Another x-post. Wow! You are so dedicated. Your desire to help your daughter to succeed in real research is awesome. It is not an easy ask if you have never done it yourself. I am also really pleased to see someone else besides me writing about science fairs! (I write on the logic board). I am currently writing up what my ds(11) has done on his project each week, and what kind of problems we are running into. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361740 And last year I wrote about 20 posts about science fair projects and the scientific method in general on this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263107 I don't know if you have seen them. As for what is required in a science fair project - it must be original research in either science or technology. It can be experimental or observational. I'm not so sure about the Panda project, without seeing it, it does sound like a research project to me also. You really need to read up on the rules/hints of your regional fair. Here is the link to our rules/hints page http://www.sciencefair.org.nz/~science/?q=node/4 I completely agree with you that science fair projects do not have to cost much at all. Our most expensive one has probably cost $20 (for the glue used in evaluating the best formula for silly putty). Our current projects so far have cost us nothing. My ds(11) is studying how wind, tide, and direction of the bay affect the long shore transport of sand. My younger son (8) is studying how the depth of topsoil varies depending on the slope and vegetation of the land. All we need are a shovel, ruler, compass, etc. I am happy to help you design a good project, but I would recommend you move this thread to the logic board, because that board moves more slowly and the thread won't be lost in the shuffle. I did scientific research for 6 years in my previous life, so have a bit of experience. This year is also my 8th and 9th science fair projects! Post #2 after a bit more info from Dawn: Dawn, I am happy to guide you, but please be aware that the things that I will explain to you here should not be shared directly with your daughter. Children of this age need to be encouraged, and their budding scientific thinking guided carefully and gently. What I would tell her is very different than what I would tell you, her teacher. Judges for science fairs are looking for originality and probably a bit of relevance, and unfortunately her project this year has neither of these things. Basically, she has chosen a "wizz bang" experiment from a science experiment book and tried to put it into a scientific methodology with a hypothesis. Instead, she really needs to come up with a question that she is really interested in and then find out a way to test it. Looking in books can give you some ideas, but you really need to branch out. In addition, her project is not really relevant. I know that many "basic research" science investigations do not have obvious relevancy, but they at least could lead somewhere. For my son's project this year, who really cares if sand moves laterally on beaches? Except that the city council spends millions of dollars enriching nearby beaches that are being eroded. Whether fruit is more "electric" than vegis really just tells us that fruit has more acid in it, which would really be expected. So it just does not have that "unexpected" aspect to it, that interests people. For 5th grade, my ds's project took 8 weeks. Data collection alone took >20 hours, since he had to survey 28 slides, which each took 45 minutes. This year, 6th grade, he will be taking 15 to 20 measurements of sand movement at 2 different locations with 3 replications each. Each measurement cluster must occur on a different day depending on the tide table and wind speed, and each will take about 1.5 hours. I might add that the water is cooooool! I think you need to thinking bigger. HTH Ruth

Dawn, I am happy to guide you, but please be aware that the things that I will explain to you here should not be shared directly with your daughter. Children of this age need to be encouraged, and their budding scientific thinking guided carefully and gently. What I would tell her is very different than what I would tell you, her teacher. Judges for science fairs are looking for originality and probably a bit of relevance, and unfortunately her project this year has neither of these things. Basically, she has chosen a "wizz bang" experiment from a science experiment book and tried to put it into a scientific methodology with a hypothesis. Instead, she really needs to come up with a question that she is really interested in and then find out a way to test it. Looking in books can give you some ideas, but you really need to branch out. In addition, her project is not really relevant. I know that many "basic research" science investigations do not have obvious relevancy, but they at least could lead somewhere. For my son's project this year, who really cares if sand moves laterally on beaches? Except that the city council spends millions of dollars enriching nearby beaches that are being eroded. Whether fruit is more "electric" than vegis really just tells us that fruit has more acid in it, which would really be expected. So it just does not have that "unexpected" aspect to it, that interests people. For 5th grade, my ds's project took 8 weeks. Data collection alone took >20 hours, since he had to survey 28 slides, which each took 45 minutes. This year, 6th grade, he will be taking 15 to 20 measurements of sand movement at 2 different locations with 3 replications each. Each measurement cluster must occur on a different day depending on the tide table and wind speed, and each will take about 1.5 hours. I might add that the water is cooooool! I think you need to thinking bigger. HTH Ruth

Wow! You are so dedicated. Your desire to help your daughter to succeed in real research is awesome. It is not an easy ask if you have never done it yourself. I am also really pleased to see someone else besides me writing about science fairs! (I write on the logic board). I am currently writing up what my ds(11) has done on his project each week, and what kind of problems we are running into. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361740 And last year I wrote about 20 posts about science fair projects and the scientific method in general on this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263107 I don't know if you have seen them. As for what is required in a science fair project - it must be original research in either science or technology. It can be experimental or observational. I'm not so sure about the Panda project, without seeing it, it does sound like a research project to me also. You really need to read up on the rules/hints of your regional fair. Here is the link to our rules/hints page http://www.sciencefair.org.nz/~science/?q=node/4 I completely agree with you that science fair projects do not have to cost much at all. Our most expensive one has probably cost $20 (for the glue used in evaluating the best formula for silly putty). Our current projects so far have cost us nothing. My ds(11) is studying how wind, tide, and direction of the bay affect the long shore transport of sand. My younger son (8) is studying how the depth of topsoil varies depending on the slope and vegetation of the land. All we need are a shovel, ruler, compass, etc. I am happy to help you design a good project, but I would recommend you move this thread to the logic board, because that board moves more slowly and the thread won't be lost in the shuffle. I did scientific research for 6 years in my previous life, so have a bit of experience. This year is also my 8th and 9th science fair projects! Ruth in NZ

The worst I have ever done is wash and dry cherry chap-stick with a load of whites! Pink wax all over everything. Ruth in NZ

Until my ds was about 5, he had bright white hair. Every week for 5 years, Asian visitors to our city would stop us when we were out and ask to take his photo. They often wanted to hold him or have him leave my side and stand next to them for a photo (which we refused.) They would giggle and point and (of course) speak in a foreign language to their friends. It was confusing for my ds. He felt odd and exposed and truly started to hate his hair. We had to work hard for years to help him accept himself for who he was. I tell this story just to let you know that you are not alone.:grouphug: Ruth in NZ

Week 21. ds(11) 6th grade Rough draft: We obviously need to work on run-on sentences:001_smile:. He knows a lot about this subject, so he added to SWB's info when writing. When a main sequence star finishes converting all of its hydrogen into helium, it starts to collapse pulled by gravity towards the core of the star because the outward moving currents of superheated plasma, keeping the star from imploding, had cooled to a stop. Unfortunately, the helium cannot be fused together until it reaches the incredible temperature of 20 million degrees, but the temperature of the helium packed core of the collapsing star soon exceeds it, causing the helium to start to fuse. When the helium starts to fuse, the internal processes of the star start up again, but this time the currents of superheated plasma are much larger and actively expand the star turning it into a red giant, a star which is at least 100 times the size of the sun. Eventually, the red giant burns all of its supply of helium and the currents of superheated plasma will again come to a halt but this time the star is so large that the outer layer of the star dissipates into the space around it creating a planetary nebula. However, if the red giant is big enough it will collapse, and when it hits the core it will bounce off turning into a supernova, the largest explosion in the universe. In the middle of a planetary nebula there is a white dwarf. A white dwarf is what remains of the old star once it had ejected its outer layers. They are normally the size of Earth, but they are immensely condensed - a single teaspoon of the star would weigh ten tons. After nearly a billion years a white dwarf will finally cool down and become a black dwarf. Final Draft: I had him write an intro paragraph before I realized that SWB was going to teach that in the next lesson! The first sentence of paragraph 2 is still too long, but slightly less awkward. The Death of a Star For thousands of years, people believed that stars were stationary pin pricks of light in the sky. But in the 19th and 20th centuries, scientists were able to prove that stars change over billions of years. An average sized-star goes through a predictable sequence of stages, starting as a nebula and eventually ending as a small black sphere of carbon. When a main sequence star finishes converting all of its hydrogen into helium, the super-heated outward-moving currents of plasma, keeping the star from imploding, cool to a stop, and the star collapses, pulled by gravity towards the core of the star. Unfortunately, the helium cannot be fused together until it reaches the incredible temperature of 20 million degrees, but the temperature of the helium packed core of the collapsing star soon exceeds it causing the helium to start to fuse. When the fusion begins the internal processes of the star start up again, but this time the currents of super-heated plasma are much larger and actively expand the star turning it into a red giant, a star which is at least 100 times the size of the original star. Eventually, the red giant burns all of its supply of helium and the currents of super-heated plasma will again come to a halt. However, this time the star is so large that the outer layer of the star dissipates into the space around it creating a planetary nebula. However, if the red giant is big enough, it will collapse, and when it hits the core, it will bounce off turning into a supernova, the largest explosion in the universe. In the middle of a planetary nebula there is a white dwarf. A white dwarf is what remains of the old star once it ejected its outer layers. They are normally the size of Earth, but immensely condensed – a single teaspoon of the star would way 10 tons. After nearly a billion years a white dwarf will finally cool down and become a black dwarf.

I'm with you. I hate weekly experiments; I just never get around to them. Plus, what do the kids really learn for all the effort we as moms have to put in to get them done? For my kids, not much, at least not with what I have done. (ETA: I know very little about BFSU or Elemental Science, so can't help you there) In our house, we read, read, read for 7 months on a topic. And watch lots of documentaries. Then for 2 months at the end of the year, we do one big investigation of the child's choosing. Because it is the kid's idea, usually the interest lasts longer, and it also means that I don't feel any guilt for doing no hands on stuff throughout the year. The kids have never complained during the months that we spend reading because they know the investigation is coming up. Win win as far as I am concerned. I am currently writing about this year's investigation here http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361740 Hope this gives you some new ideas, Ruth in NZ

For me, the redirection through sensory input was the therapy. Over time, the thoughts faded to the point that they were gone and never came back. This process took 2 months. And now when I feel new thoughts bubbling at the surface, I use the technique right away and they never grow. Absolutely. I have only discussed this very difficult time in my life on a public forum in hopes that it might help someone either have compassion and understanding for a loved one suffering from it or be able to recognize the different forms this terrible illness can take. Thank you. So am I.

My pure-o had no ritual component. The bad thoughts came and there was nothing to do to stop them - that was why they were there all the time. I could not think my way out of them and never tried. In contrast with the checking, the fear that the stove was still on or the door was unlocked was reduced with the ritual of checking. Perhaps this is why I lived with the checking type for so long, I could reduce the stress with the ritual so I never felt out of control, whereas I could not reduce the stress with the pure-o. The difference is like night and day between the 2 for me.

Oh heavens, don't be harsh. I did not even know I had OCD, or I am sure I would have happily done anything to help myself. It just seemed normal to me, so I did not seek help. It was not until my younger sister took abnormal psychology in college, that I even knew there was a name for "that funny thing I do." By the time I had a name for it, I had reduced it to 1/2 intensity through my own efforts, and often much less if I was not stressed. So I was not driven to therapy or meds. And when I got the pure-o, I did not know that was OCD either. I just thought I was going crazy. I would never suggest that medicine would not help someone, but given that the OP was looking for understanding, I thought I would tell her that there are people out there who have been symptom free for 10 years without meds. I am absolutely not against meds. side effects or not. Do what works.

CBT did not work for me either, for the same reasons. It definitely exacerbated the pure-o. I was just thinking about the thoughts even more. I knew the thoughts were irrational, but that did not stop them going through my head over and over and over..... Instead, redirecting thoughts was very effective for me. I especially found the senses worked in my favor, specifically focusing all thought on the feel of the fabric of my clothing. If one method does not work, look for another. I will also say that I overcame my OCD without medication. Perhaps mine was less severe than others posting here, hard to say. When I was checking, I spent about 3 hours per day checking. This lasted about 5 years and then at a reduced level (perhaps 1.5 hours) for 10 more years. When I had pure-o, it was about 10 hours per day (basically all day, I seriously thought I was going insane). This lasted only 6 months because it was so awful that I found help very rapidly. The 2 types did not overlap in time. Today, I have no pure-o, and check perhaps only 15 minutes per day, which is acceptable to me. Good luck, Ruth

Consider yourself sooooo lucky. My ds (now 11) spent YEARS learning the facts. They just would not stick unless he did them 3 times per day for 3+ months! Too bad it took me 2.5 years to figure out that trick. Ruth in NZ

We ran into this problem. I decided that the multiplication tables were more critical to be able to do his math at that time, and subtraction he could always "figure out". So we left the subtraction tables behind and came back to them a year later after the multiplication tables were mastered. This is how he ended up memorizing the subtraction tables while concurrently doing AoPS intro algebra :001_huh: Ruth in NZ

My kids and I are working on our annual scientific investigations. I am posting detailed descriptions of what we are doing and thinking on the logic board http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=361740 DS11 (6th grade) is studying how sand moves laterally on the shore through wind and wave action. DS8 (2nd grade) is studying how topsoil depth varies with the slope of the land. Hope some of you find this helpful. Ruth in NZ

:lol: These are just the kind of ideas that my 8 year old would love!

I wrote an extensive review of Herodotus in post # 135 of this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348864&page=14 Ruth in NZ

My OCD is aggravated 10x over by stress, and school stress was the worst. I am a checker and an intrusive thoughts type. Once I left university, my symptoms reduced year after year.

We have 4 in 700sq ft apartment in the city backing up to a public park and have lived here for 8 years. 2 bathrooms for you is key. Here are a couple of tips: You need to use the bedrooms for more than just sleeping (play room and office should be in bedrooms), and you need to remember to close doors and respect them when they are closed. My boys share a room that is about 6 by 8 feet and they still play in it with the door closed. Definitely doable. Small houses take a lot less time to clean and encourage you to buy less stuff!!!! Ruth in NZ

um, you forgot the "none" category. Ruth in NZ

As far as I am concerned, they can enjoy messy play outside. Water, mud, dust. Sliding down hills, climbing trees, building forts. When they come in, I will give them a bath. For art, we do tidy water-color crayons, pencil drawings, and oil pastels. Blame it on the new carpet! But I have NO guilt. Ruth in NZ

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You should try Killgallon, http://www.amazon.com/Sentence-Composing-Middle-School-Worktext/dp/0867094192 . It provides exercises in sentence composition and style, and is much cheaper than IEW. I have reviewed many writing curricula on this thread that might help you: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348864 Ruth in NZ

AoA is absolutely excellent. I am using the new edition and there is nothing at all controversial or religious in them. I don't know about the Critical Thinking books, but AoA covers all the fallacies. My ds is memorizing them and now recognizing them in advertisements, newspaper editorials, and essays. It is a wonderful book. We do 1 fallacy per week and it takes about an hour including review. Ruth in NZ

Do you know how long does it take to complete the Elements? The Middle School Science program is 600pages, and I think it is a year long course.

Does anyone know how this compares to ACS's free Middle School Chemistry program? http://www.middleschoolchemistry.com/ Thanks, Ruth in NZ