Thanks a lot guys, now I have to look at all this.... :glare: I was going to totally wing it this year on science.

how many times can I type "I am sure" in one post.... :tongue_smilie:

In my opinion, it is acceptable to share the SM, especially as it is mostly review. I do my 2 kids at the same time, and they "master" words at the same time. I am sure you can keep track of any oddities w/o having 2 separate sets. You can make your own letter tiles. My kids don't like spelling with them anyway. I still do them, they just ask if they can write them instead. I say, no, we're going to do some of them. I am sure some other opinions and suggestion will follow shortly!

What about MCT Caesar's English? I have my 9 & 10 year olds doing it, and when I looked at Vocab from the Classical Roots I would place my kids in book A or possibly B. Now, I had no idea that that was 7th & 8th grade... I thought they were the first 2 books. I love CE, but.. that is just me... I know that I will use V from the C R at sometime though.... it looked right up our alley. Good luck!

GREAT!!!:D (I still haven't bothered to figure out how to do quotes) Don't feel bad about HSLDA, they are very narrow in their focus who they choose to help out. They will discriminate against a HSer who they do not agree with... that would be about religion or HS style (even if you are Christian, they don't like unschoolers or other more relaxed forms of HS). They are a private organization, that I personally dislike... but whatever.:tongue_smilie: Lots of people think they're swell so, C'est la vie! Home Ed. mag is also pretty rabid about HS vs. charter school. But it is my impression that they are there to kind of counteract some of the HSLDA stuff, and they are VERY into HS freedoms, but more along the lines of unschooling, eclectic, CM basically any "style" that is a bit outside the box. you can still gain a lot of insight from the mag though. In that respect, yes, you are in the middle but there is no reason you should have anything to do w/ HSLDA anyway, you wouldn't qualify. I think that it isn't YOU or anyone using a charter who weakens the HS "movement" it is the mislabeling and misleading tactics that plenty of eschools/charters use to gain students, and henceforth $$$. This goes back to my first (or second, or third) post about "muddying the waters" it is not the people who use it, it is the people who run these schools. This is so far away from your original question! SORRY!!! :rolleyes: Seriously though.. it's been great, but I'll shut my pie hole now. :lol:

I will bring the cocktails!:D

Who here is treating you with disdain? I have pointed out several times that I have no problem with eschooling as an option, it is just that there IS a very important distinction between it and homeschooling. In a very specific legal sense. It may *seem* like semantics, but it can end up being a slippery slope but those who are on this end of things need to be vigilant about being very clear on. It is not an attack against you or eschooling. I am not judging you. I don't think anyone has here. It only needs to be clarified that there IS a difference between the way you choose to educate and probably a majority of people here. I don't think that the original question you asked was something that a lot of people on this forum could help you with. Especially as giftedness is it's own sticky wicket and funding is drying up everywhere for everything. I will find out in the fall (when our gifted enrichment program starts back up, and I get a chance to talk to school parents) if funding and resources are lost or rededicated in re. to the gifted programs. I think that the trend for a while will be to slash the programs. So I feel you might be out of luck to a certain extent... but again, I am in Ohio so what do I know!:D I can see where you might feel neither here nor there... as you are essentially utilizing a hybrid-type of program. But you shouldn't. I think everyone should do what is best for their families and children. Every year I reassess everything. I am firmly committed to HSing, but if it stopped being a good fit, I would ditch it. I also think that it is important for ALL options to be available to as many people as possible. Now see I am a minority, within a minority, within a minority. Homeschooling. Minority one. Homeschooling for educational, philosophical & social reasons. Not religous. I am totally secular. Minority two. Homeschooling gifted kids. Minority number three. Now lets not get into my political ideas, artistic endevours, parenting style, movies, books or music I like or feelings about society. :lol: I rarely have a nook to fit into, and I have gotten to the point where I am ok with that. It started when I was reading at a middle school level at age 2, and now at 38... well.... anyway... sorry if you feel bad or ridiculed. I know that I did not intend it. It's all good. :D

ok, I have had one cup of coffee, my husband is on a bike ride, my boys are playing with legos.... I might be able to conquer this..... First of all I live in Ohio, where there are several statewide eschools. This year they are all threatened with budget cuts and their own poor performance levels. On paper, charter schools are not particularly successful. I am sure this has to do with a myriad of factors, but not very relevant to the discussion. Homeschooling, while having a lot of failures, also has a lot of successes but it is not tracked or assessed in the same way as a charter. The thing I meant with the "con" of it being HSing is that while the schooling is done at home, it is still a public school. The charter schools have bad numbers. Homeschooling is perceived as giving your kids a better, individualized education. I think many parents who don't really understand the difference in the beginning are tricked into thinking that they are heading down the road of better schooling, no putting their child in a seemingly poor performing school. Still the biggest factor is the $$ and the strings attached to it. It muddies the water by saying that a public school at home is somehow "the same" as a person going totally outside of the educational system. They aren't the same but if enough people regard them the same way for a long enough time, there is a possibility that people will no longer see the real distinction, and decide that HSing only has to do with WHERE it is done and not how or why it is done. It can accidentally erode the rights and regulations regarding the traditional meaning of homeschooling. Does that make any sense? I think that eschools are a good option, and I concede that I do not know CA laws, but have heard they are really a pain. In Ohio depending on the school, you might be able to choose some of your books, but mostly you would do what the school decides. You are given a computer, they pay for high speed internet access, you are given all the books, and depending on a few factors you are given $300-$800 per kid for covering some subjects outside (like music lessons, gym, whatever). You have to meet with a teacher (online) for assessments whenever they say. You need to log in a certain amount of time per day on the computer and they seem to be pretty good about having your kid be at different levels for different subjects, depending on their ability. There are days when I think about the perks, and I toy with looking into it seriously. I would definitely choose to go that route before a B & M school if I were unable to HS my kids properly anymore. Right now I am not willing to trade my freedom for the cash. Hopefully that will always be the case. Homeschooling is NOT about where you school. I have plenty of friends who eschool, who go to a bunch of HS functions. I don't discriminate against eschoolers. We all are in a similar boat. We as parents who are overseeing most of the day to day work have the same needs and questions and complaints. How we choose to educate is not very relevant: unschool, classical, CM, eschool.... but there will always be a difference between a HS "style" and public school at home. I have to follow certain regulations and comply with certain things that an eschooler never will. I think I have rambled enough. I actually plan on handing in my notification and assessment for this year today and I need to tweak it.

I think that eschooling IS a totally wonderful and viable option. I have no problem with it. AT ALL. I DO have a problem with the schools THEMSELVES using the term "homeschooling". It is misleading and muddies up the waters. There is a fundamental difference between public/private/charter school at home and homeschooling. It is $$ and it is jumping through whatever hoops it has attached to you utilizing it. But we all are doing the teaching and spending the time with our kids and doing it at home. I think that the schools themselves go out of their way to con a lot of people...but that is a different can of worms and a totally silly tangent. There is a legal clarification though. Each state has different HS laws and regulations that we must comply with. I do not know CA's. But sitting around the kitchen table there is no difference. We all want to do the best for our children, and someday you might go "traditional" and I might go computer. Things change! BTW you can do all this on very little $$ really. We are a one income household and I have no idea how we manage.. but we do... I spend more than I need to though...just 'cause I love to own books so much! some math workbooks and the library... sample lessons from various publishers. You need to be creative, but it can be done. :) but as far as gifted stuff, that is always going to be difficult!

I would say other than the pre-requisite of " Check out Hoagie's" would be these 2 sites and books by these 2 authors and one other list. http://www.brightkidsathome.com (These may or may not be secular. I do believe that This one DEFINITLY is secular.) http://www.thehomeschooldiner.com David Albert Lisa Rivero -- she wrote Creative HSing, teaching gifted kids at home (some sort of variation of that general title) and The Homeschool Option. also google "a nation deceived" join tagmax (gifted hs list) or tagfam (gifted reg. school list) you should make sur ethat you join on "digest mode" (my opinion only! ) and ask your questions there... the thing is that I am not sure I understand "independent charter school". I am assuming that this an eschool, but is this one funded by the state? It definitely makes a difference. Technically, you would not be HSing in the legal sense of the word, but you are in literal terms. I hope someone will be able to help you but there are a few things to consider... as traditional homeschoolers (whatever style you may choose) we do not have any access to funds at all, so talking about getting addtl. funds is a moot point. Gifted or not, LD or not. We choose to go "off the grid" educationally, and are treated accordingly. In the regular educational world, gifted kids are notoriously underserved and it is difficult to get what you need no matter what. It just is, they don't seem to be a priority. Now, the thing is... if your 'Independent charter school' is providing your curriculum and doleing out some funding... the statement that "by virtue of being homeschooled my child's needs as a gifted student were met" is bogus. If it is a state funded eschool, you are not HSing, and they shouldn't be able to hide behind that banner when it is convenient. Testing is important for specific things... it depends on what your needs really are. In a B & M school, public, private or computer... I would think it is necessary and as far as I know, should also be paid for... but it depends on each state and each school district's testing/ funding regulations. I think you might need to clarify a bit... to get a more precise answer. The Lisa Rivero books are pretty decent though. :001_smile: I think that the numbers of people choosing to HS for educational reasons is growing every year, and gifted kids in particular. NCLB is a factor, in my opinion, but it is more like "one more nail in the coffin" than anything else. A tipping point. As time goes on, more books or studies will be written... but as you can completely tailor a child's education when HSing there can't really be a definitive study. really. we're all too weird. :D love ya!!! toodles!!! I am watching 6 kids today (only 2 are mine) :eek::eek: I need a cocktail!

I have been wondering the same thing.... However, you could buy it and see... and if it doesn't fit yet put it on a shelf until it does. What about about a different Zaccaro title? Like "become a problem solving genius"? I personally love Theoni Pappas books, I haven't looked at too many, but we ADORE "Penrose the Mathmatical Cat" in our house.

Minimus people... FYI.... The company allowed the minimus yahoo group (I am pretty sure that's what it is) to scan for download every page of the TM as it is priced outrageously high for non-classroom use. I thought that was pretty nice of them.

Now, I have my coffee in my hand, but I can't gaurantee (sp?)that will help! First off, just a side comment.... I do wish that there was a different word to describe us and/or our children that isn't so, um... condescending. I also get irritated when I hear some parents saying that they don't believe in Giftedness as "all children are gifts". Ugh. way to miss the point.... I happen to be involved in a gifted enrichment program in our town, and I hear school horror stories all the time. I also meet more taglets and parents of taglets than most people :D. When I hear a lot of these "my kids aren't being served" types of comments, I always make myself available to discuss HSing. I know that I have made the right decision for my kids, no matter how hard it gets sometimes... I only need remind myself about all the crap these "schoolies" go through with their kids. I also suspect that a teacher would suggest that there was something wrong with my older kid, and that my younger one needed to be on medication. My older one has a very low "work ethic" and doesn't like to do any busywork so I am sure that a teacher would think he was um, flat out dumb. Luckily, he doesn't care what people think about him, but I would never put him in that situation. My kids would be too much of a handful for a classroom. :) I don't know why I started writing this... must go get more coffee....

I will finish level 1 TODAY with my 9 & 10 year olds. I am very glad that I decided to start at the beginning. I didn't need to do all of the examples, or do too much review....like I probably would have had to do with a younger kid. It only took a few weeks. I am pretty confident now with their understanding of the rules in the first book and they enjoyed not having made a single mistake!! Well, one.. that was then figured out immediately and explained... by my son. I am really glad that I found this program, and then whenever we finish it, I feel that If I need to continue with spelling I will go on to Sequential spelling again. Luckily, I own the first 3 books already. I can see where an older kid might freak out thinking "this is way too easy and babyish" but I explained how it was important to lay the foundation and that it wouldn't take long etc etc. then they had fun with it.

I will throw my little ol' opinion in here... I think that people who don't have TaG kids think that everything is easy for us, parents and kids. As if being able to understand concepts or ideas easily or quickly means that we never need to work. We can put anything in front of our kids and Voila! all done, understood and some sort of amazing project appears. They do not understand the AGONY that can go along w/ giftedness. The twice exceptional factor. The INTENSE emotional life. The lengths we must go to finding appropriate material, meeting the intellectual needs while still taking into consideration their emotional age. The fine line between perfectionism and a serious meltdown. General society doesn't look at Tag kids as needing any special attention. They need just as much as those on the lower end of the spectrum, probably more. They are special needs kids, just in a different way. I think that if your kid had downs syndrome, your friend would have no problem hearing about what they did today.... but really it is the same sort of issue. Your child was born with the intellectual capacity and wiring that they now have. Many people don't care to look at things in a critical way. well.. I am starting to ramble and I haven't had enough coffee, so I am sure I am not making the sense I might... :D Korin

I could read when I was 2. I was not taught I just did it. I think it was a combination of a certain amount of visual logic combined with a great visual memory, but the biggest part was that my parents and brothers read to me all the time. I also had an internal drive to do it, as no one ever sat down and taught me a thing. I think that starting a formal reading program at 2 is a bit odd, personally, but you did it, so.... there you go... I would also say that if she isn't reading fluently after a year, she might not have been ready. But really, how do I know? I would chime in with the backing off and do the fun reading with/ to your child. Why skip that part? I still sit and read to my 9 & 10 year olds all the time. It is a wonderful family activity. A thing to consider also is that if your kid really takes off in reading, it becomes very difficult to find appropriate reading material. If they are advanced readers, but still young... it is pretty hard to find good books. However, you should be able to satisfy that with some classic books, but they might bore the kids. It is a sticky wicket. I know that there are many good people on this list with lots of great suggestions. I just wanted to add mine. Korin

That is a simple solution, but you shouldn't have had to do it. That should have been considered by the people picking the font, I forget if it had the fancy Gs and As.... It is just an oversight/lack of consideration that made me question other parts of it. I really don't like to write in my books if I can help it. All the text on the page was the other big issue. Like I said, my son (uber smart, but generally against reading as it doesn't follow consistent rules) didn't like seeing what I was reading, on the page, smaller, etc etc. it made him feel worse about his struggle with reading, by seeing how far he would have to go. Also, it didn't appeal too much to me either. But We are weird anyway. :D k.

I couldn't deal with OPG AT ALL! I thought that by having all the parent text on the page was intimidating to my son, and was frustrating as he could then see just how much work he would have to do, and how poorly he was doing. Also the font that was chosen really made me angry (really!) as it had the capital I that looked like a lower case L. My son would ALWAYS read it as an L and would get angry at it too (I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree) I am not sure if I would've noticed it if he didn't have the problem. I just thought it was a bit careless on the editor's part. I still think that it is a good and thorough program, we just couldn't do it. And thanks for reminding me that I need to sell it! We ended up using "The Reading Lesson" that was totally excellent then after that just read Magic school bus books. my whiny two cents. Korin

I want to point out that, although MCT materials were written w/ gifted kids in mind, they are by no means "for gifted kids ONLY". They were written by a person who is obviously very passionate and knowledgable about grammar and the English language and wanted to fill a gap that he saw in it's implementation. It also is NOT for everybody. I think it is an excellent program, but if you don't see it... you probably won't ever see it. I look at some curriculum and want to cry when I see it, think it is horrible, but know that there are thousands of people who think it is great. I also think that the website doesn't do the materials justice as THEY JUST CAN'T. They would have to publish the whole books, or at least most of them. I think that if you see the sample pages and something *clicks* for you, it will probably work wonderfully. If you look at them and say.. hmmm, what is this?... it could go either way, and if you look at it and say BLECH! you probably won't like it at all. It is not as childish as it looks. It is more whimsical. Isn't the whole point of "Classical Education" not as many subjects, but doing those subjects very deeply? MCT gets down to the meat of the english language, sometimes it might come across as simplistic, but this is the framework on which to hang everything you learn from then on. Isn't reducing something to it's foundation and figuring it out, and WHY it is that way, important? I have learned all the little bits of grammar/ english that I seemed to have totally missed in school. And I went to a very oofty snoofty private school. I would never expect everyone to like any ONE program. Also all our kids are different and learn and respond in different ways. Vive la difference! korin must try to get my kids to do some math, right now they are playing with the hose!

Don't assume that your kids aren't gifted. First of all, if your gut tells you they are, they probably are. Grade level & ability have nothing to do with it... and as many TG kids become under-achievers, or are "twice exceptional" (gifted in some areas, LDs in others) it becomes even harder to gauge. I don't want this to turn into a gifted or not gifted discussion... but my understanding is that most school gifted programs usually consist of these factors... more work (not necessarily "better" work, just a higher level, but still usually busywork) or helping the teacher teach the other kids. It is rarely about meeting their intellectual needs. People assume that being gifted means that everything is easy and you are better off. It usually is far more difficult. It is also not very glamorous as many TaG kids have intense emotional lives, and get frustrated easily (especially when they are perfectionists.) Just as with a child with a specific Learning Disability should have a curriculum that takes that into consideration, so should gifted kids... it is NOT just a matter of bumping them up a grade level. It is needing a different way of presenting the info. That is why MCT is so different. It is presented in a way that is more likely to speak to a gifted kid, it also sort of assumes that they are able to understand it... not assume that they need to be drilled and beaten over the head with something. Having been a gifted kid myself, raising two gifted kids (both VERY different!) and being on the board of a gifted enrichment program.... I really see all the good and the real hardship of having/ being one of these kids. I would hope that first of all many of you know what I'm talking about, as you are living it... and secondly, those of you who don't have gifted kids, don't assume that it is like a cake walk and a bed of roses. We need to really try to find appropriate, adequate material for our kids just like you, or someone who's kid has severe LDs. It can be very hard. All that being said (I could go on for days) I do not even believe in testing for Giftedness. If you HS you definitely don't need to, unless you want to get into Davidson or EPGY, and what knowledge you gain from it is probably not worth the $$. But everyone is different and it might be good for you. If you plan on sending your kids to school at some point, it might be good... but this is a HS board, so..... ;) if you ever have any TaG questions, you should google Hoagie's. Korin

OK.. I have Junior HIstory 1-3 and Book 1 of SYRWLH. Jr. 1-2 are pretty broad. Just a few british references, regarding Hardian's wall and Claudius' invasion of Britain. Jr book 3 is mostly British history. SYRWLH 1, IS British history. 1066-1500. I will assume that the higher level books would be too. I LOVE the Jr. books, but will wait before moving on in the higher level. If you have no further interest in British history you should be fine not bothering with it, although I love the different point of view. It has prompted me into looking at Italian history books for schools. hope that helps. Korin

I wrote a really long response to a few different questions offline last night and finished it this morning... and now I don't feel I can post it! ARG!:tongue_smilie: I think that reason that I (and many) are so oogly about MCT is that it is so different from the typical curriculum we all come across. There are many of us who (like me) struggle on a daily basis to "re-translate" some programs into a style that we can manage. MCT is one that I just immediately GET. I appreciate it all the more for that reason. I am going to C & P what I wrote about scheduling/typical day/ TM .... This might add another level to understanding what others have said about the subject. :001_smile: I typed this out from the Teacher sections in the back of Paragraph Town, the 4th/5th grade book, which you would do AFTER grammar town. I hope that it will lend some sort of clarity to "how" the whole thing works. You would first read the text part of the book with/ to your kids... discussing it with them to gauge their understanding and just have a nice time with it . No pressure. Utilize the discussion bubbles on various pages, they are useful. Spend a few weeks on this, or a few days... it is up to you and your kids. Then you would go back through it using the story and what the story covers to do the lessons below. Part 1 is discussion again (with occasional writing ideas if you want to make them ones...) that you can supplement with the practice series. There is only ONE pratice book per level. Then you go to part two of the teacher section, going back through text as needed. It is my opinion that you never need to do ALL the work, as long as the kids understand the basic concepts well enough. You can skip them as you feel the need, but on the whole they are all so good, that you should try them... but don't feel pressured if it just isn't working right then, or if it is hard for your kid to grasp right away. They will eventually get it, and staying stuck on something just to finish it defeats the basic premise of the whole program, IMHO. Teacher Section part 1: The Launch "Part One of the Teacher Section extends through the first reading of the book, and provides the important foundation of sentence grammar and paragraph elements that the student will need fo rthe elaborate paragraph exercises of Part Two." Lesson number and subject. Chapter and pages of Chapter used for the lesson. Chapter summary. Key Concept. Suggested approach. Supplemental Content (i.e. concunctions). Open-ended, Socratic Discussion Questions Suggested by the content. Review. Lesson one four level analysis (and explanation). Paragraph lab: various topic. (this can be used as an actual writing asignment, or it can be imagined as a writing assignment. It is more to get the student thinking about writing). Teacher section Part 2: Extended Practice "Part Two of the Teacher Section consolidates the knowledge of Part One and Provides extended opportunities to apply the knowledge, thereby strengthening comprehension and internalization". Lesson number and subject (i.e. Expository paragraphs). Text review. Key concept. Suggested approach. Supplemental content. Open-ended Socratic Question. Lesson punctuation as a function of grammar. Four level analysis. Paragraph lab with assignment and model. Each of these subjects have a few paragraphs or exersises for each. I wouldn't suggest doing them all in one "lesson", they seem to be grouped more as subject lessons... it might take a week or more to finish one lesson well. Now, I am in the middle of Paragraph Town, but as we had a great time with Grammar/Sentence Island (and my kids are on the reluctant writing end of thing right now) I have not delved too far into this part of the program. I also know that I won't follow it exactly. I am a very relaxed HSer and I try not to get bogged down by an artificial timeline. My kids will finish it when they have understood it, sometimes it will be simple and quick... othertimes it will take much L O N G E R. So I am not a good person to ask about "what a lesson looks like " or some similar vein of questions. Consider that all the components of the program are not scripted in the typical way, and they are not split up into managable daily chunks, but subject/ concept chunks, you must make those lesson length decisions yourself. If your kids are really loving it, keep going, if they are having trouble... take it slowly. The whole program is based on a different model than most, so it might seem weird if certain things aren't addressed at a time you think it should be... but trust me MCT will get to it. Korin

Shawna did a very good job explaining, but I add my bit as I did the Island level and am in the middle of Town. First of all, so you (and anyone else reading this thread is not confused) in the first series (Island, Town, Voyage & their poetry and vocab counterparts) you only need the TM with the exception of practice books. The student should have their own copy of the student practice book. In the higher level books (magic lens, WWW) you would need the student books and the HOMESCHOOL TM, not the regular TM. I hear they are different and the HS one is cheaper. The point of the books, is to introduce grammar, poetry, vocab etc. in a very different fashion than they typically are. I enjoy reading the books aloud, we have good discussions about the content. The intro book (like grammar island, grammar town) is not meant to last very long. It lays the foundation for what the other books solidify. Now, part of the reason this series is so good for gifted kids is that it is written in a way that assumes you might actually have a brain, and that you don't need to have things jammed into your head a thousand times. It also engages actual thinking, not memorization. It doesn't get bogged down with extras either. It presents the most basic information in an elegant and engaging fashion, that your kids are then able to hang more complicated language onto. TaG kids think in a different way than the average, and most curriculum is not written in a way that can engage their very intense and active brains. It isn't that these books are "advanced" or anything, it is that they are written *specifically* to appeal to the differently wired TAG brain. That is why the Island series is graded as gifted 3rd, regular 4th. I would say that ANY child will get a LOT out of these books (as they are awesome), but many TaG kids will be VERY happy with them, especially kids with a strong visual sense. My kids really also enjoy the stories. This is actually the one curriculum choice that I will never leave AND gush about to other people. Even people who are not HSers. MCT obviously loves the English language and his joy really shines through. It helps also, if you or your kids are visual learners, as they are VERY visual books. The poetry books are actually the most visual in terms of helping express a point, and I wish that I had those books when I was younger. I personally thought that Building Langauge was the weakest of all the books so far. But that is mostly for personal reasons that probably aren't relevant to anyone else. :) I think that Caesar's English is the most brilliant bit of curriculum I have come across, with the Island, Town books a close second. I suggest that you join the MCTLA yahoo group and browse the archived messages and ask questions there, as not only are there many people more experienced with MCT materials than me, but Michael Clay Thompson and Dr. Tom Kemnitz regularly answer questions themselves. I know that this curriculum will not be as great for everyone as it is for me, but I personally can't say enough about it. As far as your actual "application" of concepts, look at the back of the TMs for suggested activites, the 4 level sentence analysis in the practice books. I also make up my own stuff. Caesar's English has it's own built in work too, and I use the vocab and sentences from it as copywork. good luck! Korin

I didn't realize that would happen w/ prismacolors. MAybe it's because we are careful with them and have carpet in the one room or they use them in their beds. Anyway, my husband (professional illustrator) sharpens his prismacolors with an exactoknife. I have been having this problem lately with REGULAR pencils! korin

I don't have time to answer what I can about this, I will try tomorrow.... Which level are you talking about? Junior History 1, 2, 3 or So You Really Want to Learn History? Will look at what I have gone through tonight if I can and glean an answer you. Korin