This is not *exactly* what you are looking for, but I thought i would interject... But I have found an excellent book (and there is a second one that I just haven't purchased yet) that presents big math concepts through story and drawings. My boys LOVE it. Penrose the Mathmatical Cat by Theoni Pappas (she has tons of good math books). Also, I believe that in general you should use more than one angle (or curriculum) to teach any subject. So with math in addition to our singapore, we read Penrose, Life of Fred, and do problems orally out of Zaccaro's math books. I suppose it can get a bit expensive, but my kids get a very thorough understanding of math from many different sources. It probably works out to being the same cost as a few other boxed full course curriculums. I am happy with how it is working out. And I am doing both my boys at the same time, they only have different singapore workbooks.

Thanks all of you!!! I want to say a couple of things... as I can never seem to help myself anyway....:001_smile: I never really thought about using my MCT for writing. If you noticed before, I said that I have never used anything exactly as written. I think it's that I just dismissed it out of hand because my boys are totally capable of understanding all levels of the program, but the parts that you could use as writing exercises are at the same level, advanced... where my kids are still what I would call "beginning" writers. I will look at it again. I am now not only trying to decide *which* program I might go with... but if I even do one at all. I have an old copy of Bravewriter, I have my MCT stuff, a library, a pad of paper and a brain.... maybe I can save myself $30+ and wing it. I can buy the kids a sushi dinner after completing enough writing! :D Now does THAT sound crazy? Probably! Those other 2 programs sound great too! ARG!!! korin

Aren't Magic Lens and Word Within the Word, gifted 6th and normal 7th?

I second the 40%-50% off coupons at Michaels.... My husband is an illustrator and uses the regular PC pencils. I bought the scholar pencils for our trip to Italy and was disappointed, they seemed to break too easily. However.... if they are working fine for you, keep using them until you really feel the need to upgrade. They are far superior to most other CPs. I would say to look at your $$ budget, and decide how it works out. The regular PG will last a bit longer. The amount you buy, is again, up to you... more will give more options, but is probably totally unnecessary at this age. Good luck!:D Korin

First of all, thanks so far for the suggestions.....:001_smile: If I could figure out how to quote (and am not in the mood to figure it out right now:)), I would but i will just address one thing... just to clarify!.... I don't find it frustrating to gather things, though it is nice not to, and I DEFINITELY don't worry about wether or not I am "doing it right".... I don't think that I have ever, and I mean, EVER followed any curriculum as stated. I am beginning to see the value in "scripting" but in general, I dislike it. I would probably get the WB though, for my own sanity. Although I like the idea behind WWE and most of SWBs materials, I have never been able to swallow her formatting. The books are always laid out very counter-intuitively to my way of thinking and teaching... not to mention my irritation with certain font styles (especially in OPGTR). It makes it difficult for me to get as much out of the programs as I should. I am super visual, and more than comfortable with expanding on any concept. I just am hitting a bit of a wall, just as I am starting to attempt it. I know that I will never find any curriculum that is "just right" ~ I mean, I am a MCT devotee and I STILL can't follow his stuff exactly. I still l modify it! :D But, if he had an elementary writing program I would be all over it. I do have the WWE "strong foundation" book, or whatever it is called, on my library hold list... so I hope to get a really good look at it soon. I have to go take the boys to deliver their paper route! Where did my day go!:lol: Korin

So I am always tooling around looking for stuff, I am getting better at choosing but... :tongue_smilie: This is what I am toying with... but I want advice/opinions anything!! Jump in Writing... too religious? Or is it really workable? Worth it? Would I need TM? Stack the Deck series... specifically Flip & Check the deck.... TM, necessary? Writing with ease... what level? Foundation book or workbook? ARG! Or do I just stick with an occasional freewrite and those sorts of things? My boys are 10 & 9 with a very solid understanding of grammar, vocab etc. (thank you MCT!) but with questionable "actual" writing skills. Classic left-handed, boy, perfectionist, contrarian, challenging (gifted) types with varying degrees of each of these lovely qualities depending on the moment. So I have the super high understanding vs. terrible skill set (handwriting, spelling, motivation) with these two. Part of it is my fault, but I still believe that I have chosen to do the right thing in not pressing the issue until their hands could catch up to their brains. This is just that hard few months of jamming them together, right? anyway.. I want to place my rainbow order soon! Thanks in advance!!

If you are ordering from Ray at horrible books, I would suggest just getting a couple at first to see what you (and your kids) think. I would suggest for absolute starters... Murderous Maths (1) and The Essential Arithmetricks. For the older one i would say it depends... this is a really good place to see what many of the books are all about, they are reviewed by a kid. http://fun-books.com/books/murderous_maths.htm it might be better to order from there, even though the prices are a bit higher, due to shipping and/or availability. these books are great!

Well.. here is my opinion. If you were offering him a choice, then you should respect his choice, practicality or not. I happen to think that, yes... Spanish is technically more practical... but really, they are very similar and if he learns Italian he should be able to muddle along in Spanish when needed. My husband is Italian, family in Italy and all, so that is our foreign language of choice (AND practicality). What will he gain if he learns Italian over Spanish... being able to get around in Italy!!! Italians LOVE americans who know Italian. Italy is one of the coolest countries on the planet. It is also a very complex language, that is (obviously) the closest to Latin. It is fun to speak. Most operas are written in Italian. Most musical terms are Italian. I could go on, but you get the idea... for the size of the country Italy has probably the most influence of any other language or culture as it permeates so much of western culture. I would say you can look at the practicality vs. desire and outcome. If he learns Italian he can go to Italy for the summer (or whenever) and enjoy the history of the country in a way that he couldn't otherwise. The main downside is that it is harder to find Italian stuff used. :) I don't know where you live, but there is usually some sort of Italian society in most cities, or at least in the state... I do know of a few books that are good and you can email me off list and I will try to find links to them. Bouna Fortuna! Korin

My older son is the complete PIA, too. I find myself regularly reminding him that HS him is a privilege and that if he doesn't even *try* and keeps being so frustrating, I will not do it anymore. I also explain that I demand less of him than a school will (I mean in the way of sitting still, staying in a chair, being flexible with his output etc.) and he would quickly wish he hadn't pressed me so hard. However, I am sure he knows that I just cannot send him... Now, the thing is you need to do what is best for you, your kids your family, and whatever decision you make is alright.

I wasn't going to post anything, but I bothered to go through all 16 pages (??!!) so WHY NOT? I too am getting pretty good at picking curriculum. I am also pretty good at finding stuff used... :) All of these are MY opinions, my children might say otherwise... Winners: Dr. Art's Guide to Science The Way Life Works Michael Clay Thompson's L.A. (especially Caesar's English) bits of Bravewriter Singapore Key to... Any math lit. (i.e. Theoni Pappas, Murderous Maths etc) Dead Famous Series Picture the Renaissance by Jackdaw AAS seems to be going well so far Secular Homeschooling Magazine GP Junior history 1-3 Classic Literature graphic novels Losers: Spellwell GP SYRWL History 1 Anything teaching cursive Looking forward to: More MCT History at our House Joy Hakim's science series Getting around to Minimus Finally starting Rosetta Stone Italian LofF fractions/ decimals I have many wonderful things on my shelves waiting for me to get off my butt and use them.... hopefully..... I know I am forgetting many things.....

And I think I was the first one to mention his curriculum. But that was so many pages ago... who knows:tongue_smilie:! I know that as he is an advertiser in Secular HS mag, and Deborah is pretty stringent about her advertising, it would be an important secular curriculum option for grades 5-8. I plan on using it this year. I appreciate anyone who caters to the secular HS community, as there are few options out there.... really. Why else are there so many threads about secular stuff or "can I secularize x,y,z?". I think any discussion and mention of any product that is a. secular and b. not a school curriculum modified for HSing is a good thing. Also, I always appreciate people mention several things they like, as people who enjoy one type of thing, usually like another.... and if I agree with a few of their selections, I trust that I will probably find value in their other selections. So, as this thread is insanely long, and I need to get off the computer I will re-list my suggestions for this age group.. as I have a 5th & 4th grader, but they are TAGlets with a crappy set of writing skills. MCT LA series --excellent Singapore/ Zaccaro / KEy to..../ Penrose the mathmatical cat- theoni pappas books Teaching Company video/ audio lectures graphic novels seeing shakepeare performed live AAS (spelling) bits and peices of Bravewriter I will be using HAOH Science, I am still unsure about, but they do classes at the local gifted program several times a year The way life works

They are both easy. In our state, IF you use a test as an assessment option, they must be 25%ile or higher.

I still vote for the prismacolors. The cheapo colored pencils are more frustrating than they are worth. I would also like to say that I think that the "scholars" PC pencils are not very good. They break too easily. A different suggestion is a set of plastic crayons from http://www.barebooks.com they are very nice to use, cheap, don't look or act like crayons and can be sharpened just like a pencil. Plus this company has excellent blank books. Korin

I think what you are looking for *could* be called a taboret.... my husband has a small one on his drawing table... but while searching for an example, a different sort of art storage thing came up... big and expensive. Anyway, why not just get a shoe box, have your kiddo decorate it and fill it with paper towel tubes of varying height (cut them with scissors) even some toilet paper tubes... Jam them all in (maybe after painting them?)and glue them in bottom... voila! a crazy homemade colored pencil holder! great, now I have to go make one.... korin again

I just have a plastic container, like rubbermaid or whatever, that has a closing lid. They then lay flat. I dislike upright containers for colored pencils, as they can break if they are put in point first. Also, you can put a few other supplies in there with them, like a sharpener and kneaded erasers. Not good for organizing though, but... who cares? It's for your kids! They can use it then shove it under the bed. ;) Korin (whose husband is a professional illustrator and spends a fortune on super crazy high quality colored pencils. He keeps his in either the prismacolor box or an old 8 x 10 photo paper box.)

"next level"meaning.... WWTW and Magic Lens. not enough coffee... off to remedy that:001_smile:

I just want to clarify this, as you didn't state what level you were looking at.... Grammar Island, Town, voyage and all the corresponding books with each of those levels you only require the Teacher Manuals (with the exception of the practice books where you need both). BUT... in the higher levels, like Word within the word and magic lens, you will need the student text AND homeschool teacher's manual. The HS TM is cheaper than the normal TM. RFWP is very thoughtful with regards to HSers, and you can also call to double check on anything. They sell HS "packages" as well, ones with all books... ones with TM only and practice books. I am still in the "town" series... but that is my understanding as you get into the next level. Korin

I do believe you read all the books. They should be laid out in the IG for you, by chapters or pages. You can read them out loud to your kids... THEY don't have to read them. It is only little chunks

I personally *adore* the Aquatic ape theory... :D

I have the same issue, in a way... my husband is Italian (and I mean from Italy, Italian) and I can't teach the kids Spanish, as it is too close to Italian and I think would be confusing for my kids. And trust me, they *have* to learn Italian or the family in Italia will not let us stay at their house! :D So I *try* to figure out the Italian equivilant word when I can. It is never a big deal, it just requires a small bit of work on my part, and sometimes i just skip it.... I show how the latin vs. english vs. spanish relates and explain that the Italian is probably in between the latin & spanish. So, I you can find the French equivelant on your own... I do kind of wish he had a larger translation base... like a sheet with other languages on it... french , italian, whatever other languages are based on latin to further illustrate the latin=language connection. Maybe I will suggest that to him. RFWP, and MCT are very good at trying to improve their program and are usually quite agreeable to requests.... :)

I agree w/ nmoira. I adore CE. I think it would actually *compliment* Latin. It would make it make more sense.... and WHY to study it.

This thread is making me so happy that I haven't gone the paypal route yet! My brain hurts!:tongue_smilie:

DUH! the reason it is "in a different category" is due to it's multi-pronged, in depth and varied approach, using literature and cross curricular language and thinking skills. Like I said before, I am only halfway through CE I, and if I were to buy "Vocabulary from the roots up" as an added program (cause i am just like that) I would choose level B or possibly even C... It treats the students in a very sophisticated way... my kids already know how to deconstruct words to discover what the "should" mean... and how language is how it is..... i'll stop now.:tongue_smilie:

It isn't as "lovely" visually as the Level one books, or even grammar town, paragraph town, but it's content is exquisite! You can choose to go as in depth or superficially as you like... I prefer discussions and brainstorms and then at some other point copying the roots, vocab & definitions into a notebook... I have a 9 & 10 year old that I do these books ogether with, and they are both not good in the "skills" department, just super high in the comprehension, understanding department. The "lessons" are split into different skill sets. Odd numbered lessons have 5 or so latin stems, very in depth analysis of their meaning, then analogies, then an advanced word and analysis, "Who's that writer?" where a famous author is introduced, caesar's spanish... where there you have the latin stem, english example of a word with that stem and it's spanish equivalent (I also add Italian, as we do Italian NOT Spanish.) then a little roman factoid or quote and a Julius Caesar quote, a word search a real latin quote then a discussion poster . You can see where one lesson is not just one lesson!!! I split it up into little bite sized bits. Even numbered lessons are like this.... 5 very advanced vocab words, with in depth analysis and several quotes from famous literature, "Who's that writer?" again, "What is that Writer saying?" discuss some short passages from famous books with the vocab words, Caesar's Spanish.. latin, english, spanish versions of the vocab words, synonyms, Caesar's re-writes where you are given another famous passage and try to rewrite it in a simpler fashion, a real latin quote, antonyms, analogies, a word poster and test review. You can make this as minimal or intense as you and your kids want... I choose concept over output, but that is not going to last too much longer (shhh! Don't tell my kids!) And I enjoy wallowing in the depth of each lesson. It introduces very complex vocabulary though several different approaches, some are more rewarding than others... but if we don't like a certain area I skip it. To give you an example... the first 5 vocab words are these: profound, countenance, manifest, prodigious, languor. These might seem like odd words to choose, but they worked perfectly. I don't knwo how someone actually chooses what an appropriate vocabulary word might be for a certain age... it must be pretty arbitrary with so many wonderful words in the world! MCT takes these seemingly oddball words and chooses actual sentences from classic literature , (mary shelley, shakespeare, george orwell, etc etc)..and shows how one word can be used in so many different ways. I find myself having pretty interesting conversations with my boys, and they are excited when one of their CE words pops up in a book or movie, and they enjoy looking for places to use the words (or words we discover through it.... ie.. my 10 loves the word "repugnant" which we found through "odious" one of the vocab words). WOW! How (and why!) did I write all this!? The thing is, that I LOVE this book, my kids enjoy it... but they don't love it. I see what it is doing far more than they know. Also, it is NOT for everyone. I can see where someone might look at it and just hate it, in the same way that I might pick up certain curriculum (who's name I have mercifully blocked from my memory) and start crying. Anyway... I love the MCT books, although I did not like "building language" too much. Too much Spanish. The poetry books are great too. The othe rgood thing as that if you don't find them as rewarding as others do, they are very easy to sell! :D someone cover my keyboard with duct tape! KOrin

Caesar's English (MCT) is just about my favorite thing to do. Yes, it is parent intensive, but in a good way. I usually just read a section of it with both my kids and we have discussions. It has led to some very interesting places. It is definitely in a different category than a lot of other programs, but if you are willing to take a chance it is worth it. I have a 9 & 10 year old and we are halfway through CE I. When at a HS convention I looked at Vocab. from the Classical Roots A, and found it intriguing. After looking at it for a while, I thought if I were to get it I would go with level B (as a supplement to where they are) .... only later did I realize this was an 7th/8th grade level book. :001_smile: