and I will study that and compare it with Rod and Staff. But I'm hoping you might be willing to give a bit of general comparison of ALL and Rod and Staff. My son used R&S 3-5 successfully, and I had intended to continue with it through high school as you'd recommended in the WTM. Now I'm not so sure. I don't think you'd have written ALL if R&S were all you thought it should be. Can you tell me what we would gain by switching to ALL? I like the idea of being finished with grammar before high school, but is there any other reason to switch? Do both programs cover the same grammatical concepts? Will ALL 1-4 be equivalent to R&S 5-10? If so, I'm wondering how this is possible -- no writing lessons, of course, and less needless repetition in ALL? Is there still adequate review? My oldest may have missed the boat on ALL because of timing, though maybe we could figure something out. What would you say to taking some time out from English grammar to focus on Latin and Spanish, so we can use ALL Levels 1-4 without a break starting in 7th grade, 2012? He wouldn't finish grammar any earlier than with Rod and Staff, but this plan has other benefits, including my not having to buy R&S for him and ALL for my younger boys. Finally, if you could look with me at a long-term plan for my younger children, I'd be very grateful. My second son has just completed FLL 1 and 2. Even before I'd considered ALL, I had been thinking of skipping R&S 3 and starting up again next year with R&S 4 for 4th grade. I think grammar is very important, so I don't want to skimp, but if ALL truly contains all the grammar, can I just teach my children the definitions of the parts of speech as contained in FLL 1 and 2 and then wait for any formal grammar until ALL in 5th? Would that make ALL too challenging? Could I just start formal grammar with R&S 4 in 4th grade, since I already have it, and then go on to ALL in 5th? Thank you again, Susan. We love all of your materials, and I hope we can fit in ALL.

My 5th grader last year did MUS as his main program, which he could easily spend just four days on most weeks. The biggest challenge for me was to require anything the fifth day because I was exhausted (always, as I was pregnant and then had a newborn for all of 5th grade). I stopped scheduling days for math games because I realized we'd never play them. I considered them to be too optional even though I really love the idea. I have the RightStart card games set but rarely play any of them. (takes me too much time to figure out which games to play and how to play them) Same thing with Singapore's CWP and various other math supplements I wanted to use. As for cooking, my son loves to be creative and will rarely follow a recipe. We obviously need to do better at real-life math in 6th grade. :tongue_smilie: The one thing my 5th-grader did do was think about money. He suddenly discovered he could buy things with money, so he spent a lot of time thinking about how he could earn it, how much he needed to buy certain things, how long it would take him to earn a certain amount if he did a job with a certain pay, how to sell his old things to his little brothers, etc. I'd say he has a good grasp on adding and subtracting money, at least. The one thing we did manage to get through in 5th grade was Checkbook Math, as recommended in the WTM. It didn't take up a lot of time. I think he did three pages each week until it was done. I don't remember how many pages are in the book. I'm thinking 25 pages, maybe? It didn't take a lot of weeks to get through the book. I'd forgotten about real-life math for 6th grade, so I haven't planned anything yet. Maybe more involvement at the grocery store and more cooking family meals from a recipe. Both would help me, so it SHOULDN'T be too hard. I hadn't thought of using LoF only once each week. I'd thought more often would be needed to keep the flow. I my look into this option, as well. Thanks for all who gave the idea.

Yippee! Thanks so much! We're away from home for a few months, and I was wishing recently that I could have brought the WTM. This is the next best thing!