I have thought about this a little more and I realize that the co-op examples some of you are referencing are totally different than what I have experienced. The first co-op I had my children in 3 hours per week was for pure enrichment, time with other kids. But at that school, the science labs were taught by engineers and a medical doctor, who left her practice for a couple of hours per week. The next co-op I attended was an offshoot of the first. My kids were a little older, by then, about 5th grade for my oldest. The parents, including myself, gathered together and organized the classes and choose the curriculum. The co-op I'm a part of now has the nurses teaching biology, the engineers teaching the science classes, and the PhD pastor teaching the highschool history classes. This co-op is by far the strictest I have ever been involved with. The standards are rigid and the teaching is intense and the parents work together for the good of the students. In every coop with which I have been involved, the parents that struggle teaching their children are helped and supported by the co-op. Their eyes have been opened as to what children should be capable of. Many of the parents that were participating did not have any idea of the work load that should have been required of children of different ages. For the high school writing class I taught, I know I made in difference to those home schooled kids, preparing them for college. I did my best to shore up their weaknesses. I held timed essays and taught them basic essay writing. Some of them couldn't write a paragraph well, but for those that were graduating, I know I helped to get them more prepared. Eliminating co-ops, eliminates the opportunity for homeschooling parents to help each other. For the 3 co-ops I have experienced, the co-ops raised the bar for the students that for the most part had been set extremely low by the parents. Sure not all co-ops do that, but it can't be an accident that I happened upon three of them that were offering an avenue to help the parents and the kids too. Believe me, after meeting these kids, including one that was a musical genius, teaching himself to play 15 or so instruments by ear, many of these co-ops are helping students and shouldn't all be lumped together. Said musical genius was way behind in other areas. When children have died, I have seen the co-op parents step in and carry the family academically, helping to keep the children going when the parents couldn't. I've talked to moms who don't realize that they're harming their kids by allowing them to play video games and watch TV instead of reading. (I do it too some times, but I know that I'm wrong.) I see my participation as a way to help other families. However, at this current co-op, fewer students actually need that kind of help. The parents at this school are pretty much followers of Charlotte Mason or SWB. They're all on target academically. And yes, I'm harder than the co-op. My children school year round, and do extra work.

I read many of the post, not all, so forgive me if I'm off. But the same criticisms I am reading about home schooled children being uneducated hold true for public schooled children. As long as the public schools are graduating students with such low skill sets, we shouldn't have any problems with the colleges. Furthermore, I don't think co-ops or private tutors are going to mess up homeschooling. As a mom that has her kids in co-op, I am my children's primary teacher, even for core classes. What they learn one day a week can, in no way, give them what they need for the other days of the week. I am actively sitting with my kids, all four of them, six hours a day, except for one day of the week, teaching my children myself--administering tests, answer questions, providing instructing, giving explanations, cheer leading, and offering guidance. Any homeschooling parent with a child in a co-op is still a homeschooling parent. Even legally, it makes no sense that a person with the child 1 hour a week usurps the parents authority and responsibility. I don't see how that is any different that claiming that any high school student that does not have a parent lecturing to him or her for every subject is not a homeschooled student. Instead that child should be classified as a self educator because in reality that parent really isn't involved, and therefore isn't really homeschooling. With that line of reasoning, many of us wouldn't be considered homeschoolers simply because the book is doing the teaching and not the parent. It is impossible for a one hour per week class time non-parent teacher to take on the role and responsibilities of a full-time 5 days a week teacher. Maybe this is why the academic performance in some co-ops is so low. Everyone assumes that one hour with a teacher is sufficient instruction for a weeks worth of material. That isn't the case in my world. When co-ops are done, the parent is the primary teacher.

I've read a few of the post and I'm a little surprised. I do think that letting the governmental school authorities regulate homeschooling at all is a bad thing. But homeschoolers coming together to teach their children collectively is not hurting the community, in fact it is helping. Some parents cannot teach those higher level classes adequately, and coming together with others, sharing the workload, ensures that their children are getting the education that the parents want for them. I've been homeschooling for seven years, formally. I have schooled within a coop setting (3 different ones) and on my own the past year. I enjoy both. Some co-ops are not very academic, but that's where the parents have to step up and add more to what the children are doing, if needed. As far as I'm concerned, it would be foolish for a parent to try and homeschool, ignoring their short comings (whether they be time or knowledge) and short change their children. As long as the government is not involved with online classes, or group learning (co-ops) then I have absolutely no problem with either.

Thanks for posting this Joan. My daughter is in 7th and is taking outside courses this year. I had this nagging thought in the back of my mind about documentation, but I didn't give it much thought. Well, your post has been the answer the for. I am actually excited about getting all of this done for her. Thank you so much for posting this! Kimberly

Everyone has their preferences. I like all kinds, and now that my kids are getting older I'm thinking of growing mine out again and going straight, rather than my little natural fro. My dh actually prefers my hair short. Many people say it makes me look younger. But the conversation reminded me of this song. It doesn't really address the conversation, but I love, love, love this song.

I read that post and thought it was very interesting. In the case of my oldest, I have strictly followed TWTM writing recs when she was little, followed by more Charlotte Mason style writing as she has gotten older, which is still very similar. I never encouraged nor asked for anything creative. She's a very good non-fiction writer. She can whip out a narration in no time flat. This year she's taking a writing class from co-op that ties in with her literature and there are creative writing assignments included. She loves it. I'm startled at the quality of her writing and her ability to do it. I think SWB is dead on about focusing on expository writing first. I can now say I've seen the benefits of it. If my daughter had started creative writing first, then nonfiction writing would have probably been painful. As it has turned out, she has learned the more rigid writing first, and has acquired the resources through it to do well at creative writing. Hope that makes sense. I'm just so happy that she's found a new hobby.

You are wonderful mother.

I read all the posts and my nagging feeling of guilt is gone. It's Wednesday morning, and I'm grabbing my coffee cup. :-)

I already take a large B complex, coQ10, a little iron, and vitamin d3. Would the 5 1/2 hour energy be more of the same?

It sounds crazy, but I don't really like coffee. I have always tried to get my energy naturally and sleep if I felt tired. But I started drinking 1/2 cup on co-op days to make it through the day without being completely exhausted. The difference is absolutely amazing. I still get tired around 3 or so, but I am not tired in the extreme like I was. Now I wonder whether or not I am going to need more than a 1/2 cup as my body adjusts. My mother has always drank 1 cup per day for the past 40 years. My mil drinks about 2 pots per day. Kimberly

Try doing your sit ups with your hands across your chest, each hand toward the opposite shoulder. Another variation is to straighten your arms above your head and clasp your hands together. This allows your head to rest on your arms, forcing you to use your abs to crunch rather than your neck. As for the jumping jacks, do alternating heels to the front, we used to call them heel jacks. As you alternate your feet, you can move your arms the same way she does for the full jacks. Good Luck! I'm not exercising at all because I'm injured again. Better to modify the exercises than do something that is going to hurt you and prevent you from working out for weeks.

Harder subjects first. It's one of my motto's. Practice the hardest piano song first. Do math and Latin first, sometimes before breakfast. It's easier to do the hardest first than saving it for when they're tiring. Kim

I haven't read the thread, but I read your question and in case this hasn't been mentioned--where one lives can a have a huge impact on whether or not one believes in God regardless of intellect. I used to live near NASA where engineers, scientists, and PhD's are a dime a dozen. Those at my church, from what I knew of them were sincere devout Christians. But that's part of the bible belt, so I'm sure that has something to do with it.

Can't answer your question but I think you should follow your instincts and get a curriculum. My dh is completely fluent. He grew up only speaking English at home because his mother only spoke English. They lived in Puerto Rico, then Venezuela, then Mexico before coming to the states at 15. He even took classes like history in Spanish in Venezuela. When he got to college, he took Spanish as an elective. He made either a B or a C. Other students, who weren't fluent, were making A's. He and the teacher were speaking rings around the class. The other students could barely understand what they were saying. He didn't have the textbook knowledge down to the degree he should have for the testing. If you feel you need a curriculum, use one.

So true. This is what my husband looks for. I think I can appreciate words for themselves and the way they sing. But that probably falls more into the area of literary candy.

I'm so sorry, but I'm sure that the people who love you understand without you having to say a word. I'll pray for you. And please don't be so hard on yourself. Marriage is give and take. And seminary can still be an option, if you guys decide that. You guys are young.

I was thinking about it this morning. And I was thinking to me and my dh, it's the value of the message that makes something valuable or not. But I don't know that that applies to writing itself. I wish my dh knew more about the writing itself so that we could discuss that together. Right now my dh is reading the BP website for updates on the technology involved with the new cap. Either that or websites that analyze the national economy. He could do the last one for hours. You know what's really interesting about that economics website is that the guy who writes it knows a lot about literature nd often references Greek tragedies in reference to our economy. It's also really entertaining. He's a very good writer. So, I'll have to think about it some more. So, SWB, if by chance, you see this. We'd love your opinion the subject.

We watch movies rather than TV. Our tastes are eclectic. Today my kids didn't have any schoolwork to do (we school during the summer) and they chose to watch a national geographic show about Moses and the Exodus. Tonight they're watching Jaws. ( My dh's idea, not mine. And if it's a problem, it's his problem, not mine. 'Cause if they can't sleep, they're gonna be all over him, not me.) No TV during school days, unless they're in Spanish. Kimberly I prefer Sponge Bob over Nick. The vocabulary of the Nick shows is about 1st grade. It's all slapstick. But, to be honest, I don't encourage Sponge Bob either and they don't miss it.

Thanks everybody for the comments. I'll be checking out the suggested titles at the library. I have really enjoyed reading the comments to this thread. It's obvious you guys love words. I know that my own style of writing is sort of technical, rather than artistic. It's probably due to my engineering background. I write for the message. But I love to read books that are more art in the deliverance, whether or not the message is thought provoking. Maybe I need to read more poetry. That'll be number 142 on my list of things to do tomorrow. Kimberly

Aubrey: Naw, it's for me. I'm asking because I've spent the past few months writing a novel. Now that it's done, I wonder why I'm writing. But I write because I love to write. I was reading a literary agent's blog about trying to quantify what it is that makes writing good. I don't know what that is. I actually study other people's writings to try and see what makes them tick, but it's really hard to identify, even with the book open. And now that I'm finished, I want to focus more on reading really good books. But I'm not worried about non-fiction stuff, I think that's pretty easy, because it's all about clarity. Not that it's easy to do, but that it's easy to appreciate. It's the artsy stuff that I'm intrigued by. I peruse a lot of children's books and I see a lot of stuff where it seems the writer works too hard at trying to create voice or style or whatever. So I figured maybe I'm not coming across the right books. Mrs. Mungo: I'm looking for fiction stuff. I don't care the genre as long as it grabs you. I even like literary candy, if it's a good story. One book I really enjoyed this year that I had skipped was Maniac McGee by Jerry Spinelli. (sp?) Anyway it was awesome.

I'm looking for a good book with great writing. Any ideas?

What about fiction? Does the same hold true?

I agree about the voice. Which authors are your favorite? I'm trying to come up with a list now of books to read, and voice is one of my considerations.

I've been trying to put my finger on what makes a piece of writing good. Is it complexity for some of you guys? Is it multi-syllable words? Is it message? meaning? flow? Is it the way the words sing to you? Or the way they take you away? Kimberly I started reading about the subject on a blog, and I thought I'd ask the homeschooling parents.

I didn't read the article because I have my own ideas about boys in our society. I spent most of my early adult life thinking how the world was so hard on little girls and young women, especially in the church, and I believe it was true, and in some respects, still is. But fast forward to today, 1 daughter and 3 sons later, and I think the world is out for revenge against little boys. In the city in which I live, the top 3 schools in this area sent out fliers listing their top 5 students. 12 of the 15 were females. At one school, the number 4 and 5 students were boys. None of the boys were black. I find it disheartening that the pendulum has swung so far to the other extreme so that now little boys are the ones being overlooked by main stream society. I wish that both genders could just be accepted as they are and treated with equal worth rather than penalizing one for the benefit of the other. At first, I thought I home schooled for the benefit of my daughter. Now I realize it's just as much a necessity for my sons' futures that I teach them at home.