When their quality of life suffers and / or they're in pain. We had to put our shepherd-mix down several years ago. He was almost 14 and, while he had the generic aches and pains for years, it wasn't until he was having trouble walking that we decided that it was time. And we took him in on a 'good day' for him, meaning that he was able to walk into the vet's office under his own power. My hubby and I went together and bawled. :crying: But, after it was over, we both commented that it was the first time in many months that his facial expression was free of pain (he was really having a hard time there, at the end) and we knew that we did the right thing. And...we went to the animal shelter and adopted a puppy not too long after that. Our personal feeling was that we would rather adopt another dog that is going to be put to death in a matter of days if it doesn't find a home (our shelter is very crowded here, all the time) than to spend a great deal of money prolonging the inevitable for an older pet who has had a good, long, wonderful life. I hope that makes sense without sounding 'cold-hearted'?

The first major way that this might affect you is in your ability to get loans or credit -- I'm not sure if that affects farmers or not, but I believe it does; for instance, if you need to purchase a new tractor or something. The lines of credit just won't be there or will become very expensive. (Borrowing rates are already escalating, according to CNN today) On a personal note, my dad grew up during the Great Depression (he was born in 1918) and he said that the Depression really didn't affect them that much because they were poor before the Depression, during the Depression, and after the Depression. ;) Whereas my mother, who lived in the city, was hit really hard by it. In that respect, at least you have the ability to grow your own food (which is what my dad's family was able to do) If your children are possibly going to college, student loans will be very hard to come by and also very expensive. Don't know if you have anything invested in the stock market.

:lol:

Very encouraging!!!! My 14yo son is definitely a late bloomer!!! He didn't learn to read at all until he was 8 -- not even so much as his name! And I fretted over it constantly. Now he's doing very well .. and his knowledge of history, politics, and current events puts me to shame!! I'll join you in that :grouphug: for all moms of pre-teen & teenage boys!!! (Oh! And girls, too!)

I loved Phil Hartman!!!! :crying: I miss sooo many from that show!! John Belushi.... Chris Farley... :(

I love it!! :lol:

Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestant - 100% Describes me to a tee! :D

So far, it's up 200+ points ... that was when I check a few minutes ago (it's almost 10am)

Oh No!!!!!!!!!!! I'm SO sorry to hear this!!!! :grouphug:

My kids love rice milk -- especially the vanilla, which is very sweet. It's great on cereal!! We can't use soy milk as I'm allergic to soy, and so are two of my children.

I have no idea! Very interesting. Where's my tinfoil hat and colander??? :willy_nilly:

Nancy Pelosi didn't tell her people to vote no. 2/3rds of democrats voted for the bill. What she did was to basically stick her tongue out at the republicans, just before the final vote. (Totally uncalled for -- she could have done that AFTER the vote) I'll cut and paste some of her speech here -- the link for the rest is: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/washington/30pelositranscript.html ..... Madam speaker, when was the last time anyone ever asked you for $700 billion? It’s a staggering figure. And many questions have arisen from that request. And we have been hearing, I think, a very informed debate on all sides — of — of this issue here today. I’m proud of the debate. $700 billion. A staggering number. But only a part of the cost of the failed Bush economic policies to our country. Policies that were built on budget recklessness. When President Bush took office, he inherited President Clinton’s surpluses — four years in a row, budget surpluses, on a trajectory of $5.6 trillion in surplus. And with his reckless economic policies, within two years, he had turned that around. And now eight years later, the foundation of that fiscal irresponsibility, combined with an anything goes economic policy, has taken us to where we are today. They claim to be free market advocates, when it’s really an anything goes mentality. No regulation, no supervision, no discipline. And if you fail, you will have a golden parachute, and the taxpayer will bail you out. Those days are over. The party is over in that respect. Democrats believe in a free market. We know that it can create jobs, it can create wealth, it can create many good things in our economy. But in this case, in its unbridled form, as encouraged, supported, by the Republicans — some in the Republican Party, not all — it has created not jobs, not capital, it has created chaos. And it is that chaos that the secretary of the Treasury and the chairman of the Fed came to see us just about a week and a half ago — seems like an eternity, doesn’t it, so much has happened, the news was so bad. They described a very, very dismal situation. A dismal situation describing the state of our economy, the fragility of our financial institutions and the instability of our markets, our equity markets, our credit markets, our bond market. And here we were listening to people who knew of what they spoke. Secretary of the Treasury brings long credentials and knowledge of the markets. More fearful, though, to me, more scary, was the statement — were the statements of Chairman Bernanke [ben S. Bernanke, chairman of the Federal Reserve], because Chairman Bernanke is probably one of the foremost authorities in America on the subject of the Great Depression. I don’t know what was so great about the Depression, but that’s the name they give it. And we heard the secretary and the chairman tell us that this was a once in a hundred year phenomenon, this fiscal crisis was so drastic. Certainly once in 50 years, probably once in a hundred years. And how did it sneak up on us? So silently, almost on little cat feet. That they would come in on that day — and they didn’t actually ask for the money, that much money that night. It took two days until we saw the legislation that they were proposing to help calm the markets. And it was on that day that we learned of a $700 billion request.

That's so cool!!!!!!!! We're renting a 4 bedroom condo, on the beach, with a kitchen, for $500 for an entire week. What a deal! Since there are 6 of us, we can't stay in hotels (we violate fire codes) so we're thrilled at the price!! I mean, we go to a hotel near my MIL's house for Thanksgiving and we need two rooms at $150 a night each. :glare: Myrtle Beach is fun fun fun! My kids love to visit the aquarium, and they love to play laser tag and putt-putt golf. My suggestion is to stop at a grocery store / 7-Eleven / what have you and pick up the newspapers and vistor's guides. They'll have fun suggestions and lots of coupons. We usually find good deals on admission rates, etc., off-season. And my kids also love to visit the t-shirt shops and their prices are much more reasonable off-season, too. Have fun!!! :D

The rental company advised us to fill up at home (we're near Fredericksburg, Virginia -- up near DC) and then fill up again just before we reach the NC line. Then we should be okay until we get to Myrtle because it's the areas before we would reach Myrtle that are having problems.

I was shocked when I discovered that, too!! Check out this article from CNN that addresses Palin and this very issue: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/09/29/zakaria.sarah.palin/index.html

That makes sense!!! We aren't having any issues in Virginia, but we're leaving on Monday for our vacation in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, so we called the rental office there and they said they're not having any problems at all in Myrtle with gas shortages. We thought maybe they were just taking care of the tourists, but what you said makes a lot of sense!

Oh!!! Thanks! :D

I'm totally lost!! What are the frozen marbles for??

:lol: You got me!!!!!! :lol:

:grouphug: Thank you for what you're doing!! We need more of you!!

I usually pass it on to someone else! Something like...."Well, when they reach that point there are wonderful classes at the local community college." (And then tell them that my oldest started taking classes there are 15 -- then it becomes "Wow, she must be so smart" and that takes the pressure off of me!) :lol:

Impressive post!!! :iagree:

I want to address some folks who were listed on the page you referenced: Benjamin Franklin was raised as an Episcopalian but was a Deist as an adult. From: Rick Shenkman, "An Interview with Jon Butler ... Was America Founded as a Christian Nation?", posted 20 December 2004 on History News Network website (http://hnn.us/articles/9144.html; viewed 30 November 2005): Mr. Butler, Dean of the Graduate School of Arts & Sciences at Yale University, is the author of Awash in a Sea of Faith: Christianizing the American People (Harvard University Press, 1990). This interview was conducted by HNN editor Rick Shenkman for The Learning Channel series, "Myth America," which aired several years ago... [interviewer:] Let's go through some of [the Founding Fathers]... Benjamin Franklin? [Jon Butler:] Benjamin Franklin was even less religious than Washington and Jefferson. Franklin was an egotist. Franklin was someone who believed far more in himself than he could possibly have believed have believed in the divinity of Christ, which he didn't. He believed in such things as the transmigration of souls. That is that human, that humans came into being in another existence and he may have had occult beliefs. He was a Mason who was deeply interested in Masonic secrets and there are some signs that Franklin believed in the mysteries of Occultism though he never really wrote much about it and never really said much about it. Franklin is another writer whom you can read all you want to read in the many published volumes of Franklin's writings and read very little about religion. ...The principal Founding Fathers--Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Franklin--were in fact deeply suspicious of a European pattern of governmental involvement in religion. They were deeply concerned about an involvement in religion because they saw government as corrupting religion. Ministers who were paid by the state and paid by the government didn't pay any attention to their parishes. They didn't care about their parishioners. They could have, they sold their parishes. They sold their jobs and brought in a hireling to do it and they wandered off to live somewhere else and they didn't need to pay attention to their parishioners because the parishioners weren't paying them. The state was paying them. ............ There's a whole website about the religion of the founding fathers: http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/franklin_steiner/presidents.html Tons of stuff there with references...more than I could read in one evening!

Here's the article I was looking for. I'll cut and paste the first few paragraphs and then link to the full article: How McCain Stirred A Simmering Pot When Sen. John McCain made his way to the Capitol office of House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) just past noon on Thursday, he intended to "just touch gloves" with House Republican leaders, according to one congressional aide, and get ready for the afternoon bailout summit at the White House. Instead, Rep. Paul D. Ryan (Wis.), the ranking Republican on the House Budget Committee, was waiting to give him an earful. The $700 billion Wall Street rescue, as laid out by Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr., was never going to fly with House Republicans, Ryan said. The plan had to be fundamentally reworked, relying instead on a new program of mortgage insurance paid not by the taxpayers but by the banking industry. McCain listened, then, with Sen. Lindsey O. Graham (S.C.), he burst into the Senate Republican policy luncheon. Over a Tex-Mex buffet, Sens. Robert F. Bennett (Utah) and Judd Gregg (N.H.) had been explaining the contours of a deal just reached. House Republicans were not buying it. Then McCain spoke. "I appreciate what you've done here, but I'm not going to sign on to a deal just to sign the deal," McCain told the gathering, according to Graham and confirmed by multiple Senate GOP aides. "Just like Iraq, I'm not afraid to go it alone if I need to." For a moment, as Graham described it, "you could hear a pin drop. It was just unbelievable." Then pandemonium. By the time the meeting broke up, the agreement touted just hours before -- one that Sen. Lamar Alexander (Tenn.), the No. 3 GOP leader, estimated would be supported by more than 40 Senate Republicans -- was in shambles. An incendiary mix of presidential politics, delicate dealmaking and market instability played out Thursday in a tableau of high drama, with $700 billion and the U.S. economy possibly in the balance. McCain's presence was only one of the complicating factors. Sen. Barack Obama played his part, with a hectoring performance behind closed doors at the White House. And a brewing House Republican leadership fight helped scramble allegiances in the GOP. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/26/AR2008092603957.html

From what I understand, the Democrats and Republicans were working together very nicely until McCain flew into town, marched into the meeting, and said "We're not signing anything. If I have to go it alone, I'll do it." And most of the Republicans walked out. (That was according to an article in our local paper...the Washington Post) http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/26/questions_linger_over_mccains.html