That was initially as much as we hoped for, I think. As time went on and we found the vaccines could prevent infection and transmission in most cases, along with finding that even asymptomatic cases could lead to long Covid, I think an increasing number of people have the goal of not getting infected if they can possibly help it. From a public health standpoint, the former is all we need. From an individual standpoint, the latter makes sense for a lot of people. If it turns out I might transmit delta even though fully vaccinated, that changes how I’m going to interact with my elderly parents, whose vaccines may not be sufficient to prevent serious illness for them.

Yes, and it is so, so recent that this has happened. It means that none of the pre-existing research from 2010 and earlier can really be applied to this current population. And it means we have no long-term information on this group at all.

I frequently had that situation with my ds when he was younger, and wished there were far more family changing rooms. One of the places we did swim lessons at didn’t allow boys over 4 in the women’s locker room. That’s just ridiculous (we didn’t start there until he was much older—no way I could have sent him in alone at 5). I got the dirty looks sometimes, too. On the other hand, there was a point when there was one boy that joined his mom in the locker room, who had way too much interest in staring at the girls’ bodies in the room and his mom never diverted him. I started taking my kids to change in a different area because it was odd and uncomfortable. He was likely just curious, but he should have been getting instruction from his mom on proper behavior. I don’t feel like the threads themselves have been anti-trans, except for this one. I was wary of this going that way when this one started, because bathrooms seem to be one of the primary anti-trans hot button issues. I think part of what the discussion on the other thread has tried to do is move past labeling any concerns about some of the current transgender issues and trends as being transphobic or anti trans, and allow more nuance. I felt like that was (miraculously) able to happen in that space, though as I I have mentioned perhaps more than once, I have been worried throughout about having such open conversations in a space where they may be used by anti trans people. The bathroom issue is personally a bit fraught for me, because as a nb person, my kid has no ideal way to navigate it in spaces that don’t offer private spaces. So the gazillion dollar lessons work well enough to make it worth it? I looked into that for one of mine who has not progressed with standard lessons, but the price was shocking. But I don’t know how else they’re going to get swimming, and they have reached the age they are not going to be able to join friends for swimming parties, the lake, camp, etc. I agree most women probably wouldn’t mind once they realized the person had no male sex organs, but how does that person initially enter the space if they don’t “read” as female when clothed? If someone looks like a man, but has a female body, women are going to feel uncomfortable when he enters their space. Such individuals don’t have an ideal space unless private, because changing in the men’s room and exposing their female body in there is something that (from my parent point of view) feels very risky to them.

As a fellow Christian, I wish that reasoning wouldn’t be brought into this. It’s not going to reflect well, as it’s not really true, unfortunately. People are people. There are lots of reasons to discuss the issues raised by this (including several valid ones you brought up), none of which have anything to do with God or morality. I actually think what bathroom people use would be waaaaaaaay down God’s list (to the point of likely not appearing). We don’t want to legislate things in this country based on religion anyway.

Thanks for sharing this. I was struck by many things, but especially this from right after the part Chrysalis quoted: “In the rapidly moving and politicised debate, psychiatrists look to the RCPsych for guidance. Those providing and interpreting the scanty evidence from published research need to be independent and impartial, using best-quality measures rather than ideology. It is confusing to liken open-minded working with young patients as they figure out who they are to conversion therapy. Holding an empathic neutral middle ground, which might or might not include medical transition, should not be equated with this. Psychiatrists need to feel empowered to explore the meaning of identity with their patients, treat coexisting mental illness and employ a trauma-informed model of care when appropriate.” My dc (when upset) sometimes says they want to find someone who would do “conversion therapy” and I try to explain that exploring more deeply what is going on and addressing pre-existing issues isn’t conversion therapy, but that is the clear message they have gotten from everything they read. I also noted the graph of Tavistock referrals and the way it looked like it had leveled off, and I wondered if that had continued to hold, and I also wondered what the same graph would look like in the US. I know it’s not unusual for us to be a little behind trends that begin in the UK, so I’m wondering if the UK saw the leveling off earlier than we did here. I don’t get the sense that it’s leveling off here yet, but I have no numbers to base that on, only personal experiences.

Shut downs didn’t start until March of 2020. So, they certainly may have caused delay after that point, but wouldn’t have explained delays in 2018-2019. I don’t know how long construction was shut down in Florida. Seems like in general they didn’t shut down as much as other places, but I also have no idea at what point the bidding process in this had started.

Then you can understand why some people have problems with med compliance. On the other hand, the "crap" they use also gets a lot of people their lives back, and lot of people with psychosis live good lives, hold down jobs, etc, with the help of the crappy meds.

He has severe mental illness. When someone is dealing with psychosis, they’re not purposefully making bad choices.

This seems concerning to me as well. Seems like this is the third one of those kind of outbreaks I’ve seen, where everyone unvaccinated caught it and everyone vaccinated didn’t.

I think that’s largely a side effect of social media.

I think in our current context, private spaces are the only practical option. That’s very expensive, though. Perhaps there could be a combination of private spaces for people who want them, and then mixed spaces for people who don’t care. That gets around the problem of people feeling discriminated against if required to use the space for people of their sex. Plus, just separating by sex doesn’t work for everyone anymore, because a trans man in the women’s area is a different set of problems, as does a trans woman in the men’s area. And I don’t even know where a non-binary person goes. With Covid, dc hasn’t had to figure that out yet, but will very soon. They think they belong in the men’s rooms, because they think it’s not fair now for them to go in the women’s ones, since they don’t look clearly female. I find that very scary 😢. They don’t look male either, and are tiny. I’m pretty sure no one would think a thing about them in the women’s room. They wouldn’t be like it sounds this guy was, making a spectacle of themself (I don’t actually know if that’s true in this story, because I didn’t want to click on a video and couldn’t find the story on a middle of the road kind of source. It’s all over the place on very right wing sites, but not at all on middle or left-wing sites that I could find. That’s possibly telling in both directions. Or, it just didn’t actually happen like that. I don’t think specifics of this particular case actually matter to have this discussion, though.) Do the countries with mixed space nudity have lower rates of sexual assault overall than we do in the US? While I would be uncomfortable changing around a stranger with male anatomy, but with others around, it would be an absolute no way, no how, if I were the only one in a changing room except someone with male anatomy. That just goes against all my fear instincts 😢.

That is great! I keep reading there is plenty available right now, but physicians aren’t ordering it, so it’s great he has a proactive GP. I hope it helps him feel better quickly!

Any ideas why it would be that the mRNA vaccines would stimulate the germinal centers differently than other vaccines? It seems like the mRNA is just the method for getting the spike protein produced by the body so the immune system can respond to it. I’m trying to think why the method by which the spike protein comes about would change the immune response to it (I’m not an immunologist, clearly). I would think they would need to look at the same germinal centers in people who have been given different kinds of COVID-19 vaccines, to see if it’s specific to the type of vaccine, or if it’s more to do with to this particular spike protein, and similar would be seen with any of the vaccines that introduce the spike protein in one way or another.

That seems bad on the surface, but over 85% of adults over 50 are vaccinated in the UK. That means 57% of the cases came from the less than 15% who were not fully vaccinated. eta: while this shows the vaccines are working very well, they’re not perfect and it illustrates why I don’t think anyone should think poorly of the fully vaccinated elderly who are still masking everywhere. Or the fully vaccinated young people, for that matter.

You left out “I’m gay.”

Have you bought it recently? I read the reviews, and the recent ones are awful, all with the same complaint that the sponge falls apart before you can finish cleaning. Otherwise it looks like it would work well.

I saw that, too, but then, the WHO has to advise the entire world, the majority of which has very very low rates of vaccination. This is very true, and their recommendations have been on the less cautious side all along, because they don’t recommend things that aren’t practical to implement throughout the world. I have not used them as my personal guide post for Covid for this reason, but I still think their recommendation was relevant to this thread.

It’s on a different dimension than orientation. One can be asexual, but attracted to men, women, or both. Or there can be no romantic attraction either. The permutations seem almost infinite at this point. I think a lot of people who are ace are also gay. I agree it’s a whole different thing. It’s definitely considered an identity among many of those professing it though, but this conversation does make me consider if that really makes sense (is it just a measure of libido, with those who are ace being near the zero end of the scale, or is it something else?) My dc flies their ace flag along with their pride flag. They have experienced pain because of it, because they find it’s hard to find a partner when you’re ace, and they’d dearly like a partner.

Well...I think that's not necessarily so. There are certainly a lot of kids trying on identities, and it's not unusual to hear of kids changing around with some frequency, and you'll see it on their social medias as such, and those labels change. But, for other people who feel it deeper and more persistently, it can be a point of frustration and contention when they hear people say that it's temporary, particularly with the ace label, because there can be an undercurrent that they will change their mind if they just have the right person to change it, and people bristle at that. It's similar to the trope that lesbians sometimes have to hear from men who think that they can change a woman from lesbian to straight 🙄.

I wouldn't do it, but I'm a rule follower like that. I would also worry if whoever gave her the vaccine could get in trouble if/when it is discovered (which it seems likely would be once it shows up in the vaccine data base, unless you live in Texas). I'm actually hopeful the trials of lower doses for younger kids will go well and will mean they can use a lower dose for younger kids and hopefully that will also reduce side effects even more. It's crummy timing with school, because it's likely approvals won't come through until September.

Maybe it will help you knowing that it doesn’t always mean the person has anxiety. My whole family masks indoors in public still, and none of us for anxiety reasons (I do have a kid with pre-existing anxiety, but none of the rest of us do it due to anxiety, nor do they). I do believe there are some people who do it due to anxiety. And I give them grace for that after what we’ve lived through. I don’t think it will always be this way. It’s just that it’s not over yet. We got vaccinated to protect ourselves and others from catching Covid, not so that we could stop masking (though that will be nice), so I may have a different outlook.

I’m pretty sure just inside (or in crowds outside), but I’d have to find the whole statement to be sure. I will share if I find it. It bothers you when other people mask?

That's a fair question, and I almost didn't write it, because I knew I would be called on it 😉. Suicide rates are definitely much higher. Enough so that it's frequently evident even when you don't look at the statistics (which verify it). In my high school of 1200 kids, there was a suicide the year before I was there, and one my freshman year. That was it for those 5 years at that school. In my local schools now, it is much higher than that, with it not being uncommon for their to be multiple cases in one year. Obviously there were people with mental illness back then, as there always have been, but I know of so many kids debilitated by it now, and didn't then. If the rates were the same then as now, I don't see how it wouldn't have been obvious then as it is now. So, that's not a very scientific answer other than the suicide rates, and I can't prove it's true, but I think a lot of people working with kids will agree with it. Other people answered, so I'll just agree with what others said. I agree kids as young as 14 need to be learning that it's normal not to feel sexual attraction and doesn't necessarily mean they never will. I definitely get the idea from my ace kid that they expect that everyone who identifies as hetero or homosexual has a lot of interest in sex, which I don't think is true. For some, being asexual will be lifelong, for some it may change as they get older. At least it seems like a pretty innocuous identity to take on, as it doesn't require any medical treatment, and seems easy to shift if someone decides they want to at some point. Interesting thought. I hadn't considered that. I'm trying to recall, but I'm pretty sure it predates medication for my dc. Though, bcp were probably already on board, and those have the same effect. I think it's more deeply ingrained for them, though.

I didn't say anything at all about idyllic. I agree mental health awareness and treatment are much better now (though still not great at all) and I'm very glad therapy is no longer as stigmatized (especially as we have had to make heavy use of it in our family). However, the dramatic increase in suicide rates among young people and the very high prevalence of psychiatric prescriptions for young people is very real and I don't think it's all a case of mental health awareness being better now (if it's better, we shouldn't be having more suicides). I muse on these things because it affects us, and I'd like to think of how we might make it better, not because I'm pining for the good old days. I do know that serious mental health difficulties just weren't as prevalent when I was a teen as they are now.

I totally get this and am over the whole thing myself also. I think I'm helped by having a pretty pragmatic outlook on things that just are, so I see this as just how it is and am not prone to spending much time thinking about how it could/should be different (though I do wish there was a switch we could turn off when we were done with all that stuff!). Sometimes I wonder if our current ways of parenting kids such that we try to fix problems and avoid any significant discomfort for our kids contributes to some of this. This doesn't go just for gender dysphoria, but I've mused whether this contributes to the enormous increase in depression and anxiety rates. I sense that kids tend to feel alarmed if they are unhappy or anxious, and it feeds into a cycle that makes those feelings escalate. I think when we were growing up, we were more likely to think feeling unhappy or anxious were just part of the normal range of feelings and we didn't fixate or catastrophize on them. Honestly, it's made me parent my younger kids differently, to not work to make them happy and comfortable all the time and not solve all their problems. Hopefully they will be more resilient for it.