wendybern Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Dd17 wants very much to earn an R.N. and be an Army nurse. She is a very concrete thinker. She's doing very well with A&P and Chemistry this year, but the conceptual-thinking parts of Algebra 2 are hard for her. She can perform math operations just fine, but if she has to think through the what-and-why of a problem, she guesses or gives up (so word problems or anything requiring her to figure out the procedure are always difficult). She does not persevere or struggle to figure things out. So, strengths: memorization, concrete facts, loves A&P and is willing to work at it, tests well so will probably do fine on SATs, will be great in clinicals/hands-on aspects of training. Not so much: critical thinking. Could she make it into and through nursing school? What kind of extra support might she need? Thanks! Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Depending on the school, she will have to achieve a certain level of math. Pre-nursing is the #1 starting major at the community college where I work. And math is usually the class that trips them up, from what I've been told, but it's up there with A&P of course. I've known quite a few who have gotten through with a lot of tutoring and by picking a semester to do the math requirements where they had an easier load. Most college have tutoring available, but the ideal in your situation would be a staffed math lab with hours that work with her schedule because she may be in there a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 While the math in the nursing course requirements may be doable for her, I worry about admissions. Some nursing programs are highly competitive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Yes... as long as she is strong at basic calculations in her head (especially metric). I did through trig, but most of my classmates did statistics and that was enough for the ADN program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendybern Posted September 1, 2014 Author Share Posted September 1, 2014 G5052, that's why we're taking 2 years to do A&P at home before she gets to the college course, so she'll be well prepared and have a good vocabulary foundation. For math, a tutor is a great idea. Jane, yes, it is very competitive around here also. The school we are looking at has a point system, so we will be preparing for everything they count points on. Heather, we are just starting to work with metric a lot (for chemistry); I will let her know that is important. Thank you, all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyGirl Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Keep in mind too that it's not competitive everywhere. A dear friend is moving to live with us do she can go to nursing school out here where it's much easier to get in. It's a great school but we have a low population so there's simply less people applying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Absolutely. My college roommate who is an RN only took math through college algebra. I'm pretty sure that is still the math requirement in the BS/RN program through our local State U/hospital system. It is moderately competitive locally, but Julie is right, it varies by school, so find the right program for her and she'll be fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 She'll probably be fine...but the military won't take her as a nurse unless she has her BSN. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 She'll probably be fine...but the military won't take her as a nurse unless she has her BSN. Stefanie I knew someone who worked as an Army nurse and she started out as an enlisted medic. She then used the GI Bill to pay for her BSN. So that might be an option your DD might want to explore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendybern Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 Her other interest (on alternate days) is to be a Paramedic. Do you know if your friend was already trained as a paramedic before enlisting? I think that would be a good option for her also. I knew someone who worked as an Army nurse and she started out as an enlisted medic. She then used the GI Bill to pay for her BSN. So that might be an option your DD might want to explore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetC Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Just. Wanted to point out, the math she would use as a nurse is all story problems. Dosage for XYZ is 100mcg per kg of body weight. The patient says he weighs 175 pounds. How much is the correct dose of XYZ? She's going to have to learn to do word problems without giving up. It doesn't have to be calculus, but ratios, proportions, and unit conversions are all very relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Her other interest (on alternate days) is to be a Paramedic. Do you know if your friend was already trained as a paramedic before enlisting? I think that would be a good option for her also. She was a fellow Army wife and this was over a decade ago so unfortunately I don't know/remember the details of her story. Sorry! My brother trained to be an EMT when he was in high school so at least in my home state, the minimum age for that was 16 and a high school junior. I think she might have to be 18 to take the national certification test if she wants a paid job as an EMT (my hometown had a volunteer fire department except for the fire chief so they were happy to take responsible high school students). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyGirl Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 She'll probably be fine...but the military won't take her as a nurse unless she has her BSN. Stefanie There is a major shift in the civilian sector too right now that employers are starting to require BSN as well. It's not an instantaneous change but I'd imagine anyone who hasn't even started a program yet will be required to have BSN for most decent jobs. Short story: plan for a BSN regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 I knew someone who worked as an Army nurse and she started out as an enlisted medic. She then used the GI Bill to pay for her BSN. So that might be an option your DD might want to explore. My husband doesn't recommend this for several reasons, but especially if she happens to have high military aspirations. Officers that were prior enlisted have a stigma. Also, there is no net financial benefit to enlisting first. A better option would be to seek military scholarship/ROTC where the military pays upfront for a commitment on the back end. Alternatively, if she goes in already in possession of the degree the military will pay off any outstanding student loans. My DH was enlisted and went to nursing school after getting out of the Navy, went on to get a 4 year degree in biology and re-approached the military about going in as a nurse. They told him no unless he was BSN even with his 10+ years CCU experience. I was a unit secretary in a hospital for 7 years. Between the two of us we know a *lot* of people who have done the nursing school process. This is a little more than you asked for, but If we had to recommend a course of action for a high school student interested in nursing it would be this: 1. Volunteer at a local hospital while she finishes high school and start getting to know the nurses and managers. If you can find a shadow program that would be even better, but most of them have disappeared because of HIPPA. 2. When she turns 18 seek employment at a local hospital while taking the 2 years of prerequisites for nursing school. DO NOT go get an aide license or position. A unit secretary position or desk position would be better. She would want whatever job has her entering doctors orders or interacting with the charts and being generally at the desk. This would put her in a much better position to make connections about the things she'd be learning in nursing school. You get familiar with the patterns that you see in the treatments of the various conditions and medications that get routinely ordered for various conditions and their standard dosages. You are at the desk so that you can be around to listen in on the discussions between docs/nurses about a patient's care or the nurses discussing their nursing school assignments and if there happens to be a friendly doc around on a slow day, they are usually more than happy to answer questions and discuss various x-rays/test results/treatment options. The key is being able to be around for the opportunities, which an aide is usually to busy for. The best thing, while she is still taking general classes, she can get a taste for the atmosphere and see if it really is something she wants to do. 3. Apply to any and all nursing schools, BSN and RN vocational programs in order to get in. Even if the program is vocational program, she can get the license and then immediately apply for a transitional program that will give her the BSN. Those are usually 2 year programs but many of them at that point are a combination of distance ed, physical classroom, and clinical classes, she'd have to check with the military to see which programs would be acceptable though, which will allow her to work and gain experience as a nurse. 4. Once she has the BSN by whatever pathway is available, then she can approach the military. As for EMT and the enlist/medic pathway, my stepson was a medic in the navy. In the military he could do more than he could outside of it. They also train from the ground up, but in the military they don't have as much of a forgiving qualification process and if you don't for what ever reason make the cut, your pretty much out of luck. As far comparing EMT/nurse, they just are not equivalent, not in training and certainly not in pay. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 There is a major shift in the civilian sector too right now that employers are starting to require BSN as well. It's not an instantaneous change but I'd imagine anyone who hasn't even started a program yet will be required to have BSN for most decent jobs. Short story: plan for a BSN regardless. Not so much, or very dependent on your area. The push for BSN education of all nurses started in 1965 by the ANA when they took the stance that vocational nurses were technical nurses and BSN nurses were the professional nurses. My DH has been working on a "counter culture" nursing book for the last 10 years. He is firmly of the opinion that he was unable to be a good nurse until he learned he could dump about 50% of what he "learned" in nursing school and unnecessary sociopolitical memes. But anyway, yes, if there is any possible interest in any level of nursing management in the future, it would save much time and effort to go get the BSN as directly as possible. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 there is no net financial benefit to enlisting first. In the Army, junior officers with prior enlisted service made more money. Not tons, but given that brand-new junior officers make a relatively low salary, that few hundred extra dollars per month definitely helped those who got it. We didn't see any stigma against officer who were prior enlisted, but that's possible it was because most of the ones we knew had attended West Point and that was seen as more prestigious for the most part than ROTC (with the exception of the 3 officers who were graduates of MIT, Stanford, and Dartmouth). The ones who were OCS grads were definitely bottom of the pecking order, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 In the Army, junior officers with prior enlisted service made more money. Not tons, but given that brand-new junior officers make a relatively low salary, that few hundred extra dollars per month definitely helped those who got it. We didn't see any stigma against officer who were prior enlisted, but that's possible it was because most of the ones we knew had attended West Point and that was seen as more prestigious for the most part than ROTC (with the exception of the 3 officers who were graduates of MIT, Stanford, and Dartmouth). The ones who were OCS grads were definitely bottom of the pecking order, however. But could they get as far in the long run as someone who went in with officer status? My DH believes they can't. I have no direct experience and am just relaying his opinion. And honestly, depending on the girl's military leadership aspirations, it may not even matter, but if it does it may also not be worth taking the chance if advancement could come down to a particular higher officer's prejudice. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunchyGirl Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Not so much, or very dependent on your area. The push for BSN education of all nurses started in 1965 by the ANA when they took the stance that vocational nurses were technical nurses and BSN nurses were the professional nurses. My DH has been working on a "counter culture" nursing book for the last 10 years. He is firmly of the opinion that he was unable to be a good nurse until he learned he could dump about 50% of what he "learned" in nursing school and unnecessary sociopolitical memes. But anyway, yes, if there is any possible interest in any level of nursing management in the future, it would save much time and effort to go get the BSN as directly as possible. Stefanie Interesting! I love historical context stuff :) My nursing friends keep mentioning that despite the shortage, they're being told it's about to become very very difficult if not impossible to get hired as a new grad by a major hospital system without a BSN. I didn't realize there was such a lengthy history behind that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendybern Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 Wow, thanks everyone for all of this info! I really appreciate your time in sharing it. Lots I didn't know. Stefanie, very interesting and lots of good ideas, many thanks. Wendy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 There are medical dosage calculation workbooks. Find one, have her work through it a bit, and see if it seems doable. My guess would be that if she's handling the calculations in chemistry without problems, then she'd manage. It isn't difficult math, just exacting. It is true that both the military and many hospitals require BSN these days. That doesn't mean ASN is the wrong path if that's where she can get in. Getting an ASN first and then doing an RN to BSN program can end up being cheaper than a straight BSN program, and you can work as an RN during the BSN program. I have an ASN, not a whole lot of experience, and more work than I know what to do with, though the local hospital won't hire me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 There are medical dosage calculation workbooks. Find one, have her work through it a bit, and see if it seems doable. My guess would be that if she's handling the calculations in chemistry without problems, then she'd manage. It isn't difficult math, just exacting. It is true that both the military and many hospitals require BSN these days. That doesn't mean ASN is the wrong path if that's where she can get in. Getting an ASN first and then doing an RN to BSN program can end up being cheaper than a straight BSN program, and you can work as an RN during the BSN program. I have an ASN, not a whole lot of experience, and more work than I know what to do with, though the local hospital won't hire me. Oh, yes, I second that, go get a pharmacy tech certification study book (could probably find one at a used book store but I got mine off Amazon years ago) and let her spend a year working thorough it. I can't believe I forgot about that since I did that to get a pharmacy certification. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wendybern Posted September 2, 2014 Author Share Posted September 2, 2014 Dosage calculation workbooks: never knew such a thing existed. Thanks, I will look for one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdel Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Dosage calculation workbooks: never knew such a thing existed. Thanks, I will look for one! The pharmacy tech certification books are more than that. You can get just dose calculation workbooks, but the certification books also teach basic pharmacology, drug classification, prescription terminology and the legalities behind dispensing/ordering drugs. It might be something to add to your A&P, spend the last semester working on the pharm tech book. Stefanie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 As for paramedic vs. RN - I would consider RN more of a career path. RNs earn a whole lot more on average and have more diverse career options, including more options that are less physically demanding should that ever become an issue. Paramedic is not necessarily a bad option for someone starting straight out of high school, especially for someone who hopes to go into the military. There are paramedic to RN programs, and I'd think that path would provide excellent preparedness for someone interested in going into critical care or field nursing, though it's not quite as quick and direct as going straight to RN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Most of the people that graduated with me did the ADN, got licensed as RNs, and then went to work and did an ADN to BSN program once a week for about a year. During that year they were taking the the BSN program, they were working and getting paid. Several did an extra semester in the middle of our four clinical semesters and got licenses as LPNs and worked in nursing home the second year of our clinical program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ocelotmom Posted September 2, 2014 Share Posted September 2, 2014 Most of the people that graduated with me did the ADN, got licensed as RNs, and then went to work and did an ADN to BSN program once a week for about a year. During that year they were taking the the BSN program, they were working and getting paid. Several did an extra semester in the middle of our four clinical semesters and got licenses as LPNs and worked in nursing home the second year of our clinical program. Part of me wishes I'd gone that route, especially since I ended up in a nursing home anyways! We had a nursing home a few blocks from where I lived when I was doing my RN program, so I could have gotten us into a better financial position earlier, plus some good experience. But going LPN seemed like it would have added several years on to my schooling. In some areas they have programs that let you take the NCLEX-PN and get licensed as an LPN halfway through the program. I think that's pretty ideal - earlier job options without extra schooling! Apparently, at least where I live, RN students can be hired as apprentices in effective an LPN capacity after their first year. I haven't actually seen this happen recently - it may be something that happens more when the job market isn't tight. When considering LPN vs RN, be aware that LPN to RN programs aren't widely available in all parts of the country. The LPNs I work with feel very stuck because there aren't any local bridge programs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I couldn't tell from your post whether she is a junior or senior. If she is a junior, doing a statistics class next year would allow her to practice some of the algebra she is learning this year and help her to see more of the practical applications of algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephanie Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Dd17 wants very much to earn an R.N. and be an Army nurse. She is a very concrete thinker. She's doing very well with A&P and Chemistry this year, but the conceptual-thinking parts of Algebra 2 are hard for her. She can perform math operations just fine, but if she has to think through the what-and-why of a problem, she guesses or gives up (so word problems or anything requiring her to figure out the procedure are always difficult). She does not persevere or struggle to figure things out. So, strengths: memorization, concrete facts, loves A&P and is willing to work at it, tests well so will probably do fine on SATs, will be great in clinicals/hands-on aspects of training. Not so much: critical thinking. Could she make it into and through nursing school? What kind of extra support might she need? Thanks! Wendy I'm an RN and I was NOT strong in math at all. I only completed through Alg. 2 in High School because at the time that was all that was really needed, and it wasn't as competitive. I took College Algebra once in college and nursing school taught me how to do calculations. Aside from basic math/ratios/conversions, there's not that much more difficulty to it. I agree with focus needing to be on making sure her grades are competitive enough to get into nursing school. It was difficult when I entered (1996), and has increased in difficulty, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 I'm agreeing with previous poster(s) who observed that the nursing field has become more competitive. My d-i-l applied to nursing school with a 3.8 GPA, but made the waiting list only. One year later she was accepted, and this past May, she was graduated with her B.S.N. From her experiences along the way -- (She worked as a CNA in a prominent children's hospital while she was in school.) -- and from her observations, I disagree with the p.o.v. expressed that nursing school education is a barrier to good practice. With regard to a military path, I would consult a hiring/recruiting office for the branch in which she is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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