Measuring with a ruler....Help? Update at #26

[OneStepAtATime]

DD seems to be getting fractions in measuring with volume pretty well.  And she can add fractions and recognize fractions when dividing up shapes (like dividing a pizza into slices).  And she can use a ruler to the nearest half inch.  And can use a ruler in centimeters and millimeters.  She gets fractions as a concept and her ability to work with money and decimals has come a LOOOONG way.

 

But she gets totally mucked up using a ruler to measure to the nearest quarter.  Anything smaller than that is a total loss, too.  I have tried so many different ways to help her see the markings on the ruler and what they mean.  The words and the markings just don't seem to have any connection for her at all.  Why can she measure to the half inch without any issues at all, and can measure to the nearest cm or mm, but not to the nearest quarter inch?  At this point I have no idea how to help her.  Suggestions?

[Mukmuk]

Sounds like a visual processing issue. Ds has this. We've worked on it, but it still takes him a few seconds to figure it out. Ditto telling the time.

 

I have to run and will respond later. VT says practice!!??!! Not to helpful I know!

[wendyroo]

I would have your daughter make her own ruler out of card stock.

 

Cut out a piece 4" by about 1.5".

Tell her it is exactly 4" long and challenge her to mark the inches by folding it without using a ruler.

 

Okay, how can she mark half inches?  Fold each inch in half.  Mark them.

Quarter inches?  Let her figure out how to do it.  Mark them.

 

If she is marking them all the same, point out that it is hard to read a ruler if the markings are indistinguishable.  Talk about the convention of making progressively smaller marks for more precise measurements.

 

Eighth inches...probably can't fold too well, but mark them as the middle of the quarters.

What would come in the middle of the eighths?

 

Then, have her match her ruler up against several actual rulers...how do they mark their halves, quarters, eighths?  Talk about what makes some easier to read and others more confusing.  Try to compare several different types if possible like sewing rulers, retractable measuring tapes (which may mark studs and other things), etc.

 

Wendy

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks wendyroo.  I appreciate it.  

[Pen]

If she were in most countries in the world, measuring in mm's would be good. Can it be enough here?

[OneStepAtATime]

If she were in most countries in the world, measuring in mm's would be good. Can it be enough here?

Unfortunately, I don't think so since most of the U.S. still uses standard instead of metric.  But maybe somebody more knowledgeable than I can answer this.  I was just thinking, besides the materials we are using requiring this knowledge (which I could have her skip if we had to), wouldn't there be many instances IRL as an adult that she would need to use the same measurement system as the country she lives in?

 

I wish this were true, though.  Metric makes so much more sense to her.

[wendyroo]

Unfortunately, I don't think so since most of the U.S. still uses standard instead of metric.  But maybe somebody more knowledgeable than I can answer this.  I was just thinking, besides the materials we are using requiring this knowledge (which I could have her skip if we had to), wouldn't there be many instances IRL as an adult that she would need to use the same measurement system as the country she lives in?

 

I would think the answer is a resounding yes.  This country runs on the imperial system of measurement; repairmen talk in inches, books talk in inches, even doctors often talk in inches (though one would hope they're equally fluent in millimeters).

 

She will need inches for cooking and crafting and home improvement.  When standing at the office supply store deciding if the 2 5/8" mailing labels are wide enough.  When conveying to a repairman the size of the chip in her windshield.  When listening to the people on the radio tell her how much snow to expect.

 

Wendy

[geodob]

That raises an interesting question about the difference between how metric and imperial are concieved of?

Particularly in regard to math difficulties and Dyscalculia?

Having grown up in Australia, where we made the change from imperial to metric, when I was about 10.

I am equally familiar with both.

Though this makes me consider the difference between Dyscalculia in the metric and imperial system?

Which makes me think about doing a study, that compares Dyscalculics usage of metric and imperial?

Whether they find the metric system less confusing to work with?

 

Where the imperial system, with it's overlaying of different base number systems, for inches, feet, yards, miles?

Is really a system made to create confusion?

Which raises a question about the use of the metric system, as an accommodation for Dyscalculia?

[OneStepAtATime]

That would be an interesting study, geodob.  Because while NO measurement system has been truly "easy" for DD, metric makes more sense to her.  If we never had to deal with the Imperial system, only metric, I wonder how much of her troubles with measurement would have resolved themselves much earlier?  

 

If we didn't live in a country where the Imperial (or Standard as I always was taught to call it) system was used, I would drop it in a hot second.  DD has enough issues without adding this one since there is a perfectly good (and much better IMHO) system available.

[wendyroo]

Standard as I always was taught to call it

 

I call it Imperial as a small act of pro-metric propaganda.  There is nothing "standard" about the system we in this country are stuck with.  It is not the standard in the world and the units are about as unstandard as they could be.  Metric is the system of the people, Imperial is a throwback system "of or relating to an empire or an emperor".

 

Long Live the Rebellion!!   :laugh:

 

Wendy

[OneStepAtATime]

I call it Imperial as a small act of pro-metric propaganda.  There is nothing "standard" about the system we in this country are stuck with.  It is not the standard in the world and the units are about as unstandard as they could be.  Metric is the system of the people, Imperial is a throwback system "of or relating to an empire or an emperor".

 

Long Live the Rebellion!!   :laugh:

 

Wendy

:lol:  :hurray:  :hurray:  :iagree:  :iagree:

[OneStepAtATime]

Sounds like a visual processing issue. Ds has this. We've worked on it, but it still takes him a few seconds to figure it out. Ditto telling the time.

 

I have to run and will respond later. VT says practice!!??!! Not to helpful I know!

I wonder about this.  I am so confused about DD.  She is so visually oriented and yet some things trip her up that I just cannot nail down the cause of very effectively.

 

But maybe it is connecting visual input with the words and their meanings....I know when I am talking her through it there is no comprehension.  Using a real ruler and measuring a lot of things finally got her to be able to measure to the half inch.  Beyond that it is total gobbledygook.  

 

But she is finally measuring really well with cm and mm.  And remembering how many mms are in a cm and how many cms are in a m.  Etc.  

 

I wish we could just do metric...

[Mukmuk]

I wonder about this. I am so confused about DD. She is so visually oriented and yet some things trip her up that I just cannot nail down the cause of very effectively.

 

But maybe it is connecting visual input with the words and their meanings....I know when I am talking her through it there is no comprehension. Using a real ruler and measuring a lot of things finally got her to be able to measure to the half inch. Beyond that it is total gobbledygook.

 

 

The statements above are familiar to me, but I don't want to draw parallels from individual statements, OneStep. Maybe you can see if this description is like your DD. Ds has both CAPD and VPD, and they both have impact on input/processing. By far the worse effect (in ds' case) is from vision. It's subtle, but it's all-pervasive.

 

I would describe ds as being a visual thinker, but with visual processing impairment, and my following description is full of contradictions. Here goes: he aced the visual portion of the WISC because it's easy for him to figure out shapes and manipulate them in his head. Legos used to be his life. But 2D objects on paper seem to befuddle him to varying degrees. He had the hardest time using a ruler to measure. The clock with two hands requires some hesitation, largely because of inability to tell spaces in between. Lately, he finally understood number lines- I'm not joking. What can I say, he's doing really well at Algebra 2! I held back starting geometry (he did great on Patty Paper, constructions, years ago- another contradiction!) but will have to do so eventually, after VT. I'm afraid he'll come up with some coping mechanism that will again make it seem like he's fine, but then the fundamental issue shows up at successively higher levels.

[PeterPan]

I suggest covert instruction: take up a quilting project over Christmas.  All the seams are 1/4", so she'll develop a more intuitive sense for what a 1/4" is.  http://www.ohfransson.com/oh_fransson/files/ninepatch_door_stop_tutorial.pdf  I made this one with dd several years ago and it's nice.

[PeterPan]

http://store.mathsolutions.com/product-info.php?Sizing-Up-Measurement-Series-pid275.html

[OneStepAtATime]

Oh, so cool, OhE. Thanks!  DD is really wanting to sew.  She learned how to make a skirt out of scrap cloth in one of her co-op classes but they did almost no measuring.  Love those ideas.  Thanks.

 

Mukmuk, that's interesting about your child being a visual thinker but with visual processing impairment.  DD can definitely manipulate 3D objects well in her head.  Far better than me, that's for sure.  But 2D representing 3D is a bit harder.  And clocks were such a challenge.  They still are, a bit, but not like before.  DD struggles with auditory instruction, too, so me trying to explain things to her frequently makes things harder.  I have to go slowly, give her a piece at a time to process.  Barton was such a blessing since it trained us both to work through reading/spelling/writing instruction with minimal verbal instruction.  

 

FWIW, she loves the Geometry she has been exposed to so far.

[Pen]

Unfortunately, I don't think so since most of the U.S. still uses standard instead of metric.  But maybe somebody more knowledgeable than I can answer this.  I was just thinking, besides the materials we are using requiring this knowledge (which I could have her skip if we had to), wouldn't there be many instances IRL as an adult that she would need to use the same measurement system as the country she lives in?

 

I wish this were true, though.  Metric makes so much more sense to her.

 

 

I don't know.

 

Doctors understand metric usually and so far as I know would be just as happy to use either system when talking. Most medicines are handled in metric and the scales and so on in offices usually have both choices available, and doctors get patient weight in kg's to be able to calculate things like grams per kg of a medicine...they tend to use pounds because it is what the patients are used to, not b/c they do not understand metric.

 

Many home thermometers give both choices--certainly she can get one that does and learn what is "normal" for a body in metric terms, or what is hot or cold for weather in metric terms. Plus I suppose she needs to understand temperature as the local forecasters might give it--that 110 deg. F will be very hot (though not above boiling for water), that 32 deg. F is freezing.

 

She'd buy gas in gallons, but there is not really anything a customer has to do with them usually, other than pay the bill, and the money is already in decimal system, pretty much...other than "quarters" etc. The pump does the measuring in all stations I've been in, whether it is petrol in metric or gallons in Imperial.

 

Cooking--most USA measuring cups I've seen in recent years are marked in both cups and also in metric on the other side, our tablespoon type things also have metric marks. Some of the best baking books I've seen use flour and other ingredients by mass in metric measurements rather than by volume in Imperial units--doing it by mass is supposed to give more consistent/accurate results. And I'd guess that it is possible to buy cookbooks meant for Australia or UK etc. that have metric for everything.

 

Likely some people on these forums can even guide you to good metric system cookbooks.

 

 

 

Probably the same is true for crafts or sewing etc., that she could either use books and instructions that have metric, or that she could do things where it is not to the 1/4 inch that she needs to measure, or the sort of thing where she takes a measuring tape and wraps it around, say the head where a hat goes, and then measures out the same amount on her felt, and does not need to use units at all.

 

Communicating with a workman might be a problem... I find communicating with workmen difficult, but not due to not being able to understand 1/4 inch measuring.   I don't know, maybe calling a few out of yellow pages and asking if they can work with someone who only deals in metric system would tell you the answer to that.  Even if they cannot, it is possible that being able to measure to the quarter inch is not something she would need to do--"I need a counter to go from here to there;" or "I want my freezer fixed;" might be enough.  

 

She might need to understand that 4 inches of snow is a lot more than 1/4 inch, but does she need to be able to precisely measure the 1/4 inch?

[OneStepAtATime]

I don't know, Pen.  Since I CAN measure correctly, I am honestly not certain how critical this skill is.  I just never had an issue with it.  

 

I will say, it comes in really handy when doing a remodel .  Even when the remodeler is doing the measuring, I remeasure for accurate layout, etc. because they can make costly mistakes in the design phase that are harder to correct later on.  BTDT.  Certainly when judging location of a potential new piece of furniture where there was little clearance I had to measure very precisely to determine if it would even fit where we needed it to go.  When I needed to get a glass table top for our coffee table the measurements I gave them had to be absolutely precise so it would fit exactly on top.  I would have had to pay a LOT of extra money for them to come measure.  I guess I could have hauled the coffee table to the glass company but I would have needed a lot of help to load the thing....Could I have gotten by without being able to measure to the nearest quarter inch or smaller in those instances?  Probably.  But I would have needed to rely on others to measure it for me.  I would hate for her to be dependent on others if she doesn't have to be.

 

On the flip side of that coin, DH has made it into a successful engineering career and he readily admits that measuring in the Imperial system has always been a challenge for him, too.  He does just fine.  He uses a laser measure for stuff at work.  It hasn't really been an issue here at home, either and he fixes stuff all the time.  (Although where he has hung pictures has been very interesting... :) ).  And I don't pull out a tape measure very often.  Rarely, in fact.  Just not a skill that is usually needed every day.  She could probably do o.k. without this skill.  There are so many other things that she needs more.

 

What DD and I have decided to do is let her keep working at speed in her CLE math, but she is skipping the measuring by ruler using the Imperial units parts while we tackle this skill in a more kinesthetic way (using suggestions upthread).  She will continue to work with metric and with Imperial for volume/temp/etc. since she is getting those.  I don't want to stall out in math over this one thing and neither does she.  If she ends up grasping this skill, great.  If not, well, she will just have to find ways to work around it.  

 

 

[geodob]

As a practical life skill, you could have her learn to do all measurements in metric.

But have ways to immediately convert it to imperial when required.

Where rulers and tapes that show both could be used.

Which would just involve looking above or below on the ruler/tape, to see its equivalent.

But a simpler way, might be to just have a phone ap, and the metric can typed in and converted to imperial.

 

Though you can get aps, that can give an answer in words rather than numbers.

One foot, three and five eighth inches.

Which would make it much easier to tell someone else a measurement, correctly.

[Heathermomster]

The only times I care about 1/4 inches are when I sew quilt tops, measure windows for curtains, blinds, and rugs, and measure my kids' height.  My most favorite sewing machine foot is the 1/4" foot.

 

Keep practicing with the measurement.  I just found this.  Your DD may just need more time to soak in all the math she has been catching up on. Of course, your DH gets by, so maybe he can teach her coping strategies.

[Heathermomster]

That raises an interesting question about the difference between how metric and imperial are concieved of?

Particularly in regard to math difficulties and Dyscalculia?

Having grown up in Australia, where we made the change from imperial to metric, when I was about 10.

I am equally familiar with both.

Though this makes me consider the difference between Dyscalculia in the metric and imperial system?

Which makes me think about doing a study, that compares Dyscalculics usage of metric and imperial?

Whether they find the metric system less confusing to work with?

 

Where the imperial system, with it's overlaying of different base number systems, for inches, feet, yards, miles?

Is really a system made to create confusion?

Which raises a question about the use of the metric system, as an accommodation for Dyscalculia?

I seem to recall a few years back when a very expensive space probe heading to Mars totally flubbed due to an imperial-metric conversion error.

 

Metric just makes sense.  Outside the prefixes, which are easily memorized with mnemonics or a Latin roots study, what else do you need to remember besides multiplying or dividing by ten?

 

The language of feet, inches, and miles makes no sense.  Yes, metric measurement would be ideal as an accommodation for dyscalculia.  Ironically, DS can measure.  He uses a ruler to help keep his drawings in scale.  DS recognizes that he must use a ruler.  

[geodob]

Though the Imperial system, also has a history of 'Roman Numerals'?

Where European math was saved, when 'Arabic Numerals' were introduced.

 

A major problem with Roman Numerals, is that they can't be used for multiplication or division?

XIV

x IIV

?

 

Not to mention Fractions?  Where perhaps you could imagine adding 2 fractions, with Roman Numerals?

 

III/X + IV/V= ?

 

Though I do wonder if one day, time might go metric?

With 10 hours in a day, each hour having a 100 minutes, and 100 seconds in each minute?

 

Under our current time system, we have 86,400 seconds a day.

Where a metric time system, would give us 100,000 seconds a day.

[maize]

I actually never learned to measure parts of an inch until I was doing it with my kids in math. I can't remember ever needing to do so; I probably could have figured it out but I really had never paid attention to the way inches are divided on a ruler.

 

I grew up largely outside the US, but have lived here most of my adult life. I really can't think of a situation where I have needed to measure more accurately than a half inch and couldn't have just used metric.

[Heathermomster]

Though the Imperial system, also has a history of 'Roman Numerals'?

Where European math was saved, when 'Arabic Numerals' were introduced.

 

A major problem with Roman Numerals, is that they can't be used for multiplication or division?

XIV

x IIV

?

 

Not to mention Fractions?  Where perhaps you could imagine adding 2 fractions, with Roman Numerals?

 

III/X + IV/V= ?

 

Though I do wonder if one day, time might go metric?

With 10 hours in a day, each hour having a 100 minutes, and 100 seconds in each minute?

 

Under our current time system, we have 86,400 seconds a day.

Where a metric time system, would give us 100,000 seconds a day.

Only if you slow down the rotation of the Earth.  My head hurts.  (Or is it speed up?)

[OneStepAtATime]

Thanks, everyone.  She did better today.  And was less frustrated.  We are going slowly with this.  She has had a lot of catching up to do, as mentioned up thread.  :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Just thought I would update to say DD can finally measure to 1/4" and actually seems to understand what she is doing.  Yeah!!!!

 

ETA:: Thanks for all the support and suggestions.  Really, really appreciate it.  :)