If you have both, I would recommend the white one. You can read about a couple of topics in both and see what you think. I remember reading about Roman Society (the explanation of patricians was much better in the white), and Alexander the Great (I thought the red one tended to portray every action of every person as "good" after comparing the two).

My first post wasn't quite so "demanding", but I'm into my ds's computer time right now, so I'll have to be brief - LOL! So, you are using something (KF or text) to help you search, but you aren't requiring any reading or written work out of that book, right? Do your kids help you search at the library, or is that part of your planning, with them just choosing from the smorgasboard you bring home? And, what written work (or projects, or whatever) do you assign from your history reading? I'm thinking it might be hard to say, "One paper a week" because doing it this way might mean doing history for a few days, and then reading literature for two weeks, right? (esp. when we hit the Iliad and Odyssey) I'm also thinking maybe even without KF, I could just take our lit list, and rather than using something like Spielvogel as in the 2nd ed WTM, just use the resources at the library to help create the context page. (And, then use WEM and some other guides for the literature.) Does that sound good to you? I'm so glad you posted! Thanks for all your help!!!

Yeah - I have one of those, too. (And, he absolutely hates it when I ask him what he would like to do.) I have been hoping to somehow work some Herodotus and some Thucydides in as history- mostly because I anticipated they would be BOR-ing. But, they're not at all! I'd also love to read all the history sections in the Old Testament. (And, some of the non-fiction selections on specific topics from the library.) But, I'm not convinced I could really pull that all together into an actual "history" course, if that makes sense. (I seem to be making less and less sense lately!) Thanks for sharing your experience! I know my son was really excited when I told him he might be using a college text (Spielvogel's Western Civ). So, maybe that would be a challenge that would help him rise above his "just get it done" attitude, even if I regret that means we will probably wind up studying just that one book rather than getting viewpoints from many different sources.

That helps a bunch! Thanks!

Well, not to mention that the "grammar" you are doing is in *Latin*! (Of course, they probably think that's a waste of time as well.) Kind of off-topic: But, I just noticed that on the Home Scholar (?) website, LRTEG is highly recommended. Do you by any chance know how difficult it would be to transition to LRTEG *after* Henle I? (I can't email the LRTEG author from the website - my computer isn't able to open whatever-it-is that is supposed to come up.) And, by the way, how is it going? Do you & your student like it? Is it really self-teaching? The Henle *can* be, but it's not fun. Thanks! And, I'm sorry you had to sit through such rudeness!

In this post, you proposed doing WTM History and Lit completely from the library to save money. I actually have much more here than I *need* to adequately cover history for next year, but my heart really yearns to get my children into the library and *using* all that wonderful stuff that is just sitting there waiting to be explored! I admit I didn't do that so well the last four years, because we were new to homeschooling, I had a baby, and SOTW w/KF was just too convenient! But this next year (re-visiting Ancients and starting 9th grade) I have a chance to have a do-over, and make that yearning a reality. And, I have such a plan all typed up for my 6th grader. But if I use what I have here for my 9th-grader's history, they all seem so complete (and time-consuming) in themselves, it just doesn't seem possible to add extra library searches to them without history just taking over our day. Yet, if I don't have a spine, I'm just not sure how to guide or structure our year. :confused: What I would *really* love is a "WEM" for history. (Well...I take that back. I guess I could add to Spielvogel's HO without it being too much.) Even so, I'm not too good at being original! So, I'm really, *really* curious if you've done this, and if you could share a bit more.

Sounds good! We'll keep our history plans in place (ha! as if I actually have those in place - LOLOLOL!!!), and we'll use the Leithart as "pre-discussion" fodder, keeping WEM as our main lit discussion guide. My parents have been here all day, and I just got these in from Amazon yesterday, so I haven't had much time with them! Thank you, ladies, for sharing!!

Wow! I wish I had seen this earlier.... If you've used this, could you share how, and what else you might have used with it? I'm certain our history is going to be a mish-mash of things already, and I saw a few questions that involved doing some history-based research - did you/could you rely on just that for your history study? Did you have time for other lit that wasn't in "Heroes"? And, did you by any chance use Leithart's "A House for My Name" - an overview of the Old Testament - either before or along-side "Heroes"? I would *really* like to use this, too. I just really have *NO* idea how much we can reasonably cover in two hours a day. Thanks!

So, if we used EG 1-3, we should be able to read the New Testament? My DS (14yo) is *really* wanting to do that. Any ideas of what he/we could use as a 2nd year for high school level? Thanks!

Well, when my Grandmother ran over my bike (my driveway), she didn't pay for it - LOL! And I was only 8....

When I did SOTW-3 mine were 4th and 7th. We used SOTW as our spine, but we started the week having 4th grader read the Usborne IL World History (now a 5th grade recommendation) and the 7th grader outlined from KIHW (because I had it here - you could easily use the KHE and just list facts per the new recs). I always did SOTW in order, and used the Activity Guide for the encyclopedia page numbers (and maps!). Then, we used SOTW for the "extra" reading and reports - reading one story a day. (You can also outline sections of SOTW - sometimes we did that as well.) And if we had time, we read additional books from the library. Some weeks, I doubled up the SOTW so that we could cover it all without going through the summer, and those weeks we just read the encyclopedias without doing any written work, other than narrations or outlines of SOTW. I liked doing it this way because the encyclopedias do not contain nearly the detail that SOTW does (and SOTW is more enjoyable), and it was easier to do the outlining and such first, and save the best for last. Have a great year! ps - my 4th grader might have had a written assignment to go along with the Usborne, I just don't remember, though I'm sure I've even posted it before LOL!

Colleen, THANK YOU for posting this. I know we had talked about how WWE makes the outlining and narration much simpler, and yet more varied at the same time. But, I *really* didn't want to have to buy a book I really don't *need*. This is wonderful, because I knew it had to be simple, but just couldn't break free from the individual chapter recs in WTM! I can't wait to change things for my 6th grader this year with this stream-lined approach. I think if he know this is ALL he has to do, he'll be more inclined to do his best. But, I bet my 9th grader thinks I've turned into a softy - LOL! Thanks, Colleen!

A few answers: We are using the Usborne as our "spine" for history. This is the book that we'll read through, basically from beginning to end, and then use as a spring-board for our "research". It's the book that you figure out how many pages you want to cover each year, and divide by the number of weeks you want to do for school (SWB suggests 36 weeks, but I always use 30 or 32, knowing that some weeks history won't get done). That tells you about how many pages to cover a week. (tho, truthfully, I didn't worry about this so much. I just grouped the pages by what looked like they went together.) *IF* I switch back to using the OOP Kingfisher, then I wil have him outline from that. However, the Usborne does not consistently have paragraphs which lend themselves to 3-level outlining. And, even though we will start the year with 1- and 2-level outlines, it is important for him to see how more meaty and "mature" essays are written. So, we will not use the Usborne for outlining. We will look for passages within the non-fiction books that are 4-6 paragraphs long. Or, if that's too difficult to find, we'll outline an encyclopedia article or part of SOTW. I'm not certain what SWB does, but I'm not planning on having my ds read the non-fiction "extra" reading straight through, necessarily. But, I will have him skimming the TOC and Indexes for the information that interests him - and maybe reading about the same topic in more than one book. (Just want to be sure no one thinks he'll be outlining whole books - LOL!) The primary sources are snippets of things (literature, laws, speeches, letters) that were written in the time period being studied. All the ones I have listed on this excerpt I found in a high-school level history book by Spielvogel called "Human Odyssey". You can usually find this used on Amazon for less than $10, if you're interested. You could also use (and I probably will) the Mammoth Book of How It Happened (?) recommended in WTM, or the free internet site listed in WTM as well - look in the book list at the end of the logic stage history chapter. There are questions listed in the WTM logic history chapter that you can use when you're reading and evaluating any primary source. You could have your child just answer these questions instead of outlining or narrating on a primary source. (The answers will basically *be* a critique.) Discussions....If you pre-read your spine, you will be fine. I pre-read the spine as I plan. Then during the school year, at least with my older ds, I would read through his outline or narration, and use that as a springboard for discussion. No real rhyme or reason as to what questions I asked. Just the basic reporter's questions. And, sometimes at dinner, DH would ask what they had learned at school that day. Always, the most interesting things were history and science, and so they were talked about then as well. I think the discussions are more a fruitful give-and-take if you use a spine and extra reading that are well within your child's ability to comprehend. If you choose a spine that will really stretch your DC (and sometimes that's a good thing), you will probably be spending much more one-on-one time than with an easier spine, and so the "discussions" may be more you explaining what the spine says in a way that your dc can understand - but in doing so, you will be transmitting a part of yourself as well, and that's good discussion, too! (For example, if I wasn't worried about being sure that my 4yoDD doesn't get pushed out of my schedule this next year, I would have opted for the OOP Kingfisher. I think doing the KIHW would really help my ds's thinking level rise drastically, but I know that doing that would require much more mom-time.) Ah - I see you mentioned lit discussions, not history (blush!). I highly, highly recommend that you read the novel section of WEM, though the same questions are in WTM. Just start by having dc answer 2-3 questions orally (WEM will guide you to which are the most basic), and add questions 1 or 2 with each book, requiring oral answers. Try to have dc quote the book in his/her answer. Until your dc is comfortable with answering the questions orally, just continue doing written narrations of lit books (just a page). Once the discussions are flowing well, then have him try to answer one of the evaluation questions instead of narrating. (All this is on the Great Books CD, which is only $5 at Peace Hill Press - another highly recommended resource!) To me, reports depend so much on what your child has learned from his writing program. If you've only covered how to write a paragraph, then just require paragraphs. Only, do require that he apply what he has learned in writing to his reports. Check WTM for the actual amount of written work. For example, for 6th grade, it says not to expect more than one report if your dc is writing one-page reports. So, I will require one page. That could be all on one thing, or divided up among 2-4 things. Sometimes (like once we reach Greece), I know I will slow down to get in all the biography reports I want. I have planned out through Greece in the Usborne Ancient World book. I think that will get us through January - maybe into February. I really don't know. It's a little more than half-way through the book. I'll probably end up squishing the stuff between Greece and Rome. Best wishes to you all!

I listened to SWB's Great Books as History CD about a month ago, and she said to divide up your spine to a number of pages per week, then check out one non-fiction book and one fiction book to read and narrate from each week. (I think this recording was made *before* the rec about "taking notes" from the spine and outlining from another source. Just guessing.) So...I started by typing out the routine in the new WTM: ***** History Pattern: 1.Read a section (or two) from the core text and list six to eight important facts in complete sentences. 2.Mark all dates on the time line 3.Find the region under study on the globe, on the wall map, and in the atlas 4.Do additional non-fiction reading from the library, encyclopedia, Story of the World, or primary sources 5.Outline 5-6 paragraphs (working up to 10-12 paragraphs) from an additional history source each week. 6.Prepare compositions for notebook (totaling one page of written work each week) choosing from the following topics: Notebook Sections: 1.Outlines 2.Great Men and Women 3.Wars, Conflicts, and Politics 4.Inventions and Technology 5.Religion 6.Daily Life 7.Cities and Settlements 8.Primary Sources 9.The Arts and Great Books ***** Then, I made a "checklist" which is not tied down to "days of the week", but will help us work through this routine - and allow us the freedom to "camp out" if ds does happen to get really into something. (Well....a mom can hope, right?) Because there are no dates or weeks attached, all I have to do to go on "just read the spine" mode, is x out the written work listed underneath each spine entry until we get "caught up". (The programming probably won't show up here. It is very obvious which entries are the spine entries on my ds's list.) I decided against my old stand-by OOP Kingfisher for outlining, and I'm a little worried about that! We're using the Usborne Internet-Linked Ancient World instead. But, I am excited that this will get us to the library (I plan to go every Tuesday) and it will teach *him* how to find his own resources. (And, he'll always have SOTW-1 here, as well. He did say he really wants to go through it again, since he'll understand it so much better this time through.) I worked in the WTM literature recommendations as best I could, following the advice on the Great Books CD. And, I tried to have some weeks where *he* will have to find a literature book. (I fully expect that at some point our lit and history won't be so neatly matched, but I would like to have covered the related history *before* reading a book. I think my older DS would have better enjoyed some of his logic stage lit if I had been more particular about that.) The beginning of my list is bit more mom-directed so I won't post that here, and I only did half the year since this is a *very* new and untried system for us, but here is an excerpt: ***** USB pp. 6 – 9 – Mesopotamia and Sumer Time Line Wall map, globe, and atlas Non-fiction: (search: Mesopotamia) Outline Reports Primary Sources: “Sumerian Schools for Scribes” “The Story of the Great Flood” Literature: Read a version of Epic of Gilgamesh from the library Literature: Myths and Legends, “Pyamus and Thisbe”, pp. 13-18 USB pp. 10 – 13 – The Egyptians Time Line Wall map, globe, and atlas Non-fiction: (Religion: pyramids, mummies) Outline: Reports: The Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt pp. 3-74 Biography: Cheops Primary Sources: “An Egyptian Father's Advice to His Son” Literature: Tales of Ancient Egypt USB pp. 14 - 15 – Indus Valley Time Line Wall map, globe, and atlas Non-fiction: (Indus Valley) Outline Reports Literature: (“India, folklore”; or myths/folktales here) Note: We will be doing Indian myths/folktales again, so don't think we need to do them all this week! USB pp. 16 – 19 – Megalithic Europe Time Line Wall map, globe, and atlas Non-fiction: (Stonehenge) Outline Reports ***** The topics in parentheses after "Non-fiction:" are the search terms which brought up good choices in our library on-line search engine. I'll never forget my older DS's disappointment after searching for over an hour to find information on Stilicho and finding *nothing*. So, I am helping guide this DS's searches until he says, "OK, Mom, I can *do* this!" Probably TMI, but hope that helps!

Likewise... I just was nice enough to ignore the fact that you felt compelled to trash my opinion, which I offered to someone else.

Sorry for the confusion - two different boys. I pulled them out of public school when they were in 2nd and 5th. This year they will be in 6th and 9th (my, the time has flown!!!!). So, my oldest went from public school to ABeka 5 (really just the grammar part), and then into R&S 6-8. His younger brother didn't really have "grammar" in 2nd Abeka, and has completed R&S 3-5. The whole thing gets really confusing even to me! It's a big pain to post it every time - maybe we should have a "biography" forum for people to share their stories - LOL! I was thinking a bit more about this, and I think what I would have liked to have been told is that *if* I wanted to follow WTM Methods, and write cross-curricularly using the writing lessons that are in R&S, to stay within a grade level of the child's actual grade. One example I thought of: You won't get to complex/compound sentences until 6th grade in R&S, and yet your 7th grader will likely be *thinking* in complex/compound sentences and will need to know how to punctuate them, and how best to phrase them so that they aren't as confusing as this ridiculously long sentence is turning out to be. R&S is very good at teaching how to write sentences logically, which really helps "up" the level of dc's writing. Best wishes! ETA: In answer to your question, Yes, it is my *personal* belief that 90-95% of R&S-5 merely reviews R&S-4.

My original post wasn't directed at Jojomojo. Since my original post was to encourage the OP (whom I posted under, btw) that if in her gut she thinks R&S-4 and 5 cover basically the same thing, that at least one veteran user of R&S agrees with her assessment. In fact, one could say Jojomojo was being defensive of *her* position by "attacking" my opinion. The great thing about homeschooling is that we can agree to disagree! Hence, all the YMMV, IMO, etc. in my post.

Well, my older DS did ABeka 5 (in half a year after I pulled him out of public school @ Thanksgiving). I guarantee you he had *NO* experience with grammar (part of why I pulled him out). We did have to stop at times and play games, watch SchoolHouse Rock, etc., but really.... WTM recommends starting with the 6th grade book. (The number 5 is a typo - check the titles of the books and the errata page of this main website.) So, actually, the recommendation is to start a 6th grader without prior grammar experience in R&S-6. I don't think starting in 5 is horrible, as 8 is mostly a review grammar-wise, and introduces persuasive essays - which is definitely a high school WTM requirement. But, I really think any average 6th grader could handle R&S-5. (Trust me, my kids seem *below* average compared to many here - LOL!) And, honestly, I can't tell someone to use R&S so far below grade level, and then supplement with a separate writing program. Why not just get a pure grammar program - like Analytical Grammar, or even ABeka, tho' surely there are others - with a completely separate writing program? That just seems simpler to implement to my mind - YMMV. Don't get me wrong, I've used R&S-3 through 8, and don't intend to change. Guess it's really a choice of - are you willing to slow down and fill in gaps with games and other activities when necessary, or are you more comfortable flying through things? I'm the kind who would rather be relaxed and flexible with our schedule, rather than always trying to speed things up to get back "on grade level" - I'd be afraid I'd fly through the very things I went backwards to get. YMMV, IMO, all that jazz~ (I can tell I'm gonna regret this one....)

Well, just to confuse you....(hee, hee!).... my 2nd DS just finished R&S-5 after having used 3 and 4, and I frankly thought it was a wasted year grammar and writing-wise. I know there had to be *some* new things, but it seemed like it was mostly review - my ds is not an independent learner, but he did most of it on his own. I really think the big jump is from R&S-5 to R&S-6, with an even bigger jump up to 7, and I would definitely put a 6th grader into R&S-5, not 4. fwiw~

Well.... If your 5th grader is a really good reader, then maybe my suggestions will be off! But, I'll tell you what worked and didn't for my sons - they were 4th and 7th at the time. My kids are pretty average, so maybe what worked for my 7th grader will be helpful to you. We did all the fairy tales as a part of morning Read Aloud time. We also did all the poetry as Read Alouds, and interspersed the poetry amongst the novels - which meant we did the fairy tales and poetry out of order, but it was a good way to break up the year. Booklist: Don Quixote abridged - 7th gr used Usborne version/4th gr used rec in 7th grade list Perrault’s Complete Fairy Tales - Read Aloud - Gulliver’s Travels “A Vilage to Lilliput†and “ A Vouage to Brobdingnag†- 7th gr used this version when the real one got to be too much. I found it at our library The Pilgrim’s Progress 4th gr used Dangerous Journey/7th gr used rec version Robinson Crusoe both used this version. There is a Teacher's Guide as well. William Wordsworth: - we did this together. not our fave, but I used WEM to help me We are Seven Lines Written in Early Spring Composed a Few Miles above Tintern Abbey Lucy Gray Composed upon Westminster Bridge September 3, 1802 I Wandered Lonely on a Cloud - the best of the group. We used this for memory work The Rime of the Ancient Mariner skipped. too much here to explore - it'll wait til high school The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle 4th gr read abridged, but you'll probably be ok. even the abridged version was *very* close to the original. The Pied Peper of Hamelin found a picture book at the libary & read aloud. Grimm’s Fairy Tales part of our Read Aloud time Benjamin Franklin: The Way to Wealth 7th grader enjoyed. 4th grader did not do. Not hard reading, but very preachy. Christina Rosetti: Goblin Market; A Birthday; Sister Maude; No, Thank You, John OK. Probably better for girls than boys. (Sorry! - mo) Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland 7th gr was fine with this/4th grade read abridged - but, again, the abridged was very close to the original. I don't think either of them "got" all that was there, but that's ok. Pride and Prejudice skipped The Adventures of Tom Sawyer loved it. 4th gr read abridged & has since read the original. A strong reader will probably be fine. 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea 7th gr got really bogged down (lots of scenery details!) We settled on abridged versions of this and Journey to the Center of the Earth - and watched a couple of movie versions, too. A Christmas Carol - This is a beautiful picture book version both boys liked. 7th gr also read the original. The Lady of shallot and The Charge of the Light Brigade - you'll be fine The Raven - you should be ok, but my 4th grader didn't like it - of course, he didn't like all the death and supernatural stuff in any of the poems! East O the Sun and West O the Moon - part of our morning read alouds. The language structure in this is a little tricky at first (and lots of unfamiliar words, but they're used over and over, so they become familiar quickly) Narrative of Life in Frederick Douglass an American Slave - skipped. We read Amos Fortune as one of our history read-alouds, and we just ran out of time for this one! Hope you have a great year!

Have to go to football 3 minutes ago --- but, I did the fairy tales as read-alouds with a 7th and 4th grader (15 minutes or so daily throughout the year). I'll try to track down specific recs later - I remember Usborne had a great version of Don Quixote.

R&S-7 reviews R&S-6 so quickly, I think it is assumed that everything in 6 is mastered. I don't think *I* could have grasped 7 without having studied 6. And, 7 quickly moves into more advanced grammar (very difficult!). fwiw, R&S-8 concentrates on writing and introduces persuasive essays, but the grammar is almost all review of R&S-7.

Here is another post. I think I have some more details in that one. ETA: I can't edit my old posts! So, don't look at the routine we followed there - I tweaked it to the routine above, which we still use. But, the old post will give you some idea of the activities that are available in the Teacher's Guide. Make sense? hth!

Best wishes, Colleen! ETA: LOLOLOLOL - Feel free to ignore me! I just went to start dinner, opened the refrigerator, and found the ice cream - placed there two hours ago by my 11yo DS. Someone please tell me this a boy-thing, and my dd will by-pass this stage!!! - LOLOLOLOL

My ds was not learning anything using the flashcard technique. I have adapted the Teacher's Guide, and pretty much have a routine: Monday - I use the Familiar Words and the questions in the teacher's guide to introduce the roots. I tend to make up questions for roots that aren't covered in the Teacher's Guide here. (Or, thankfully, most of them have been familiar from Latin.) DS records the roots (the shortened version of the root), the meaning, and a word that well illustrates both the root and its meaning on a sheet as described in WTM. As we cover the roots, we read through the words and definitions together. I try to give him some idea of the connotations of the more obscure words. We don't read every jot and tittle of the student book, we just try to touch on each word. Sometimes I'll have him think of his own sentence using the word - but we don't write it down, all this is orally done together. Tuesday - We do the Guided Practice in the Teacher's Guide. This is *very* helpful, and is where he really gets familiar with the words. (Some of these do require a little bit of preparation, but not most.) Wednesday - He completes the Worksheet in the back of the Teacher's Guide. Thursday - He does the exercises in the Student Text. Friday - On odd weeks, nothing. Sometimes, on the even weeks we do some of the Review exercises - there are some in the Teacher's Guide and others in the Student Text. Some weeks we look at the test together. (The tests cover two lessons.) But, honestly, sometimes we do nothing on the even weeks, too! This takes maybe 5 to 10 minutes a day. It does involve me, but my ds spends *much* less time on vocabulary each week than he was spending making the flashcards alone. And, he is remembering the words, seeing them in books he's reading and in the newspaper, and using them whenever he can insert a very formal word into a rather ridiculous situation, trying to make it even more ridiculous. (I guess we're weird that way - LOL!) YMMV, IMO, and all that jazz~