Thank you for sharing this. My 2nd ds has always had a very loud voice. When he was a toddler, the church we were attending was filled with older ladies who would admonish me to spank him for disrupting church, etc. I always thought that would be like spanking a child for having a lisp, or blue eyes. Anyone who has ever been to my dh's family gatherings would *know* the child just inherited a disposition to be loud - LOL! But, as he has grown, and I have grown into peri-menopause, I have had less patience with him. (It is harder to pretend to pay attention to a 10yo as opposed to a 2yo - LOL!) And, it doesn't help that right now he is like a bull in a china shop - only the china shop is my house, and I simply can't afford to replace *everything* we own. So, I needed to hear this. To remember that he really is a very sensitive young man, despite his bravado. (It does get worse when he is feeling insecure or slighted.) Thank you for letting me glimpse into his world! Blessings! :grouphug:

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: I'm sorry if I hurt you, Janice. That was *so* not my intention! The new WTM is here, and I honestly think there is a step missing in the "How To" section. The last step is for the student to write down a few things/people he'd like to explore further, but I haven't seen where the student does anything with this list. Hmmmmm.....

You too, babe! You too! (You mean you didn't recognize some of that?)

ETA: I was thinking while correcting Math....and this thought came to me (real quick - gotta get back!)....two days ago I listened to a cassette tape by SWB called "Great Books: Literature as History". At the time, she mentioned SOTW-3 was in the works - it's older, obviously! But, what I did take away from listening was a picture of a curriculum that was *literature* focused, rather than *history* focused. If the new WTM Methods help me make that a reality, then I think that would be a good thing. I love that I have been able to learn so much history over the past 3 1/2 years, but really what drew me to WTM was the literature. I wonder if maybe the new recs might be trying to bring back a balance of concentrating on literature and touching on history while doing so? (The new WTM should be here later today - hurry, UPS!) ****** So much understanding here, Janice! I will post back later. Wishing I *could* bifurcate myself right now so that I could sit here (raining here, too!) and post and chat and get some, "Hey! My life is like that too!" encouragement I've been missing lately. But, I must go "be the inspiration" of my phlegmatic (sluggish and unexcited) children. Blessings~

Not sure what "bifurcating" is...hmmm...after the last few years of living with two young men & their young-at-heart father, I'm not sure I want to know - LOLOLOL!!!! Seriously, I think I felt quite the same things you're feeling now after I listened to SWB last year (In Atlanta). To borrow a phrase from a book, "Someone moved my cheese!" She was talking about minimums! About traditional history sequences. About counting hours, and when you get to - what was it? 140? 160? - you stop - you're done! So very different than the reputation of the board. I felt....betrayed, almost? Betrayed because I've been trying so hard for so long to turn my two very phlegmatic sons into self-learners. And, I haven't succeeded. At least, not in achieving a reality that is the goal in my mind. I feel we are really at the bottom of the WTM Barrel in terms of output. But, OTOH, we are working as hard as we can without doing major damage (either to the kids, or to me!). Recently I pulled out the CD I bought of the Atlanta high school talk and listened again. This time, I admit, I was actually encouraged by it. Suddenly high school seems do-able. It seems like an adventure that is custom-tailored to *my* child. Very "Moore Foundation"-ish, actually. Strange that *that* is where I started on this journey! I think the hardest part of homeschooling for me is that I can't compare my kids to a standard. The standards are all either "too hard", or they're "not enough". There is no agreement in what a 9th grade should be doing in terms of "output", or even "input" for that matter. At times, it seems like the only "standard" is "push, push, push and push harder". I think you were/are a pianist, right? The only analogy I can think of is when I kneww that a work needed to be faster, so I worked and I worked and I worked to make it faster - always thinking, "It's not fast enough. It's just not fast enough." And, then, one day I'm told it's *too* fast. Lighten up. Don't be so confined to a steady beat. Let it breathe. And I wanted to scream, "AAAARRRRRRGH!" My whole sense of the speed was wrapped up in the adrenaline rush of "trying to play it faster", and I had to learn to give up that adrenaline rush in order to move past the "play it faster" phase and into the "let the music play itself" phase. Keeping with my music thoughts, have you ever had the experience of hearing yourself play without knowing it was you doing the playing? Weren't you just amazed?! It is a strange experience to know that when I've heard myself play, I was awed by the performance that I thought was *so* *terrible* while I was playing it. I think, or maybe I just hope, that life is a little like that? One day, we'll see our lives and think, "Wow!" Of course, I can't say that about everything. I *am* embarrassed to say that when the boys were little, I didn't let them read fairy tales - too much magic. I made them drink that nasty green vegetable juice - Yea for me that I can no longer remember what it's called! I wouldn't let them watch Dragon Tales - you know, they might try to indoctrinate my young ones into siding with the Dragon of Revelation and receiving the mark of the beast - who knew what grave, dark powers might lurk in those Dragon badges? So, I am in liimbo, myself. On one hand, I have the ideal I have carried around in my head since I first saw those literature lists in WTM. (The self-motivated student, searching on his own for deeper answers to the things that naturally interest him - Ha! where *is* that student? I mean, besides *me*.) OTOH, I *know* that at times I have been a bit *too* idealistic for my own good. I don't have the new WTM, yet, so I don't feel qualified to speak to that. It should be here, soon. I do wonder what those who did venture forth into Great Books ala WTM will think when *they* read the new edition. Blessings to you, Janice!

I don't have the book here, but IEW is mentioned in the sample Rhetoric chapter (link on the home page - http://www.welltrainedmind.com). I've been considering switching *to* IEW after reading that. I'm waiting for the whole book to get here before deciding for sure.

I don't call it "self-educating", but in preparing to teach Jacob's Algebra, what I did was complete the Chapter Reviews. If I couldn't remember how to do a problem, or did it incorrectly, I could look back at the Chapter summary to see which exact lesson to go to for help. Of course, I'm hoping I can throw in the towel for Geometry, and buy ChalkDust instead - LOL!

I didn't feel that way at all - but, with three kids spaced so far apart, you would probably classify my whole day as "choppy" - LOL! When we were using SL, I used 2 different cores, and I appreciated being able to complete a task and mark it done before getting interrupted. Guess it all depends on your perspective. =)

The tape I have by SWB labeled "Great Books: Literature as History" is quite old (SOTW 3 was in the works), but she most definitely states that if you have an older child that has not been introduced to the Great Books and Classical Ed through a program like the Logic Stage suggestions in WTM, that you should probably follow those suggestions for your high school program. And, she pointed out that the books on the 6-8th lists are usually read in high school. And, see this quote: A student who is just beginning classical education may not be ready to tackle a full Great Books list. If your older student is overwhelmed by the idea of reading Aristotle or John Locke, we have two suggestions: 1) Save the study of the Ancients for the final high school year. Although this is not ideal, it allows a student who is still "catching up" to become more comfortable with reading classic works before encountering some of the more unfamiliar literature. And when you do tackle Homer, Plato, and Aristotle, look for some of the excellent "books on tape" versions of these works (Sir Derek Jacobi recently performed the Odyssey on an audiobook published by HighBridge Co., available from most bookstores.) Use these audiobooks as introductions to the print versions; have your student listen to them first, and then read the texts. 2) For the study of literature from 400-present, use the lists we suggest for grades 6-8 (pp.342-352 of The Well-Trained Mind). These lists contain classic literature as well as a few abridgements; among other texts, sixth graders read the beginning of the Inferno and a Shakespeare play; seventh graders read Gulliver's Travels and "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner"; eighth graders read Stevenson, Wells, and Shaw. Use the abridgements on these lists (retellings of Beowulf, Chaucer, de Cervantes, and so on) as springboards into the study of the original works themselves. After your student is familiar with the storyline of Beowulf or The Faerie Queen, he will be less intimidated by the classic stories themselves. And challenge your high school student to try a few works off the high school list as the year progresses You can find the whole article here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/starting.php Best wishes~

I'm curious. I doubt that the DVD's of either are spectacularly interesting. Last summer, SWB said her dc call the Intro DVD's "The Guy in the Tie" videos - and that they were boring. I tend to agree. My ds ended up not even using the DVD's because all the info on the DVD was in the book. So, I'm wondering where you heard that the Traditional were boring. I'm not saying that they *aren't* - I'm just sayin' I've heard the same thing about the Intro DVD's. (And, I'm wondering myself if I will even bother with the Traditional Logic DVD's next year.) BTW, she also said last summer that she was/is now recommending the Traditional Logic starting in 7th grade, if that matters.

I think that sounds like so much fun! We don't do many activities here at home, I think in part because the social dynamic of a group to share with is missing. (I used to teach, and miss the school atmostphere - wierd, I know.) I'm sitting here wishing we could move to Virginia, and make enough money to send our kids to your school...

OK - that's what I was wondering. I think we had to write in cursive in AP English. Either that, or we just had to do so much writing that I decided I needed to switch to cursive on my own - IDK - LOL! Anyway, I was thinking specifically about the essay on the SAT. (Since I didn't have to do that, myself.) Thanks, all!

I haven't used Art of Argument, just examined the TOC and sample online. But, I think it basically covers the same material as Fallacy Detective (Informal logic/fallacies). I would give considerable thought to choosing Traditional Logic over the Introductory - not because *I* said so, but because the general consensus on the high school board has said so for years. I chose not to listen this year, because Introductory *looks* easier. It basically has more white space - but it is very sparse in its explanations, and there is not much practice or review. We didn't finish the book. There have been several threads on the high school board in recent weeks if you are interested in reading others' thoughts. Blessings~

I don't know why I was thinking about this today, but thought maybe I better ask - LOL! Thanks, Rhonda

Unless there are issues I don't know about, a 10yo should be able to do Rod & Staff on grade level. (Or, maybe the 2 was a typo?) I think you could definitely learn it alongside her, but if you're going to use R&S for writing as well as grammar, I would try to do it on grade level. Even tho' I use Rod & Staff, I wouldn't hesitate to use the JAG with Wordsmith Apprentice (or IEW) with a 10yo. I bet that would be more "fun". Blessings to you~

Oh, I'm so glad you responded! I admit I just glanced at the article when it came in the mail the other week, and thought, "Eh, whatever." But, I really appreciate your thoughts here. Well said!

I haven't tried it. I haven't read LCC. I don't suppose either way is "better". But, I like doing history via WTM. We started when my boys were in 2nd and 5th, and are almost finished with SOTW-4 now. So, now I'm looking at Ancients for next year - they'll be in 6th and 9th (yikes!). One thing I like is that in just a few short years my kids have been exposed to the entire span of history. As a result, they have some perspective I didn't have even as a young adult. They can read the newspaper and they have an idea of what all has happened in that area of the world that might be relevant to what is going on today. I like that. Next year, as we start repeating Ancients, it really is going to be like re-visiting old friends. My kids have started thumbing through things and saying, "Oh, yeah! I remember this." And, my 5th grader was blowing people away with his knowledge of mummification at the Tut exhibit. (And we didn't even make the mummified chicken - LOL!) He studied that in the 2nd grade, and he remembers it better than I do! I thought it might be boring to them to start over, but I think that they are feeling confident. They know something about it already, but there is still much to learn, and they know that they have the education tools to go deeper this time around. (That probably doesn't make much sense - sorry!)

For the record (as if it matters), this sums up what I took away from Asta's original post as well. I choose my homeschool materials (used or new) based on what I hope will work best for us. The re-sale value never enters my mind as a deciding factor. But, then, I would never consider the re-sale value of a car either. (Mine is now 9 years old - bought used @1yo - and only has 50K miles.) I really don't think she meant any ill toward anyone. (Moving back to the Curriculum Board, now....) btw ~ Good to see you, Ria! Glad you're back on the board!

Oh.......you've never witnessed a Math War on the High School Board, have you? - LOL!

And, I agreed with your comments re: TOG. But, you did say: "As far as reselling - if you no longer have a need for it, why should you keep it??" Implying there are only two options: re-sell, or keep them. Then, asta is attacked for pointing out that she *donates* them (the emphasis being given because it's a third, yet unmentioned, option), as if that's a horrible thing. But, she's probably like me - a very expressive person. Sometimes that doesn't translate well in print. But, whatever.

I'm afraid that's gonna be me with homeschool curriculum that I've bought and haven't used! I'm afraid to get rid of it, because, just as sure as I do, some educational crisis will arise, and I may need it.

That explains why *I'd* never use it. I think my inability to successfully combine my boys must be legendary by now - LOL! (I'm sure DITHOR is great, and works well for many people. Please no flames!) Though not necessarily "combining", what I did when the boys were split into grammar and logic stage (and have done with some things this year) was have the younger read an abridged version of what the older was reading. This is pretty easy to do if you combine the grammar and logic stage lists. Then, I'd let the one who finished first fill in the gap of time with more "free" reading. Sometimes we discuss together - sometimes separately - sometimes both. But, at least then I only have *one* book to discuss. I will miss that next year as my oldest moves into Great Books.

I think this is the healthiest way to deal with it! That way, it's over and done, you get what you need, and you don't go home and fume about it.

Not if my kids were as young as yours! =)